Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

[Sebby19]

With a quick count of the chart: 90 out of 100 treasures so far.

Here's a quick comparison on the emphasis of money and treasure in the 4 main games. 'VB Wario land' and 'Wario Land: Shake It!' aren't here because I haven't played them
Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land: 40 levels, with 15 Treasures. 2 minigames

• Money = 3/5

• Treasures = 2/5

Wario Land II: 51 levels, with 50 Treasures. 3 minigames (1 being unlockable)

• Money = 4/5

• Treasures = 3/5

Wario Land 3: 25 levels(+Final Boss), with 100 treasures. 1 Minigame

• Money = 1/5

• Treasures = 5/5

Wario Land 4: 18 levels(+6 bosses), with 12 treasures (treasures are boss rewards only, and not revealed until the credits!). 3 Minigames

• Money = 3/5

• Treasures = 1/5

[Implo]

The jumping challenge room was really fun to play. Wish there would be more these places in the game.

Out of curiosity, how many chests has raocow unlocked at this point?

Together with today video - 90.

The problem with Music Coins is there is no difficulty curve (like early levels Coins are easy and late game levels Coins are hard). No, it's randomized. The visible coins are easy to get and some levels have only them. These levels are just go everywhere and redo everything, sometimes do some interesting gimmick and they are actually fun to gather. But most of the levels have a problem with one coin hidden out of the view. They are usually indicated, but first you must understand this indication. If you don't, then it will change into "do everything on everything" search. That's basically running multiple times through the whole level. That's tedious and really tiresome. If raocow decide to gather Music Coins after he forget about this game, then there is no chance for him to notice indication and he will have a problem on remembering what he can do with everything.

In other words it's like starting a game from playing a postgame level that you never played before. Because I consider Music Coins as ultimate postgame challenge.

[Rixithechao]

I'm not sure why everyone says it would be boring and tedious to watch. raocow does have the magic of editing. I'd assume he would edit things like a Dragon-Coin run.

So, like, when raocow does dragon coin runs through the levels he's already been through in other LPs, he usually does a supercut of the moments he collects them. Are you suggesting the last stretch of the LP be that 25 times? Because that seems like the only way such videos could avoid dragging on past the point where everyone's lost interest for reasons others have already stated.

Furthermore, such heavily-trimmed videos wouldn't accurately reflect the tedium raocow, the one who's actually playing the game, would be experiencing during that stretch of the LP, with the added work of editing the recording afterward. And folks have already said the reward is underwhelming even before it was finally spoiled out of frustration with you continuing to build it up as something that'd validate the entire experience.

Can you tell me with full sincerity that you'd enjoy going through all of that effort knowing that the end result isn't worth it?

Can you honestly say that you wouldn't be at all soured by the reward if you did do it completely blind?

rao isn't The Completionist. 100%ing games isn't his job description, he's an entertainer first and foremost. And a big part of that entertainment is being able to share his enjoyment of the games he plays. When he does something out of 100% completion obligation rather than genuine interest or engagement, that makes it harder for a lot of us to enjoy his content too.

That consideration for raocow is an important part of the equation, Sebby, and throughout this LP you really haven't demonstrated much of that kind of empathy.

[Sebby19]

I know the reward is lackluster. But I'm more focused on the act of collecting, then the end goal. Unless there was no end goal, then I'd question why the're even there.

And I wasn't trying to build them up as if what's at the end was amazing. The only reason that I mentioned they even do something was to make the point that raocow has done things for even less. The only reason he bothered with the VIP coins in VIP4 was because of the black circle in the corner of the map, even knowing there was no 100% bonus. Which he stated in video.

And compared to the VIP coins, these Musical Coins are a cakewalk. Ofcourse, it's a bit late to start now, we're only 3-4 vids away from the end. But now rao has given an answer, and a plan, I'll go with that. Even if it's 4 years from now.

And I never mentioned the reward is lackluster because even vague statements seemed to be deemed as spoilers, so I cut short there.
Happy? Bleh, ofcourse not.

[J. J. W. Mezun]

088. E6 The East Crater - Red

Skyless day ~
a snake offers fire in
the volcano.


089. W6 The West Crater - Green

Come its time,
the familiar fire ~
chilly night.


090. E3 Castle of Illusions - Blue

Sunny day ~
in vacant castle
sleeps the owl.

-------------------

"Castle of Illusions"'s blue treasure is 1 o' the hardest & raocow almost does it 1st try. It's lucky he took the right path: that treasure's devious in putting a fork there. When I was young I would oft forget that the blue chest is in that other room, so I would waste time trying to go through the harder top route in expectation that it would lead me to the blue chest, only to find

a stupid music coin

. That's if I didn't forget which path led to the key in the 1st place.

I don't think Wario Land 3 gets better as it nears the end just 'cause you're mo' powerful, but also 'cause the level design is just generally mo' interested. The 1st few treasures only challenge you to figure out how to move from 1 place to the other & are mostly a linear path from level to level, while the later treasures have cleverer puzzles & mo' exotic ways to unlock treasures, like the octopus food or keycards that make an enemy accessible.

"The East Crater"'s red treasure is weird. That part where you have to throw the enemy so that you can reach it on the other side without making it despawn or bounce back is particularly awkward, since this game has weird bumpy physics. I feel like this is a much less frustrating version o' those gimmicks that are clever in theory but awkward implementation, as oft seen in, say, Donkey Kong Country 3 or a lot o' rom hacks.

Part o' the puzzle is trying to disorient the player by making them move round to different parts in the same room, similar to the green treasure in "The Warped Void"; but here it doesn't fit the volcano theme. ( Then 'gain, "Cave of Flames" had that random warp puzzle for its gray treasure,

& "The East Crater" will have 1 mo' warp somewhere

). I have mixed feelings 'bout "The East Crater", 'cause it has some o' the cleverest treasures from a technical standard, but it has no cohesive theme. That isn't too surprising since this game with a'least 4 volcano levels, & a few mo' cave levels, stretches the level theme thin. Someone on the development team absolutely adored volcanoes.

[SAJewers]

more golf please

[Grounder]

we must ban raocow from the talkhaus, discordhaus, youtube, and the patreon server. it's the only way to make sure he doesn't get spoiled ever while keeping his body intact!

/s

[Paragraph]

I've been quiet for the first two treasures of the level because they are FINE I GUESS and raocow didn't have much trouble, and also people kept calling it their favourite level for some reason, but I'm just gonna come out now and say it: Above the Clouds sucks so goddamn much, I HATE this garbage-tier level so much. Whenever I think about Wario Land 3, all the annoyance and frustration I felt in it just keeps rushing into my brain and kills any goodwill I have for all the nice things the game does.

Imagine going all the way up there just to have to re-do the minigame aaaall the way at the bottom, then going up there AGAIN, and to get the key you do the zombie walk. It's infuriating.

[Sebby19]

@Grounder: If we ban rao from the talkhaus, he can still view the forum as a guest

Only 1 more golf minigame to go!

[Leet]

You know, Grounder, if you disagree with the spoiler treatment, you could argue against it by talking about the ways that you disagree with it instead of just making the same hyperbolic single issue wank post every page

[Sebby19]

You know, Grounder, if you disagree with the spoiler treatment, you could argue against it by talking about the ways that you disagree with it instead of just making the same hyperbolic single issue wank post every page

A) I don't think that is what he's was doing, and B) Are you trying to cause another fight with those last few words? Everything after the 'it' is inflammatory.

[Leet]

Oops sorry I forgot to be passive aggressive instead of direct so that it doesn't "cause fights". I'll just make a vague post about it every once in a while and nobody will be able to definitively call me out on it despite it being vastly more obnoxious

To be clear I meant exactly what I said. I definitely think the way spoilers has been handled is open to some criticism. I would like to see that criticism, instead of just "everyone is more sensitive than me" funny meme jokes.

[CrappyBlueLuigi]

leet is like one of the few people i've seen outside of social media who's willing to directly address that online culture super enables passive-aggressiveness as the default for expressing irritation anywhere and how nobody's feelings ever get resolved because A) passive-aggressive-acting people, for whatever reasons they have, continue to hide their genuine feelings behind a veil so they're never addressed for what they really are and 2) anyone put off by the passive-aggressiveness, which is basically what being passive-aggressive is supposed to do, gets told not to start things as if they're suddenly the instigator for trying to foster a better atmosphere where people can actually communicate instead of always talking over or past each other

this is largely off-topic but dangit that's kinda the point, this stuff never gets said because it's always off-topic but worthless comments that get under people's skin without saying anything meaningful but staying related to the subject are always on-topic, so what happens?

[Paragraph]

leet is like one of the few people i've seen outside of social media who's willing to directly address that online culture super enables passive-aggressiveness as the default for expressing irritation anywhere and how nobody's feelings ever get resolved because A) passive-aggressive-acting people, for whatever reasons they have, continue to hide their genuine feelings behind a veil so they're never addressed for what they really are and 2) anyone put off by the passive-aggressiveness, which is basically what being passive-aggressive is supposed to do, gets told not to start things as if they're suddenly the instigator for trying to foster a better atmosphere where people can actually communicate instead of always talking over or past each other

this is largely off-topic but dangit that's kinda the point, this stuff never gets said because it's always off-topic but worthless comments that get under people's skin without saying anything meaningful but staying related to the subject are always on-topic, so what happens?

Very nice list that starts with A) and ends with 2), you must have spent a lot of time working on this post

(I absolutely agree with you, even though I sometimes like firing out a pithy one-liner myself; current online culture really fosters that behaviour)

[BobisOnlyBob]

I don't know who at Nintendo R&D1 was obsessed with golf when developing this game, but they needed to put down their clubs and focus on the most interesting part of golf instead, the course design, rather than the actual hitting of a ball.

[Implo]

So today video is about going from fun chest to very annoying chest.

Cave of Flames chest

For me it was really fun section of jumping on robots. Room with jumping on the crushers was really neat. I like this chest.

The Steep Canyon chest

This one is more annoying. It has few gimmicks combined with each other and also random golf minigame. But it's not that bad.

Above the Clouds chest

I hate this chest. After two previous chests where I played golf at the beginning, I have decided to be smart and ignored this minigame this time. You can imagine how irritated I was when I figured out that this game i absolutely necessary this time. Golf minigame strikes back! So I went all way to the bottom, played golf and then climb back up. I was really expected raocow to feel the same pain like I had. Sigh... The person who spoilered this fact to raocow should be banned.

And later isn't any better. Random zombies in the cloud kingdom, forced zombiefication, long walking in the zombie form, you stop whenever a bird will bump into you and there is swarm of these birds. Basically I used fast forward to beat it. Really annoying chest in the really annoying level.

Also during this chest you can get all Music Coins of this level. And I did that. This level is too annoying to wait for fifth run.
Another funny thing is that later levels Music Coins are the easiest to find for some reason.

[Crow]

wow, that sucked

[Awoo]

I don't know who at Nintendo R&D1 was obsessed with golf when developing this game, but they needed to put down their clubs and focus on the most interesting part of golf instead, the course design, rather than the actual hitting of a ball.

Comes off as quite the radical change from Wario Land II since that had the number and memory mini-games, which I personally enjoyed much more.

Never understood why they didn't have more variety in III other than the golf variations.

[Piesonscreations]

I can just imagine the devs snickering whilst designing the zombie walk.

[CrappyBlueLuigi]

A) passive-aggressive-acting people, for whatever reasons they have, continue to hide their genuine feelings behind a veil so they're never addressed for what they really are and 2) anyone put off by the passive-aggressiveness, which is basically what being passive-aggressive is supposed to do, gets told not to start things as if they're suddenly the instigator for trying to foster a better atmosphere where people can actually communicate instead of always talking over or past each other

Very nice list that starts with A) and ends with 2), you must have spent a lot of time working on this post

there is a chance that i do this a lot, very intentionally, to humor myself

(i did spend a lot of time on that post though, because i constantly second-guess myself when writing forum posts, mainly out of fear that one very small mistake or word choice will get all the attention over everything else i said. but i did unwittingly set myself up for this one)

[Le Neveu de Rameau]

I think it's safe to say at this point that the golf minigame has managed to score a hole in one in raocow's heart.

[J. J. W. Mezun]

I would like to provide you all with a video representation o' raocow in the minigolf game. ( Warning: swearing )

raocow & everyone on this forum seem stressed 'bout bidya games. You all need to drink a big cup o' cocoa coffee, eat a peanut butter muffin, listen to Pink Floyd, & relax with some haiku:

-------------------


091. S5 Cave of Flames - Blue

Molten caves ~
past the cracked iron wall
the machines.


092. S3 The Steep Canyon - Blue

Dusty day ~
in scorching heat,
stop, drop, & roll...


093. S6 Above the Clouds - Green

Heaven ~
the dead walk in peace ~
& melting flesh.

-------------------

As for the level analyses...

I said before that the developers o'erused puzzles involving jumping off enemies so you can reach higher places, to drop enemies so you can go back down to the bottom, pick up an enemy, & carry it to the top so you can jump off an enemy to the very top, but then I noticed a derth o' them for a while & wondered if I'd misremembered & simply exaggerated them in my mind 'cause I didn't find them particularly appealing after the 1st time. Today I realize it's that this level uses them to the extent that would be worth a few levels.

Also, love that troll doorway past the tantalizing throw-block wall. If your memory is bad, like raocow & probably me the 1st few times I played this, & forget that you get the blue key getting up there, then you'll be tempted to go in there & waste your time for a musigon.

I thought the smasher section was clever, however. No offense to petulantcow, but you can't be surprised that jumping under a smasher will still get you smashed — that happens in real life, too. ( In fact, jumping under a smasher smashes you mo' quickly, which is a great speedrun tactic ).

As for "The Steep Canyon"'s blue treasure, I consider that the absolute worst treasure in the entire game, not 'cause it's particularly hard, but 'cause it's just so lame. Nothing in it is new or fits the canyon theme. The fire puzzle is a weaker version o' the 1 in "Tower of Revival", & you already had to do that puzzle 4 times. Take a drink for yet 'nother thrown-in golf game. & you have to ground pound a random piece o' ground to find it. Then, the absolute frosting on the cake, they put the key right before the chest. I don't think a single other treasure puts the key literally right before the chest. The closest I can think o' is "Sea Turtle Rock"'s red treasure, & e'en that has you play a golf game & climb back up & dodge things to reach the chest.

Though I don't like the golf game very much, either, I will sort o' defend it as not as bad as you guys are making it out ( which is something I ne'er thought in my life I would e'er do ). I can certainly say that raocow's claim that it's luck is objective wrong, since speedrunners can do it perfectly consistently, so it's clearly timing & skill, e'en if it's not a particularly compelling or useful skill. I would e'en argue that the golf game would be fun if they included it once & integrated it with the game better; but they include it 12 times, 12% o' all the treasures. & seeing some random gray block that took an intern a second to draw slowly rise when you beat a round o' golf gets much less funny the 12th time.

Also, come on guys, it's not as bad as those lame minigames in Wario Land II. A'least the golf game is an actual game that took effort to make & isn't in every level in the game; Wario Land II's are a freshman's 1st programming project. The # guess game you can guarantee a win by just paying money, which you'll have mo' than 'nough to do, & the memory game is, "If you don't have perfect eyesight or don't pay 'nough, you lose". While the minigolf game annoyed me, those games drove me mad.

I think raocow just needs to relax, take a deep breath o' the cyan skies, & accept that on some rounds o' this game we call life, you can't always get the Para-Goom into the hole on par, & that's OK, 'cause that just means you get to feel e'en mo' o' the soft artificial grass, sand, water, & raging fire pits under your toes.

& remember to send the ball home...

Though I think zombies in cloud caves is an awesome theme, ¿what are you guys talking 'bout?, I agree that there's not much gameplay in having a zombie sluggishly trudge past birds that can't do anything to you. It's like using Rambi in the Donkey Kong Country games, but not fast... & therefore not fun.

& now I must go, for my cocoa coffee & peanut butter muffin are gone, & so now sadness & stress must reign 'gain...

[Awoo]

In defense of Wario Land II's mini-games, there was at least some more variance, and the end of stage game changed once you got at least one of the endings.
Sure, they're basic, but so is the golf to a degree.
I personally enjoyed the music in the Wario Land II mini-games a lot, too.
(Totally not biased on my end)

[Xenesis]

I don't know who at Nintendo R&D1 was obsessed with golf when developing this game, but they needed to put down their clubs and focus on the most interesting part of golf instead, the course design, rather than the actual hitting of a ball.

As someone who actually likes Golf games, I'm constantly reminded at how bad the WL3 golf courses are to play.

[Sebby19]

I was really expected raocow to feel the same pain like I had. Sigh... The person who spoilered this fact to raocow should be banned.

So you want to see rao suffer. Got it.

As for whoever did 'spoil' that he had to play the Golf Minigame for the Green Chest (I'm assuming it was a YouTube comment): I wouldn't have done it myself, but I thank them all the same.
Remember, Spoilers are called such because if you watch, read, play anything, and come across future knowledge before it's time, that can 'spoil' the experience for you.

I see no reality where not knowing to save the Golf game until the Green chest would ruin rao's experience. May have even saved it today.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
As for the Golf game today: It takes a lot of practise, more time than what the game requires you to play, in order to get good at the mini-game.

Rao also had some tricky courses that I don't like either. The one where he actually quit partway through requires you to land near the edge of the water, in order to be able to just clear the whole pond.
And there was another today that required landing on a small 1-tile island. You need to get forward spin in order to bounce over the 1-tile gap right next to it. And I never seem to be able to get the blue section when I want to.