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Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
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J. J. W. Mezun
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby J. J. W. Mezun » 1 year ago

029. S4 The Steep Canyon - Gray

Twilit ridge ~
watches me roll by
calm gray toad.


030. N5 The Tidal Coast - Red

Sunny day
wasted in dank caves,
bubbling.


031. S2 The Big Bridge - Green

Dreary noon ~
hefting barrels 'cross
fishy bridge.

-------------------

As a kid I ne'er thought o' this game as a Metroidvania — though that's mainly 'cause it's split into separate levels with a map screen & level progress ( other than getting treasures & all music coins ) not saved 'tween levels, whereas I consider smooth movement through a whole world to be a defining element o' Metroidvanias. As a few people have hinted, it's mo' like a 2-D Super Mario 64, & that's how I would usually describe it.

That said, I very much disagree with Implo's implication that this isn't an exploration game, & find it odd that he would use a comparison to Super Mario World & Super Mario 64 as examples, as those are clearly exploration-based games. These are certainly not fast-paced action games like, say, the original Super Mario Bros. or classic Sonic games.

Also, as Dragon Fogei said, the Metroid games themselves were oft linear. The vast majority o' Super Metroid is a linear path with a few areas you have to come back to later when you have mo' abilities & a few areas you can optionally come back to for extra power-ups — not unlike Wario Land 3. Honestly, Super Mario 64 is mo' nonlinear, as you have mo' control o'er what you can do & can choose not to do: the only things you have to do in that game are get a'least 1 star in the 1st level & beat the 3 Bowsers. Everything else is optional. Metroid Fusion is e'en mo' linear.

Most so-called Metroidvanias are mo' linear than people remember, 'cause making a truly nonlinear game is hard to do well. For 1, nonlinear games cause lots o' problems with difficulty balancing. I ran into this problem with an SMW hack I made years ago: it gave you control o'er which path you wanted to go in, but had its difficulty balanced with the expectation that you would take the yellow switch path, then the blue, & then the green. A criticism I read on SMW Central was difficulty rising too quickly, 'cause that person went straight to the green-switch path.

Thus, Wario Land 3 is smart & does what games like Super Metroid do: it tricks you into thinking it's nonlinear while being linear 'nough to avoid the problems that nonlinearity sometimes causes. If 'twere truly nonlinear, you'd see raocow stumbling into suddenly hard levels & complaining 'bout the unexpected difficulty spike.
Sebby19 wrote: The REAL question: Is Kirby & the Amazing Mirror a metroidvania? Hmmm....
I've always thought Kirby & the Amazing Mirror is the best example o' a Metroidvania, 'cause other than a short mandatory linear part @ the beginning, it truly lets you go all o'er from the beginning — you can go straight to world 9 from the beginning. Note the way K&TAM deals with the difficulty curve problem: it takes advantage o' the fact that Kirby games are all-o'er easy, making the difficulty curve not a noticeable problem. If Super Metroid tried to be this nonlinear, you'd get complaints: imagine going straight from Brinstar to Maridia.

Speaking o' which: after the decade or so it takes for raocow's game schedule to lighten, I recommend he play Kirby & the Amazing Mirror, considering he seems to like Metroidvanias & Kirby games.
Implo wrote: And speaking about that, most of the changes for the levels works in following way: "Hey, do you remember this one passage that was locked all the time? Well, guess what, now it's open.
To be fair, Super Metroid is the same: let's face it, the gun & bomb upgrades were mostly glorified keys. 1 thing I always preferred 'bout Wario Land 3 was that its keys a'least were painted better: while Super Metroid had bland weapon upgrades that just let you open a different colored door, Wario Land 3 has a giant stone foot that can break mountains o' rubble in your way, a flute that calls a snake to come out to act as a rising platform, a wand & spellbook to freeze a lake to create an ice level, & much mo' interesting examples I won't mention since we haven't seen them yet. I'd ne'er thought 'bout it before you brought it up, but the comparison to Monkey Island, which also uses items as glorified keys, is apt.

Also, raocow's playing leads people to forget

you can go back to the Temple to see where you should go next

. I expected raocow to play this way, & not his current way o' cleaning up all the bonus treasures before continuing; but in hindsight, that's how he played SMW rom hacks, so it makes mo' sense for him now that I think 'bout it.

An interesting programming note 'bout how linear Wario Land 3 truly is that only speedrunners would care 'bout: the game is so rigid in its order o' power-up collection that what power-ups you have is based on just a simple byte that determines the latest power-up you got, & assumes you have any power-up before that. That saves memory, but means that if you happen to sequence-break, you can collect many power-ups by just collecting 1.
Last edited by J. J. W. Mezun on 30 Oct 2018, 05:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Sebby19 » 1 year ago

Dangit, I wanted page topper. I would have been able to put the whole thing here, so people didn't always have to go to Page 1 to look at the whole thing. Oh well, maybe next time. Should have got out of bed sooner
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So raocow, if you don't want to grab the required treasure and overwright the previous cutscene, I can recommend two different things:
1) Get advice from The Hidden Figure. He'll tell you the next treasure in the sequence needed to advance. And then promptly ignore him.
2) Usually, grab the treasures in the opposite order that the levels sparkle.

I would also like to thank Enjl for showing me how to make this work (9 months ago!). Added his credit to the 1st post. So you can all blame thank him for making this possible.
Enjl wrote:ping
Last edited by Sebby19 on 06 Oct 2018, 23:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Sebby19 » 1 year ago

Story Time! With Wario Land 3
The Chain of deals...
High on the new cliffside like Wario's next critical powerup, the Red Gloves!. Now he can finally pickup and throw enemies and objects. Before, they would slip right out of his regular gloves. This now allows him to destroy blocks that can only be broken by a good baseball arm. The immediate areas where Wario can use his throw now is The Tidal Coast, The Frigid Sea, and The Big Bridge.
Sunken at the bottom of the coastline lay the Giant's Foot, an enormously heavy object. Still itching to throw things, Wario tosses it to see how far he can hoof it. The foot lands on the ground with an enormous THUD, sending shockwaves across the entire Music Box Land, severely affecting some fragile areas. Consequences include:
1)Having part of the The Volcano's Base collapse, possibly opening the way inside the mountain... 2)Part of the cliffside in The Steep Canyon to open up. 3)Finally, causing most of The Stagnant Swamp to drain.
Today's useless treasure is a Pokémon Pikachu!. I remember seeing one of these in the 3rd Grade.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Implo » 1 year ago

So, today raocow got gloves. Now Wario can throw small enemies. Why he couldn't do that before? Well, probably he hates touching their jiggly bodies. I understand him.

The second "item" is legendary beast Big Foot. It lived peacefully in some random underwater cave and was hiding from pesky tourists. Until Wario found him and enslaved him. Wario forced the scared creature to labor work. After doing some demolition program in some levels, Wario put a crying beast back into his pocket. Now who's the beast here?

The third item is a ... Gameboy? Really? I always thought it's a golden fingernail.

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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby YelseyKing » 1 year ago

Another day, two more reported posts by Sebby for spoilers...

Seriously. Stop. You do not need to act as raocow's personal assistant. You are bothering people in this thread. Now you're putting "helpful hints" directly in *images*, so they can't even be easily ispoilered.

And don't try to spin this as everyone else's fault. You have a history of this. And you don't get to dictate the rules because you "don't like how spoiler tags look". If I get one more report, I'm temp banning you. Mind you, I don't *want* to go that far, but you're just *not listening to anyone*. This is ridiculous.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby repairmanman » 1 year ago

Wario is such a butterfingers.

the stone foot looks like a hot hot leg(a leg so hot you can fry an egg)

edit: in regards to the closing comments, it's still a metroidvania, just a really linear one.
Last edited by repairmanman on 06 Oct 2018, 20:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Grounder » 1 year ago

seriously questioning how sensitive people are when a flowchart is enough to get them crying to a mod about spoilers
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Griflion » 1 year ago

seriously questioning how a certain person still keeps spoilering stuff and doesn't understand that people don't like it. Especially since it's quite easy to tag them as spoilers. There's no reason to tell raocow that

he can get the 8 music coins now

just let him figure it out himself. In this case and in general.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Cyril » 1 year ago

on my monitor the flowchart is now completely unreadable, anyways

and anyways someone already did the same flowchart thing already so it feels like a waste of effort to recreate it but you do you i guess
i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby cheez8 » 1 year ago

Grounder wrote: seriously questioning how sensitive people are when a flowchart is enough to get them crying to a mod about spoilers
while this is understandable, sebby's clear lack of consideration for others is what leads him to keep posting things people complain about and the fact that some of his offenses are indeed quite minor does not make them any less numerous. his lack of consideration for others remains, and is worth addressing- much more so than the impact of the resulting unwarranted advice

lately he's at least been doing better about it, from the looks of things, which is a good sign
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Ditocoaf » 1 year ago

Grounder wrote: seriously questioning how sensitive people are when a flowchart is enough to get them crying to a mod about spoilers
I'm not the one who reported anything, but I'm guessing Yesley is referring to the

"Hey raocow now you can complete a set of music coins" stapled to the flow chart. Piling on more unwanted advice instead of letting the game unfold naturally continues to be obnoxious.


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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Nimono » 1 year ago

Grounder wrote: seriously questioning how sensitive people are when a flowchart is enough to get them crying to a mod about spoilers
From what I can tell, it's mostly just the Principal of The Thing- err, I mean, the principle of the thing.

Also if you click the full flowchart Parama linked, you can find out that FOUR items are unlocked when you get the Flute, even though only three levels get marked, because one of those levels has two treasures open at once- how would raocow know there was even a fourth treasure at ALL, excepting that Sebby's first-page flowchart outright mentions there's one? The point of a game like this is to explore, find the paths yourself, not be told where said paths are. ("Paths" in this specific instance being which treasures and situations are possible.)



This is why people are upset with Sebby- he keeps doing these because to him, he knows everything so what's the big deal? Other people don't want this help since they're, y'know, LET'S plays, but he doesn't want to acknowledge this is a bad way to act. raocow's repeatedly stated in the past that he doesn't really want help with games unless he asks for it- why do we not listen to him?

Now, to keep this from becoming "let's gang up on sebby":

I'm still amused how one of the treasures is a stone foot, and its method of unlocking something is...Wario just drops it and lets it create a massive earthquake. It's just so stupid XD Especially with how it just completely drains the Swamp on the overworld, pffft. That sure is one powerful earthquake! :P

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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Cyril » 1 year ago

the whole flowchart issue would be summarily fixed if the ? boxes were all just removed, lol
i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Leet » 1 year ago

If you reframe any time anybody criticizes something as them being "sensitive" and "crying" then yeah you could conceivably not understand how people were that sensitive, given that it's a conceit that you just made up right then. so that checks out

I didn't think that

the music coins

would matter though, because I kind of assumed

raocow wasn't going to get them anyway. i know i wouldn't

Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Dragon Fogel » 1 year ago

He might if he gets one set and sees that something actually happens. After all, in his previous LP he went dragon coin hunting entirely for the sake of filling circles.

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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby ano0maly » 1 year ago

This thread in a nutshell

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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby SAJewers » 1 year ago

you forgot "no backseating"
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Sebby19 » 1 year ago

Excuse me for the early morning flub. That side fact wasn't even supposed to go there until later. Not that it was even pointing out which level. I refer you to the fact about the Golf price increase. That didn't get posted until after it was shown in the LP (even if rao didn't notice until the episode after)

I don't know, I'm looking at the HollowKnight thread, seeing unspoilered suggestions (big examples being 'don't do the Coliseum yet, do Deepnest 1st' and 'may as well go to Stagnest'). I'm not seeing a difference? Other than I've been pointed out several times, and people have really long memories.

I really take exception to Cheez8's comment though. I remember when I was running to be MaGLX3 showrunner, are there was confusion on my end regarding MaFaB. I wanted both contests thematically linked, and misinterpreted Horikawa's note meaning 'raocow has an idea for MaFab, if no one else does'. Once the intent was made clear, I immediately relented.
An inconsiderate person would have went 'NO, they must be linked!

Really, I think the only one who can settle this debate is raocow himself, by him either saying 'This is fine' or 'this is a bit much'. But I know he'd rather not play referee, and I don't want to drag him down here for just this.

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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby bbbrrr_it_cold » 1 year ago

Sebby19 wrote: I don't know, I'm looking at the HollowKnight thread, seeing unspoilered suggestions (big examples being 'don't do the Coliseum yet, do Deepnest 1st' and 'may as well go to Stagnest'). I'm not seeing a difference? Other than I've been pointed out several times, and people have really long memories.
To be fair, I've been purposely avoiding complaining about that in the thread since, apparently, saying I was upset about it once got me compared to someone complaining about it incessantly. But it has bothered me there too. And there were complaints about the Colosseum suggestion as well, which was only suggested so that raocow wouldn't have to redo the first trail. I can't (and won't) defend the Stag Nest suggestion, and I think that people (including you) could be much better in that thread about spoilering suggestions as well.
But regardless of any feelings I have on the matter, the conclusion that seemed to be suggested (of just putting it all in spoiler tags) is just getting ignored by people who don't think it applies to them or what they're saying for whatever reason. I've mostly just decided that most people in the talkhaus are going to do whatever the heck they please and there's no sense in me spending even more time fretting over posts that are just going to be misrepresented and cause me more stress.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Sebby19 » 1 year ago

As for that one ? block up alone up there, there is unfortunately no way around it. Unless I shift the entire chart over to the left, doubling-quadrupling the amount of blocks I need to create, upload to imgur, and then subsequently replace when rao get's that treasure, whenever that is. That's all the pieces on the right, the left, and the lines inbetween. So for my sanity and time, I had to include it there. I'm just surprised no one mentioned it until the accidental panel this morning.
Let me remind what I had to do regarding the Truck Wheels path. I was willing to do that relatively small section.

As for that other chart, I am aware of it (after I already started mine), and did use it for reference. I was actually going to link to it at the end of this LP. When I did look at it, especially near the end, I wondered to myself 'hmm I wonder if I can organize that better?' Did I? I'd like to think so, but you guys will have to judge that when it comes.
I have more to say regarding the organization of the chart, but I was hoping to it say it when there is a good time. I could have done it during the mentioned 4-split, but then thought, nah, too much today.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby FPzero » 1 year ago

The only thing I'll say about the flowchart is that I don't think it's necessary for you to post the full thing outside of the first post. I know you mentioned wanting to do it at the top of this page, but it's a big enough image that I don't think you need to post the whole thing more than once. It's a lot of images to load all at once.

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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Cyril » 1 year ago

Parama wrote: the whole flowchart issue would be summarily fixed if the ? boxes were all just removed, lol
hey sebby i found your solution
i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby cheez8 » 1 year ago

Sebby19 wrote: I really take exception to Cheez8's comment though. I remember when I was running to be MaGLX3 showrunner, are there was confusion on my end regarding MaFaB. I wanted both contests thematically linked, and misinterpreted Horikawa's note meaning 'raocow has an idea for MaFab, if no one else does'. Once the intent was made clear, I immediately relented.
An inconsiderate person would have went 'NO, they must be linked!
My apologies! It's true, I don't really know you well enough to really say how considerate of a person you are. I do still believe that the principle of the matter is worth just as much attention as the spoilers themselves are (if not more so), and that it's not worth arguing over any given spoiler's severity as Grounder seemed intent on doing, but none of that can justify me making remarks about your character. I'm sorry about that.

It's also good to hear that the one recent issue was an honest mistake! Like, really, genuinely.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Sebby19 » 1 year ago

bbbrrr_it_cold wrote: and I think that people (including you) could be much better in that thread about spoilering suggestions as well.
Wait, what? I haven't played the game, why would I need to spoiler? If I suggest something, it's because I'm requesting raocow to try something because I don't know whats going to happen.

But I've shared a similar, if opposite, opinion with you. Sometimes I think some people are overusing ispoiler. I click on them and pondered, why did you hide this? But I've never mentioned until now because that would be trying to change the mind of a whole community, if I tried. So I left people to do what they do.
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Re: Wario Land 3 - With input from Samus

Postby Sebby19 » 1 year ago

Thanks cheeze8, I appreciate that. It is true that I clearly didn't think long enough about putting that there. Breakfast first kids!

Though now the paranoid part of me is wondering if it's the same person reporting me. I guess I'll never know.


Speaking of spoiler tags, where the regular one? I mean, you can still type it out and it works. But it's not a button above where I type. Anymore.

What happened to it? It disappeared ages ago.
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