Super Mario Doomsday - Turning Off The Matrix

[Money]

Seeing how much trouble raocow had getting the thing to run, and seeing how generally janky it seemed from gameplay footage, I feared there'd end up being backlash. I didn't expect the LP to be dropped, though.
I just feel... bad for BuzzNBen. It's obvious a lot of work went into this, he just really didn't have the programming skill required for a project of this magnitude. Hopefully he takes this whole thing as a learning experience, instead of getting discouraged: For being the product of someone who, for all I can tell, has no formal programming training, the fact that this game exists and is at least somewhat playable is pretty dang impressive. Just... work on the polish in the future.
It'd be interesting to see a postmortem from Ben about developing this game, but I understand if he just wants to wash his hands of the whole thing. I imagine I'd be kinda sore if something I worked so hard on and waited so long to be played was near universally panned.

[Voltgloss]

I'd love to see Ben pick up SMBX 2.0. I think he'd create something awesome using it.

[Leet]

truly, this was, a videogame

[idol]

next up raocows playing metal gear solid 4

dont @ me

[Grounder]

next up raocows playing metal gear solid 4

dont @ me

you cant tell me what to do

[Filbi]

I'm sorry if this business left Ben feeling dejected, but the LP was just not good entertainment :/

Well... at least it ended better than Notte Luminosa.

[Classtoise]

I'd love to see Ben pick up SMBX 2.0. I think he'd create something awesome using it.

Honestly, anything with an established framework would, at the very worst, kind of jank design-wise EDIT: And there's already more than a few of those! I imagine SMBX or regular ol' LunarMagic would be good.

[Lockirby2]

I have to say, Super Maks made a pretty darn awesome level. I'm glad that raocow had a good experience with it.

[Voltgloss]

I have to say, Super Maks made a pretty darn awesome level. I'm glad that raocow had a good experience with it.

Agreed 100%.

[SAJewers]

If it weren't for all the technical issues, I don't think this would've been viewed as bad.

[Alice]

If it weren't for all the technical issues, I don't think this would've been viewed as bad.

If it weren't for the really buggy hitboxes that pop up and the random game completely breaking things like that switch then I think people would've largely excused the jankiness. Hopefully Ben takes this as a learning experience rather than getting discouraged though. As raocow said, the game did have some pretty interesting design so it'd be nice to see what he can do in the future with something less buggy.

[Grounder]

not sure this video was nessecary

[raocow]

I felt like it was. this is the first series in ten years I end by author request, and although the reasons where made explicit here and on discord, the vast majority of viewers don't participate in either and they have the right to know

[FusionWarrior]

Whelp. Hopefully we can return to this with a DX version. I was enjoying all this, but it's not about me, and that I understand.

As promised, I posted the BG image on the first post of this topic for those that want it.

[Kilgamayan]

Man, the transition from pre-cancellation viewer attitudes to post-cancellation viewer attitudes has given me whiplash.

[Paragraph]

Man, the transition from pre-cancellation viewer attitudes to post-cancellation viewer attitudes has given me whiplash.

I think it was quite important for raocow to make the video for this exact reason. People are very quick to hate, especially online and in today's climate, and I really appreciate the cow for his unrelenting devotion to positivity, fairness and trying to be as nice about things as possible. The fact that he can turn opinions like this just by calmly speaking his mind and explaining things is a rare ability, and it should be used.

[Arctangent]

Honestly, while I can understand, logic-wise, why people would be sympathetic towards this whole ordeal, I just really can't. Sure, there's a lot of heart put into this, but that's the same with every project that aimed to reach the Sun but the creator just flat-out lacked the experience to pull off something so big. It's not just something that shows up in video game-based stuff ( although lord knows I've seen so many overly ambitious Doom projects from people who've only just started to touch one of its editors ), but art, writing, music, and all forms of art too. Popping into the scene out of nowhere with your magnum opus is an exhilarating prospect, sure, but it's also just as feasible as flying towards the Sun on wings made of wax.

I dunno, maybe I'm just become entirely cynical towards this, but the writing's been on the walls since the beginning and it's really not surprising that it came to this. All I can say is that I hope Ben doesn't throw in the towel because of this and uses this whole thing as a learning experience, since it's something I feel most of us have to learn the hard way.

[Kilgamayan]

Man, the transition from pre-cancellation viewer attitudes to post-cancellation viewer attitudes has given me whiplash.

I think it was quite important for raocow to make the video for this exact reason. People are very quick to hate, especially online and in today's climate, and I really appreciate the cow for his unrelenting devotion to positivity, fairness and trying to be as nice about things as possible. The fact that he can turn opinions like this just by calmly speaking his mind and explaining things is a rare ability, and it should be used.

I mean, it's been visibly happening since here and yesterday's video, but today's video is certainly going to exacerbate it.

In retrospect I regret not elaborating on this at all, because I saw where the wave of negativity was going and could have made more of an attempt to stem it (for however much good it would have done) but did nothing.

[Implo]

That's really sad to hear. I really enjoyed this lp more than your other lp. Lataly I noticed that you were tired when starting this game. I thought that long session with Rabi Ribi and Megaman X5 greatly affected your mood, but I never would imagine that author would request to stop lp. That really pains me because I started play along you, raocow. I guess I am a bit more tolerant to a little broken but still fun games. I also don't like to watch lp being stopped in the middle. Also you played glitchy games with weird design decisions in the past and you finished them. And sure most of these games were hacks. But at this point of age, saying that hack can look glitchy or have bad design because it was made to be a bad game (like YUMP) is a bit silly.

On the other hand, I understand this decision. Replay clocks are more annoyance than help, saves are uncompatible between versions, a lot cutscenes would benefit form adding the option to skip them. Also for current version you have, game is a bit unstable and you have a loss of momentum midair (something that never happened to me). Also there are several bugs and glitches and bad design decisions that were shown in the Evant Games lp. This lp has been commented by author half year ago. And even in 2.0 they appeared in completely unchanged form. For example there is stupidly hard jump for secret exit in next level or World 6 Castle has a certain design decision that I can't call differently than a Huge Dick Move. It also has 2 ways of saving, none of them was best. Combination of these two would be better - quicksave that not vanish after loading.

I beat half of World 7 and I really had a lot of fun. Maybe I'm overthinking, but it also feels that author improve this game only for raocow.
I would prefer raocow continuing this playthrough. Maybe not in the form of lp, but rather in the beta testing form.

Well anyway I'm planning to finish this game. So good luck with SMU, raocow. Let it be better experience than this game.

[Rixithechao]

This video was absolutely necessary. We were just discussing in discordhaus how, between these LP threads and other platforms like youtube and discord, this fandom has a problem with discouraging feedback and criticism when raocow plays games or levels like these.

It's not that most people are particularly vicious or unconstructive -- folks are generally pretty good at outlining what the flaws of a work are. But there's enough aggregate negativity that each individual comment takes on a harsher tone and the rare post that does get too aggressive, too personal, unhelpful, etc. doesn't stand out as much. And when the few people who seem bothered by the seemingly-caustic environment say something about it, they get blown off.

Devs know how much work goes into game production and level design and understand that sometimes there's factors beyond a creator's control or expertise and despite their best efforts the issues can't be fixed. That people can be aware of their past mistakes and that said past mistakes don't reflect their current knowledge and abilities. But not everyone in the talkhaus or spotzone or youtube comments is a developer. Not everyone has that perspective, and even some people who do have it aren't always mindful of it when giving feedback, nor that their critiques don't exist in a vacuum.

I'm not saying that Ben has zero responsibility for how the game turned out, but it's important to be conscious of how complex and difficult game development is. Sometimes things just go wrong, and it's not necessarily the fault of the creator or anyone's fault really, but it can still be demoralizing when someone who doesn't understand that attributes that issue to the creator or otherwise gives a sense of "it would've been good if you didn't screw up with X, Y, and Z".

I didn't keep up with this LP all the way through, but from what I've heard things have overall been better than they were with levels like grand chemo and min/max. There were a few times I recall taking a peek into this thread and seeing something unnecessarily harsh, but I'll take folks' words for it that things are generally improving and people are being more empathetic. I do appreciate that some people have been apologizing for harsh input and offering words of encouragement. But it'd be nice if, with future LPs of stuff with shaky craftsmanship, there could be more support throughout and not just after the damage has already been done.

Here's wishing you the best, Ben. It took a lot to stick with it this long. If, as some folks suggested, you do take up SMBX at some point in the future, I'd love to see what you make with the engine.

[Sugar]

For what it counts, the level design in this was really nice. And for what it counts, making game engines is hard, especially for a single person and considering he had to work with Game Maker Bug City or whatever that is. While I doubt BuzzNBen would make another fangame after this, I sorta hope he would do a SMW or SMBX level (or even SMBWii if you want to try out something different) where this level design could be experienced without weird bugs everywhere.

[AlchemistHohenheim]

Unfortunate that it had to come to this, really. Not hard to guess why, though.

The LP kinda morphed from showcasing a neat fan-game into showcasing the absolute worst-case scenario that someone could experience playing said fan-game. At that point it's kind of doing more harm than good in terms of exposure.

[Dragon Fogel]

Personally, I try to be aware of the distinction between negative feedback and discouraging feedback. It's one thing to say you didn't enjoy something and point out the reasons; it's another to actively demotivate the author.

Here, I feel like a significant portion of the criticism went a bit too far across the line, even in some comments that went on to recommend the author try using a different engine or whatever. I saw a few where the tone struck me as "wow this game is garbage, but I want to see what else you can do anyways". That sort of thing sends mixed messages and makes the encouragement sound less sincere.

I think it's important, when making negative points, to keep the focus on the specific problems. Sure, by all means mention how a particular flaw brings down the work as a whole if that's what you think - but the point should be more of "if this were fixed I'd like it a lot better". Gives the author a specific lesson to learn, whereas "the physics look bad" (as opposed to specific physics issues) or "it's painful to watch this LP" doesn't.

Anyways, I thought this was entertaining enough to watch on the whole. I'm glad BuzzBen made the effort to put this thing together, and that raocow gave it an earnest shot.

[Blue]

words

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I wouldn't really call this game 'bad' overall, but that's because I wouldn't call it 'done.' It feels like a rough draft that needs refinement in most ways. Ben didn't have the skills and experience to draw out the full potential his concepts, and the only way to fix a lack of skill and experience is to continually and painfully fuck up everything until you don't fuck up anymore.

[Kilgamayan]

Assuming the general community response hasn't just driven him off from trying again at all, of course.