Betterified II: hey mom, look at all this lua I added to the levels

[SAJewers]

It blows my mind that people are having so much trouble admitting that this game is good and entertaining. Like, yes, it's okay to admit you like something that wouldn't necessarily win a level design contest. Just because this game isn't perfect game design doesn't mean it's not excellent at what it does while still being by-and-large perfectly fair difficulty.

This. We get it, y'all are cultured, gourmet level designers. You don't have to keep reminding folks about that while you watch over their shoulder as they try to enjoy their fast food.

I don't think that's the issue. At least for me, the issue is that I don't find anything here interesting or funny, so the whole thing falls flat after about five seconds.

I can appreciate games that are intentionally shittily made when they're funny about it or they're keeping the design interesting, and things like YUMP or Super Benbo Quest are for me good examples of that; I just can't appreciate this one because I just don't find it that funny or interesting at all.

EDIT: and I say this as someone who's a fan of LoadingReadyRun's Watch+Play series of streams. Sometimes they'll pay a had game that's super hilarious and entertaining to watch, sometimes they'll not and I'll lose interest quickly. It happens.

[Ditocoaf]

I'm enjoying this, but I can totally believe that someone just plain isn't. There's no need to accuse him of faking his distaste for snobbery or anything like that. Different strokes for different folks.

[Rixithechao]

Looking back, it seems I misread kilgamayan's post. I didn't mean to comment on the quality of the game and I don't believe anyone is faking distaste. I'm merely bothered by the seeming insecurities about enjoying a thing that one considers beneath their standards -- to me that seems a bit snobby to make a fuss about. They're called guilty pleasures, everyone has them.

I don't have a problem with folks preferring the approach to postmodern humor and stylistic suck you see in games like YUMP or disliking Betterified for that or other reasons. But having subjective preferences is one thing and pushing those preferences as golden standards of game design is another, and you can only express the former so many times before it feels like the latter.

YUMP did a lot of neat and interesting stuff but isn't the be-all, end-all of "purposefully bad" design and the ongoing comparisons to it are detracting from the enjoyment for those of us who just want some simple dumb fun. Like, if a work isn't your cup of tea or it isn't what you consider good enough for yourself, that's fine. Whatever. No need to make an extended thing out of it, just let others enjoy it for what it is rather than devaluing it by going on and on about what it isn't.

[Leet]

Ignoring quality, I found it rather bizarre the whole time that "the most recent example of Jokes" was the only thing people could think of to describe this with. People have been doing "intentional low-quality" works for centuries.

[Valentine]

raocow you missed the main exit in the maze was no more
well whatever LEVELS

MMMM GOOD SJIT - Me
But the maze was no more - Waddle
Don't bubble - Me
Permafrost - Waddle

Quick warning, for the first secret exit of world 6 I REALLY recommend bringing in the tanooki and shoes from The Fish God Temple

[SAJewers]

Looking back, it seems I misread kilgamayan's post. I didn't mean to comment on the quality of the game and I don't believe anyone is faking distaste. I'm merely bothered by the seeming insecurities about enjoying a thing that one considers beneath their standards -- to me that seems a bit snobby to make a fuss about. They're called guilty pleasures, everyone has them.

I don't have a problem with folks preferring the approach to postmodern humor and stylistic suck you see in games like YUMP or disliking Betterified for that or other reasons. But having subjective preferences is one thing and pushing those preferences as golden standards of game design is another, and you can only express the former so many times before it feels like the latter.

YUMP did a lot of neat and interesting stuff but isn't the be-all, end-all of "purposefully bad" design and the ongoing comparisons to it are detracting from the enjoyment for those of us who just want some simple dumb fun. Like, if a work isn't your cup of tea or it isn't what you consider good enough for yourself, that's fine. Whatever. No need to make an extended thing out of it, just let others enjoy it for what it is rather than devaluing it by going on and on about what it isn't.

Just because a game is shitty on purpose/intentionally bad, doesn't mean it can't be criticized/critiqued.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you in which case ignore this post.

[BobisOnlyBob]

YUMP did a lot of neat and interesting stuff but isn't the be-all, end-all of "purposefully bad" design and the ongoing comparisons to it are detracting from the enjoyment for those of us who just want some simple dumb fun.

mfw raocow explicitly mentioned yump in today's video description

[raocow]

raocow you missed the main exit in the maze was no more
well whatever LEVELS

are you serious about this or is it a joke? because the level dot is yellow.

[Valentine]

the maze was no more has a unique level icon for some reason. It's a sinkhole and yes there are 2 exits in there in the basegame too

[raocow]

welp, fair enough I guess

[Alice]

the maze was no more has a unique level icon for some reason. It's a sinkhole and yes there are 2 exits in there in the basegame too

There's also a clear level spot behind one of the nearby pyramids too suggesting there's more. Though that's admittedly easy to miss, especially if you're splitting your attention between multiple things like raocow.

[Classtoise]

It blows my mind that people are having so much trouble admitting that this game is good and entertaining. Like, yes, it's okay to admit you like something that wouldn't necessarily win a level design contest. Just because this game isn't perfect game design doesn't mean it's not excellent at what it does while still being by-and-large perfectly fair difficulty.

This. We get it, y'all are cultured, gourmet level designers. You don't have to keep reminding folks about that while you watch over their shoulder as they try to enjoy their fast food.

I assure you we don't think we're cultured, it's just bad.

A better example would be we are enjoying a burger at Five Guys. You bust in with some hipster-ass "Deconstructed Burger" that is just ground beef with milk and bread and tomato paste slapped onto it, insisting it's just as good when no, you're just eating garbage and refusing to admit it's garbage. We're not eating a high class fancy meal, but you are literally just eating garbage.

[Classtoise]

To be totally clear, the game isn't unplayable or unwatchable or the worst ever.

But there is a difference between "weird gimmick/gag level" that is kind of fun and interesting to watch and "Hey what if we took a normal hard level, and then the graphics just totally shit themselves every few seconds? Wouldn't that be hilarious?"

Like when it's just fun silly levels like todays bubble level, that's fine. But then there's levels like the first few in this game where the gimmick is just "what if a blind person tried to use the creation tools for the first time and no one playtested"

[Rixithechao]

Just because a game is shitty on purpose/intentionally bad, doesn't mean it can't be criticized/critiqued.

That's true, but the criticism itself and the standards on which it's based aren't protected from scrutiny either, and when the same points get made repeatedly by the same handful of people it's no longer about providing constructive feedback; at that point the critics are just beating a dead horse. There's plenty of live Yoshis to go around.

EDIT: I should probably also mention I've had limited internet access since yesterday so I haven't been able to watch this morning's video yet and my posts are happening whenever the mobile data on my phone decides to work. There's more I have to say on the matter but I'll leave it for when I can catch up and post from my laptop.

[Blynken]

Like when it's just fun silly levels like todays bubble level, that's fine. But then there's levels like the first few in this game where the gimmick is just "what if a blind person tried to use the creation tools for the first time and no one playtested"

Maybe it's just because raocow made it harder for himself by popping the bubbles in weird places, but the bubble level actually looked like the most engaging level gameplay-wise we've seen for a while. And yet, it still didn't look all that playtested. The "permafrost" level was more of the fun and silly type.

I guess this is what happens when your methodology seems to operate on the "monkeys with typewriters" principle. Every so often you come up with something super neat but most of the time it's gibberish. Knowing how little thought and effort was probably put into some levels is part of the reason I find it funny, and also why the game seems "beyond criticism."

Also, how long would it take a room full of monkeys with Lunar Magic to produce YUMP?

[Rixithechao]

Okay, disregard that edit, I'm not leaving a response like that unchallenged.

Yeah, no, sorry Classtoise, read the follow-up I made to the post you quoted. I'm not calling this game some masterful deconstruction, I'm saying that's what it's seems folks are making YUMP out to be. Betterified isn't a high-class, four-course meal and it's not literal garbage, it's freaking Taco Bell. To a food critic there's no difference between the last two, but do you honestly think the people working and eating there are in denial about the relative quality compared to other amerimex joints? Do you think they think they're Olive Garden? No. It's cheap food and good enough for everyone involved. The critics' standards don't matter to the customers and employees.

You're welcome to pop in, try it, and then say "this is gross, I'm not eating here again.". But if you keep coming back while people are trying to enjoy their freaking naco gordita dorito burritos or whatever in peace and saying "WOW this is awful, the place across the street has WAY better food" then maybe the people there aren't the problem. Maybe, just maybe, you are.

[SAJewers]

Okay, disregard that edit, I'm not leaving a response like that unchallenged.

Yeah, no, sorry Classtoise, read the follow-up I made to the post you quoted. I'm not calling this game some masterful deconstruction, I'm saying that's what it's seems folks are making YUMP out to be. Betterified isn't a high-class, four-course meal and it's not literal garbage, it's freaking Taco Bell. To a food critic there's no difference between the last two, but do you honestly think the people working and eating there are in denial about the relative quality compared to other amerimex joints? Do you think they think they're Olive Garden? No. It's cheap food and good enough for everyone involved. The critics' standards don't matter to the customers and employees.

You're welcome to pop in, try it, and then say "this is gross, I'm not eating here again.". But if you keep coming back while people are trying to enjoy their freaking naco gordita dorito burritos or whatever in peace and saying "WOW this is awful, the place across the street has WAY better food" then maybe the people there aren't the problem. Maybe, just maybe, you are.

It goes the other way as well too. One can't claim it's great, then proceed to call out people who happen to find it gross.

Again, maybe I'm misinterpreting what people are saying.

[Voltgloss]

this is not YUMP
this is Normal Super Mario Bros.: SMBX version: full game version
look at it that way and whether you enjoy it or don't enjoy it, I expect you'll be more at peace with the experience (or with ignoring the experience)

change of topic: good sjit. is that literally all that is?

[Valentine]

yes, that's it.

I don't remember if I planned something more for it additionally, but I do remember that I thought a level that just killed you was funny enough to stay in so that's all it is.

[This Eye o' Mine]

I imagined Mario just slipping off the cliff to his doom, due to the level dot.

[Blue]

I imagined Mario just slipping off the cliff to his doom, due to the level dot.

Same here. Felt like the lack of anything in that stage instead of actually having an unreachable cliff that you spawn off of was missed potential.

[Leet]

There's no point at all in arguing with Classtoise when his post is literally just "it's bad because it's garbage", it's glorified troll talk, don't bother

[Rixithechao]

It goes the other way as well too. One can't claim it's great, then proceed to call out people who happen to find it gross.

Again, maybe I'm misinterpreting what people are saying.

You are misinterpreting, but at the same time I haven't been articulating myself well. I've been enjoying the LP and I appreciate the game for what it is but I never called it great. If you're referring to me quoting kilgamayan's post, I mentioned that I misread it and don't fully agree with all of kilga's praise, more the general sentiment of that post. My use of "fast food" at the time was in the same sense as the later Taco Bell comparison and it's more reflective of my thoughts on the polish and craftsmanship of the game than the quote.

[SAJewers]

oh, yeah I'm terrible at articulating myself as well, don't worry. I also wasn't referring to you specifically.

I mean, I can appreciate the effort and what went into this, even though I don't think it's the right way to do it, and i'm still somewhat enjoying the lp after first couple episodes (certain levels withstanding); it's not this or this at all. I think after having watched so much of LoadingReadyRun's Watch+Play streams, i've ended up with a slightly higher bar for this kind of stuff unfortunately.

[Sebby19]

I remember in the original game the Pipe Maze also leading to Pyramid level, that had a long lava tunnel. That one was my favorite, can't wait to see how it changed (water replacing lava?).