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cldc 2018 - layers

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LunarRainbowShyGuy
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Re: (cld—c18) - '—'

Post by LunarRainbowShyGuy »

I feel like the gimmicks used in each of the levels (yes I'm calling each of the sections levels) had potential, but poor execution leaves it at just that - having potential. I really have issues with the gravity flipping level in particular, with all the things that don't work how it seems like they should (holding up to jump out of the bottom of the water, climb down vines, and throw a block downwards). It almost seems like the creator saw that all these things don't really work properly with the gimmick and decided to make a level out of them when you should really do the opposite; if two things don't work properly together don't put them together. Also, I don't really see the point of giving the player fireballs for Bowser if it's just going to be one of those 'wait until the game gives you a chance to attack' bosses.
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Re: (cld—c18) - '—'

Post by FrozenQuills »

I actually had more issues relating to conveyance and difficult mechanics than the level's massive length, particularly in the gravity and snake sections. It's one of those weird situations where you really appreciate all the creativity and aesthetics but you don't feel as impressed as you should be, even if there are some clever and well executed parts here and there.

Nonetheless, this level did well enough in those categories to get third.
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Re: (cld—c18) - '—'

Post by FPzero »

The green section was definitely the hardest one for me. But you definitely made it harder on yourself by never attempting to get the powerup right at the beginning and having a hit to take through its first part. You sounded pretty annoyed throughout the level and I wonder if it's because of the bad first impressions with the green section since it's slowly, more methodical and feels more punishing if you die than anywhere else. It was definitely my least favorite of the areas, but everything else really grabbed me as fun and creative, especially the ending segment where all three get combined.
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Re: (cld—c18) - '—'

Post by BobisOnlyBob »

The final stretch - the combination of the three routes - is definitely the peak of the level, and I can see why the other three areas as necessary to teach the required mechanics to make the fourth area fun and playable. But the half-present, half-absent checkpoint/restart mechanic, semi-punishing deaths, and art and music that are both Fun and Original but still kinda feel awkwardly low quality next to the vanilla assets... it's easy to see that this level is great enough to be in the top three, but not great enough to take it home. It's swiss cheese - it's still delicious, but it's definitely full of holes.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by Ditocoaf »

Gonna make a contest entry that's like "go through the garden, over the castle, across the bridge, then under the boiling sun to reach bowser!" and then halfway through the garden it's like "but wait, you need to collect the three bobs to escape the garden!, check these pocket dimensions!" and then at the end of the first pocket dimension it's like "oh no, the exit portal here is broken in half, go up to get the first half and down to get the second half!" and then either direction you go you run into bowser anyway and the level ends because I'm not actually going to hoodwink you into playing an entire hack.

edit: This has been my entry into the Describe a Good Level Idea contest 2018.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by 10204307 »

I have to agree with what people already said. The presentation of this level is incredibly good, and there are some really neat ideas in there, but the experience is kind of dampened by this funky sort of jank where the gameplay doesn't really feel fully cohesive.

I know this might be controversial, but I've come to realize that I'm not really a huge fan of levels that set up situations where you can get stuck and have to reset, at least in non-puzzle levels. It never feels good when this happens, at least not to me. And I feel like a lot of the time, this reliance on reset doors or reset buttons can become something of a crutch, where the designer doesn't think as much about how intuitive an obstacle is, which in turn can lead to some pretty janky-feeling level design. You could see that in raocow's playthrough of the first half of the level, where there were a lot of situations where he had no idea what he was supposed to do and ended up having to reset because of it.

All that being said, I did really like the Bowser fight at the end. Giving Mario his own health bar was a good way of facilitating a fight where Mario needs to have a fireflower in order to win.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by Mea »

Yeah what amazing presentation! A lot of effort was put into this entry, it's very impressive. Which is why the small quality of life decisions or lack thereof stand out. Instantly resetting the player to the reset position upon death would have alleviated a lot of the issues I think. Puzzle levels that essentially punish experimentation isn't a very good thing. Weird how the Bowser fight is unrelated to anything else in the level, yet I feel taking it out make it feel less complete? It's a nice way of using a boss fight to cap off the long trek into one complete package. I wonder if anyone else feels the same way? Though my feeling might have been different depending on where dying at the boss fight respawns you. Personally I'd make Mario invincible, retry immediately, or make it a scoring-like mechanic where you lose points from getting hit so that the high from completing the actual climax of the level--that section preceding the bossfight--isn't lost.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by Zach808 »

raocow, don't tell me you've never heard of putting your pizza in a box and eating the leftovers the next day. :D

Same with this level. There's enough content here for 2 videos.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by Kilgamayan »

Maybe I'm just an old fogey but I feel like death being a setback is the point of having a death mechanic in the first place? Like it'd be one thing if dying at any point sent you all the way back to the superdeeduper beginning of the level, but I thought the respawn points were fair given the level's length.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by idol »

Galactic Adventure
Placement: 3
Codename: space
Author: Sariel & Wakana
Judge Comments:

FPzero:

Fun Factor: 25/30
Presentation: 17/20
Creativity: 10/10

Total: 52/60

Comments:
This level is extremely cool...but it's really more like 4 or 5 levels all in one, isn't it? I'll come back to that in a bit because there's plenty to praise here.
The level has one of the most unique aesthetics I've probably seen in an SMW level in that it's trying to look and sound like an NES game while still taking advantage of everything an SNES game can offer. The result is somewhat of an uncanny valley of an NES game, but I really like it!
The three main level gimmicks of flipping Mario's gravity, high gravity and variable speed block snakes are explored pretty well and are pretty fun to mess with. At first though I felt like having them all disconnected from each other was just an excuse to make a lot of levels and ideas, but then the final section combined all three together really nicely and I think a lot of that sentiment I had went away. I was pleasantly surprised how well they all fit together at the end.
But let's talk about the gorilla in the room: the length. I don't think the level would be as good if it were shorter, but there's no denying that it is very long. At least generous midpointing and the occasional retry system helped mitigate this since you were never having to redo lots of content. But I felt like the block snake and gravity-flipping rooms were a little longer than the other segments, and the puzzling nature of the gravity-flipping one made it much slower too. I think the level could honestly stand to cut the intro area entirely since it didn't add too much overall. Just begin Mario at the path split instead. Again, I don't think you could cut much else from the middle three segments or the end without compromising the level's intent or having to redo huge portions of it. I suppose I'll just have to live with the fact that this level is a serious time commitment.
Difficulty was high in places and did occasionally feel like trial and error, especially in the block snake segment where I was trying to predict when the snake would speed up or slow down. I died a lot in the gravity flipping segment though much of it was my own fault. Bowser's fight was a little slow because of the falling Layer 2 nature of it and he was surprisingly hard to hit with fireballs even with the ability to shoot up and lots at a time.
Very fun level, impressive ideas, cool aesthetic, just very long too. Oh, and that blast off cutscene was really cool too!

Noivern:

That was a fantastic level! Er, three levels? Four? This level's major issue is that it does on for much longer than a single level should. Each section is well-made, but they're also each a decent-length level in itself. If there were fewer sections or each section was shorter (preferably this since the section where the gimmicks come together was the best part), this would have easily been my favorite level. Another issue is that the level just ends with very little fanfare after defeating the boss; after the fight I expected at least a cutscene or a message or something.

Total: 52

Blind Devil:

Fun: The level is pretty long (like 3 or 4 levels long) and fairly hard, but well-designed and also providing multiple checkpoints, making the gameplay experience less tiresome and frightening. It's a more athletic level with various gimmicks separated by areas you can clear at any order, that later are reunited into a single pre-boss sublevel. Speaking of the boss, it was a custom Bowser, pulled off in a pretty innovative way. The possibility of throwing more fireballs than usual made it less limiting, and gave me the feeling of power. Every time I spammed the button to shoot fireballs, I've got wholly satisfied. Getting Yoshi Coins was very challenging, as well, but pretty rewarding despite the fact that the player had infinite lives. Their placing was spot-on. Overall, I just couldn't enjoy this more because there were some little obstacles which I didn't manage to react properly especially in the section before Bowser, and said section was harder than the boss battle itself. But other than that, I've had a great time.
Fun points: 28/30

Presentation: Really, really nice retro-styled, 8-bit-ish feel of this entry! All graphics, sound effects and music were solid, with absolutely no problems at all. Plus, there was a very nice implementation of ASM for the most part: there was the reverse gravity gimmick, the heavy gravity gimmick, and the snake blocks gimmick (all introduced even before entering the rooms!). Moreover, there were custom collectibles in each gimmicky room to make the rocket work in order to get to Bowser. And the rocket really worked, with countdown and all! Then, the three previous main gimmicks of previous sections were all merged into the final section before the boss battle in a very creative way. And then, the gran finale: a Bowser Battle centered around a layer 2 autoscrolling gimmick, and a Bowser that spawned big fireballs aimed at the player, and Bowser should be defeated by throwing fireballs at him with an infinite fire flower. Everything... yes, everything was planned and executed perfectly here, but... oh, there's a but. A certain functionality issue related to the reverse gravity gimmick affected gameplay in two parts - in the room focused around it, and in the final room -, though only in the final room it ended up in unfair deaths. Basically what happened is that while gravity was reversed, I've got stuck inside the snake blocks when falling onto them, and then they crushed me and I died. This only happens when the player is big, though, but it happens pretty often depending on where you land. I dunno if this could have been mitigated, but maybe reducing the max "reverse falling" speed of the player would have helped in this specific case. Anyway, I have to take a point here because it directly affects the player's experience. Too bad! Almost a perfect score here!
Presentation points: 19/20

Creativity: The separate mechanisms (reverse gravity, heavy gravity and snake blocks) were already seen in several other levels as standalone gimmicks on their on for the most part, but in this level, many setups took advantage of their real potential. For reverse gravity, there were sections were you needed to break a turn block with a spin jump from underneath with it applied, to be able to advance later with it disabled because normally you couldn't spin jump said block because there was a water bubble on the way. Vines were also used to make normally unreachable places easier to get, and there was also a clever usage of throw blocks placed either on ground or ceiling, which can only be picked up depending on the gravity direction. These throw blocks were used to trigger vines and On/Off switches. Not only that: there were sections which you needed to dodge from gravity reversers in order to proceed. For heavy/high gravity, it involved more sprite setups where you should wait for a turn block bridge to expand, or a certain sprite you can stomp to reach higher ground, plus the obstacles themselves that make use of electricity balls and so on. For snake blocks, various patterns explored spinjumping Hotheads and Sparkies when the snake went out of reach, and there was also usage of the swinging platform - all while dodging Bowser statue fireballs, firebars, reflecting Podoboos and avoiding the pits, obviously. And then, the authors managed to merge everything into a single and autoscrolling sublevel without overstaying their welcome, using old but also new obstacles and sprite setups. With all that said, it's impossible for me not to give a well-deserved 10 out of 10 for this category. And that finishes my long review for a long level. Wow!
Creativity points: 10/10
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Total Score: 57/60
some stuff:

how people feel about this level is usually how i feel about levels like miraclewater's entry - really interesting stuff, but just too much of it. it's interesting to see how this is where other people cross the line on that, i suppose i get burnt out on a level a lot quicker.

also, this level made me realize i have a weird history with wakana when it comes to cldc. i won cldc in 2016, with an entry that involved space, upside-down gravity, and snake blocks. also? wakana judged that contest

this year?

wakana and i both did nes-styled levels! although we weren't able to get the 8bit sfx set up, and we had to use msu-1 for the music because neither me nor katrina were porters

(future video spoilers)
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by Arctangent »

Kilgamayan wrote: 5 years ago Maybe I'm just an old fogey but I feel like death being a setback is the point of having a death mechanic in the first place? Like it'd be one thing if dying at any point sent you all the way back to the superdeeduper beginning of the level, but I thought the respawn points were fair given the level's length.
Well then, why not just have the unwinnable states be full of spikes? Half-baking something often feels a lot worse than baking it all the way or just serving it raw, and having a generous checkpoint system in place clearly implemented and ready to use just feels like a slap in the face when it gets yanked away from you in the time you'd need it most.

There's also something to be said about incentivizing your player to try and intentionally fail if failing unintentionally while trying to succeed ends up punishing you more.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by Kilgamayan »

...I don't know if it's because of your hyperbole or my lack of Super Mario World expertise, but I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by Tyty »

idol wrote: 5 years ago how people feel about this level is usually how i feel about levels like miraclewater's entry - really interesting stuff, but just too much of it. it's interesting to see how this is where other people cross the line on that, i suppose i get burnt out on a level a lot quicker.
I agree with you here. This feels like the same problem a lot of VLDC levels have where they think longer=better and that by putting a ton into the level and... I guess trapping the judge there will leave a better impression? Or at least a stronger one.

This CLDC has made me honestly want to take my own crack at an "8-bit" style level. They seem super fun and it'd be an excuse to use rad Kirby and Gimmick! graphics.

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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by gbreeze »

the issue of long levels in contests is probably because there is no guideline for difficulty/length as in the context of a hack. When making a level for a hack, you know when "enough is enough" because it just won't fit in the hack (unless the entire hack has mega long levels lol). The other "issue" is that, when you have a ton of ideas, you are more likely to pack them all into a contest entry than a random level in your own hack. You can always create the gimmick in a different level of your hack, but since the contest entry happens only once, you want to take the opportunity to include your ideas. It's also hard for you to voluntarily cut ideas from a level I think cause you'll 1. feel like the effort was put to waste, or 2. worried that the idea you cut may have spurred the judge's interest. Also, as the level creator, you are less likely to feel like your level is too long as a judge who has already played 10 long entries.

The idea that designers feel like they are "trapping" the judges to get more credit is just silly lol. You'll probably find that most designers of long levels don't actually think their levels are "too long". They most likely won't realize that people will react to the length (example: I had NO idea eminus and I's vldcx entry was very long until people said it was lol, it just simply did not occur to me)
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by Zach808 »

Yeah, other than the general guideline of "Don't be Haimari", length seems like a real gray area. Especially since you don't know how much people are gonna be playing in one sitting when they get to your level. I might not even notice the length while playing simply because I might just end up playing half a level and taking a break. On the other hand, some might've already played about 8 or 9 levels before this and ended up getting fatigued. In the case of contests, I guess short levels are best since judges will be blowing through several in a row.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by Alice »

Kilgamayan wrote: 5 years agoMaybe I'm just an old fogey but I feel like death being a setback is the point of having a death mechanic in the first place? Like it'd be one thing if dying at any point sent you all the way back to the superdeeduper beginning of the level, but I thought the respawn points were fair given the level's length.
The issue here is the inconsistency the level presents. You have two separate fail states. One of which sets you back a lot while usually being easier to trigger then the other sets you back only a little bit but only in certain rooms under certain circumstances and it's typically harder to fulfill those circumstances than the more severe fail state. It ends up feeling kinda cheap. They even could have kept that by changing how thins work. Having the easy to trigger fail state being the one that only sets you back a little while the harder to trigger one set you back a lot wouldn't feel so cheap and inconsistent. It'd be a penalty actually lining up with how badly you screwed up.

Though in my opinion having deaths differ from the manual resets to begin with is a bad design choice. Especially since the manual resets aren't even usable in the last two rooms at all. Should've just gone with no manual resets or deaths count as manual resets.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by strongbadman »

I think at the very least the level could've benefitted from a fast retry system after death, where dying would also put you back to where retrying would. Then maybe make tbe second snake room a checkpoint for good measure. Level's still long, but you don't have to go through the death animation and run back to where you were every time.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by Kilgamayan »

See, from a gameplay perspective, I didn't see it as an inconsistency so much as a bonus that makes the level less unforgiving. The level would have been perfectly possible without it, but it would have been much more annoying to get yourself stuck with the only recourse being to kill yourself (such as any puzzle with a finite number of grabbable blocks). We also don't necessarily know how the reset system worked from a coding perspective*. Since the reset system required Mario to be alive to activate it, it's entirely possible that it would have been functionally impossible to make death trigger respawns and reset system respawns work exactly the same way. Perhaps someone with more Super Mario World programming knowledge could address this.

*The reset system probably did not exist in any of the snake platform rooms due to programming limitations; Based on how Mario respawns using the reset system, I'm guessing it functions akin to a reset door/pipe, which means the snake would have been reset to the very beginning of the room, making it suddenly 100% impossible to complete the room (with, again, the only recourse being to kill yourself). This would also support my theory that it was not possible to make death trigger respawns and reset system respawns work exactly the same way, since enemy damage and bottomless pits are not reset doors/pipes. But, again, I'm not an SMW expert, so I may be completely off-base here.

The long and short of it is that I imagine the level creators looked at the options of (a) having no reset system and making all failures, no matter how minute, overly punishing, (b) having nothing but the reset system, which amounts to a situation where the game is basically forcing save states on the player, thereby trivializing most of the difficulty, or (c) something between the two, which makes for a tough but fair level on the whole. I don't blame the level creators at all for choosing the third option.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by Classtoise »

I feel like arguments like "I just never noticed the length" break down when it's 4 entirely separate, distinct, and unrelated gimmicks.

Yeah a giant puzzle level you get lost in the puzzle and don't realize how long it takes. Not, like, this. This was clearly designed as multiple levels.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by FrozenQuills »

fun fact: the first draft of today's level was extremely janky, complicated, and involved cannons following you spitting out saws.

Yeah I think the cat shell streams worked out better.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by idol »

VERY VANILLA CALAMITOUS CAT CANNON CANYON CAKEWALK
Placement: 2
Codename: harvey
Author: FrozenQuills
Judge Comments:

FPzero:

Fun Factor: 26/30
Presentation: 17/20
Creativity: 8/10

Total: 51/60

Comments:
Surprisingly, the level had basically everything the name said it would. Seriously though, those cat cannons were really fun to mess around with, especially the rapid-firing ones! It was neat to queue up a train of shells and use them in combination with the triangles to bounce across areas. The climbing koopas were even used in some pretty clear timing challenges too.
The level didn't overstay its welcome either and continued introducing new ways to mess with the shell cannons. I thought it looked great, sounded good and was overall very fun to play.

Noivern:

Loved every second of it. The entire level looks and plays great, and the different variations of the shell shooter kept the level fresh throughout. That's such a cute reskin of the original koopa shell. The original graphics clash slightly with the new, the continuous shell shooters frustrated me a little bit, and the music died on me when the p-switch ran out (no crash though), but otherwise I can't find much fault with this level.

Total: 55

Blind Devil:

Fun: Oh my god I've had so much fun playing this one little level! It has various challenging but engaging sections revolving around Koopa shell shooters, Net Koopas, and various other sprites that, while not consistent theme-wise (more covered on presentation topic), made up for a lot of variety while not being boring at all. You gave the player time, space, plenty of powerups and lives - maybe a bit too much, but it isn't something to worry too much because there are several life farming spots anyway lol. And the fact that Yoshi Coins are saved in midway points just added more to it - the player doesn't have to replay the whole level again if they die after the midway point to recollect the previous coins. But... but... honestly, I wouldn't mind replaying this level again and again, given how fun it was to play. Congratulations!
Fun points: 30/30

Presentation: A happy-themed level, with a wise choice of chocolate graphics that go very well together with the regular player graphics and some other vanilla-styled sprites. No glithes and no cutoff, and nice decoration. The Koopa shell reskin was pretty cute, too. One little thing that I'm afraid I have to deduct a point here is that you could have also reskinned the Thwomps, Sparkies and Hotheads to look happier and less menacing-looking (less castle-ish). Apart from that, the choice for an unsampled remix of SMW's music was pretty nice and surely would always fit better than any vanilla song here. It also didn't break anything. I also give my hats off for using SA-1 wisely, not only to avoid slowdown, but for taking advantage in sprite design as well. The Koopa shell theme was also introduced and applied flawlessly, and the difficulty curve was spot-on, with no sudden peaks or unfairness.
Presentation points: 19/20

Creativity: What was done with Koopa shells and shell shooters was wonderful. There were tons and tons of varied setups: mixed with triangles, used to reach other places in lots of different ways, using turn blocks and throw blocks, in a "dodging-Net-Koopas-game", falling grey platforms... so much done, revolving around a single sprite behavior. And not only limited to that, there were various other interesting obstacles making use of only vanilla sprites: Net Koopas that you must wait strategically in order to advance, also used in conjunction with Sparkies, Thwomps and grey platforms. All in all, this is another proof that it's possible to do a lot with very few resources. I can't give a score here that's any lower than 10.
Creativity points: 10/10
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Total Score: 59/60
this was fqs first level concept:

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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by raocow »

that's a lot less cute
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by 10204307 »

Just put a cat face in the middle of the saw. Problem solved.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by LunarRainbowShyGuy »

I wonder about that... well, there's only one way to know for sure. *spends 5 minutes drawing a cat face on a saw*
SMW Cat-Saw Large.png
SMW Cat-Saw Large.png (1.8 KiB) Viewed 3653 times
I guess it does look kind of cute, though some one who's actually experienced with sprite art could probably do better.

Anyway, this level looked pretty fun. In fact, I almost want to play it for myself, which is pretty rare for SMW hacks. Also, it's always nice seeing raocow react to cute cats.
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Re: chocolate hack design contest - ten shots per screen

Post by Ometeotl »

idol wrote: 5 years ago Image
I like this idea better
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