COMING UP NEXT now w/ BUCKET.TXT

[Valentine]

honestly, most of the issue is that people in the comments tend to want to "validate" raocow's experience with a level, and also end up seeing the level through a "this level is bad" lens because of it, and like, i wouldn't know how to solve that.

but at the same time, i don't think there'll be a yump 38 so honestly it'll probably be fine, full disclosure I've played the game with rewinds, but generally there isn't a single level which feels like it's genuinely trying to be awful (well ok maybe one level, but it's definitely not as infuriating).

however, MOST of the levels are kinda ridiculous and difficult as hell, so my only advice if the lp happens is to treat one-more-leveling like a vacation into hell.

[raocow]

eugh I have a response I want to give but I can't find a way to formulate it so I guess I won't.

[WinterSweater]

so uh, reading all this after a bad night's sleep

is this all about how I *might* react to the game?
like what if I actually do have a good time. or an ok time.

The post by Rixithechao articulated the issue well earlier in the thread

[ano0maly]

I would like to reiterate that everything in this discussion stemmed from comments I made, and I should probably be shot for it. I'm sorry.

You know if you want to elaborate on things feel free to do so, I'm confused because it sounds like it actually stemmed from Validon's reactions to the hack according to Validon's posts?

[Validon98]

Err, I should clarify again I guess, I don't think it was all because of things I said, just that it might have contributed. I hadn't gotten a chance to talk with rixi to ask if it was anything I had said (and at this point I can't as I've also left the spotzone for the time being because I don't want to make things even worse there, as that is where I was posting my complaints). There are parts of it I don't know all of regarding what led to this so I just assumed I had a large factor in it, which even if I didn't I'm still sorry for any contribution to the problem I had.

[SAJewers]

I think the issue is more macro than just debating what happens if you do or do not enjoy YUMP 2. It seems to be more an issue of, whenever you are actively struggling with a game and show clear distaste/negativity for what you are doing, a portion of your viewership blames the creator(s) for you not having a good time and goes forth to harass them.

That and people continuing to hold a grudge (or whatever you want to call it) towards those creators in subsequent works (See: Rixi's example of Lazy's VLDCX entry and various immediate unneeded references/callbacks to YUMP 38/GAY SHT)

[The Doctor]

The post by Rixithechao articulated the issue well earlier in the thread

Yeah, Rixithechao's original post is good and does explain the issue well. ano0maly also explains the situation well. What confused me so much is that, well, to be blunt, Validon derailed the topic. They went off on a tangent about being upset because the hack was too hard for them. Two completely different conversations that I confused as one.

Rixi's post about raocow's toxic fandom is very interesting. I've been watching raocow for a long time now, but I don't really involve myself in the community. I watch some fun videos, make the rare comment, but mostly just go about my life. I haven't noticed any of this toxicity towards creators other than a few YUMP 38 jokes here and there. I didn't think people were actually upset with Lazy over that level. I always interpreted those comments as a good-natured excitement over having no idea what to expect from Lazy's levels. I guess I was wrong. Do people really take raocow that seriously and harass creators over levels?

[Valentine]

I've seen plenty of people get really mad over "bad levels" or "bad games", but usually it just ends up being an argument about whether it's actually bad or not, less often is it that creators get attacked.

I made betterified 2 which is a game that several people really didn't like, but nobody actually went out of their way to say that I should feel bad or whatever about it. It's a different situation because raocow wasn't mad during that let's play like at all.

YUMP 38 is really the only thing that got that sort of treatment from what I can see, and as I've already stated, I don't think there's anything akin to that in yump2

[Awoo]

That post I made last night is stupid, I apologize

[Voltgloss]

Question for the group.

[the] jump team ...

used pseudonyms but allow players to unlock the real names at the end

Should raocow not

show the YUMP 2 level creators' real names?

[SAJewers]

Yeah, Rixithechao's original post is good and does explain the issue well. ano0maly also explains the situation well. What confused me so much is that, well, to be blunt, Validon derailed the topic. They went off on a tangent about being upset because the hack was too hard for them. Two completely different conversations that I confused as one.

I can't find it now, but I could've sworn that Rixi said somewhere that Validon getting upset at the hack in the patapon spotzone was one of the things that lead to their original post

[WinterSweater]

Question for the group.

[the] jump team ...

used pseudonyms but allow players to unlock the real names at the end

Should raocow not

show the YUMP 2 level creators' real names?

I think it would be good to

credit the people who made the levels properly, but I don't mind it either way

[ano0maly]

I thought that meant

they were seen with made-up aliases until you unlock their actual usernames

Or is it actually

usernames turning into real names

?

[Sinc-X]

I thought that meant

they were seen with made-up aliases until you unlock their actual usernames

That's correct.

[Piesonscreations]

If i'm getting this right, the crux for this whole convo is the harassment of creators for levels that raocow/individual players might've had a negative reaction to. And i'm pretty sure that we can all agree that that's a shitty thing to do.
Now, I don't think raocow outwardly saying "Don't do this" would help much at all, since anyone that's been watching the guy knows that he wouldn't want people to harass the level creators- People will do as they want, and our best bet to solve that issue is moderation, but I don't know if this is something that would really merit much discussion. I'm sure most would agree to this.

To be fair, plenty of what's been talked here seems to have much of it's weight in other parts that aren't necessarilly the talkhaus (I didn't follow the VLDCX thread, mind you), because, while i've seen some people talk shit of creators for their levels on the very very rare occassion, it's usually just people making stereotypes and not like, actual ill will toward creators. Like, these might be my standards from other places of the internet, but I've never seen anyone over here tell a creator to harm themselves for making a "bad level"- even if there's been unnecessarily mean comments, which to be frank, i can't even recall any specifics but that doesn't mean they haven't happened.

I guess, one of the things that adds weight to any of these comments is that this forum is very close to those creators themselves, like, they are actual people that read the stuff that gets said on here, or the fringe talkhaus communities (discordhaus, patapon, etc.), and there's not that same level of abstraction between how a comment is received regarding these creators, and how anyone who makes these comments has a face and is usually somewhat regular in these communities.

I dunno, I guess I just don't have the full picture here.

[Kilgamayan]

Now, I don't think raocow outwardly saying "Don't do this" would help much at all

You might be surprised, honestly.

[raocow]

i have said that, multiple times :I

[Leet]

i'm not sure why we shouldn't joke about yump 38 considering that the level is obviously a joke itself. also i was right that this was people bringing in outside conversations to this thread and honestly if you dont wanna use the talkhaus just dont i guess, kinda sucks when every conversation here has become impossible to follow if you arent in 5 secret chatrooms

[SAJewers]

As I understand it, this issue isn't joking about YUMP 38, but rather people using YUMP 38 to negatively criticize/put down other works by Lazy.

[Alice]

I am godawful at arguing this stuff and I should not be the one taking a stand about it. But it feels like nobody else will, like I’m one of the few people who’s still willing to even semi-publicly voice this sentiment and hasn’t completely resigned to accepting the toxicity.

This is because a lot of people who were willing to voice dissenting opinions in the pat left the community because they were getting tired of how the community was handling things on the whole.

And raocow, you’re a great guy but you can’t stay hands-off and neutral forever and expect everything to sort itself out.

This being a major part of the problem really. raocow refuses to actually handle his community himself, leaving them to self-police instead. Which is a notable part of why so many people have been driven from the site. The people I actively interact with from the talkhaus have almost completely left. I see one or two of them around occasionally but those ones largely just seem to lurk. And I know some people who left the community and stopped even watching raocow because they were so tired of how the community acts.

There's also another factor here: raocow and talkhaus can't do anything about the YouTube commenters, and we all know that. They can be as toxic as all get out and we wouldn't be able to do squat about it. You saw it in the Half-Life 2 LP with Viktor Pedrova, and there have been others as well. There's not as much overlap between them and the rest of the Talkhaus community, so there's not like there's much that can be done.

I'm fairly certain raocow can ban idiots like Viktor Pedrova from his videos. I think(?) he can also make people moderators for his comments too. I didn't watch the HL2 lp since I don't care for the game but I've heard a fair bit about his comments from others and have some personal experience with him from Iso's La-Mulana 2. He's not a good community member in any way. With Iso's LM2 lp he kept chewing me out nonstop about posting "spoilers" and even after Iso told him my comments were perfectly fine he still refused to actually acknowledge he fucked up.Allowing people like that to stick around doesn't make for a healthy community member and they should be evicted as soon as feasible. (Then again a lot of Viktor's refusing to listen to me was that he didn't believe that the person who managed Iso's forums at the time could possibly know what Iso would consider a spoiler, lol... For anyone curious, he considered telling Iso literally anything about the game, even if it was to tell him what the jump button was, constitutes a spoiler. While Iso didn't consider that or things he could have seen on the video and overlooked or things you were only guessing about to be spoilers.)

I think the issue is more macro than just debating what happens if you do or do not enjoy YUMP 2. It seems to be more an issue of, whenever you are actively struggling with a game and show clear distaste/negativity for what you are doing, a portion of your viewership blames the creator(s) for you not having a good time and goes forth to harass them. An argument can be, and has been, made that you, as the content creator, have a moral obligation to actively, vocally discourage such behavior, and to actively, vocally condemn it when it happens, as remaining silent is tantamount to endorsing said behavior.

raocow has made more efforts over the years to try to head off stuff like this but he could (and should in my opinion) definitely take a more active role in doing so. I think it'd help a lot in creating a more healthy community.

[WinterSweater]

raocow has made more efforts over the years to try to head off stuff like this but he could (and should in my opinion) definitely take a more active role in doing so. I think it'd help a lot in creating a more healthy community.

Or he should have someone else do that, if he does not have time from editing and recording videos

[Leet]

I mean he does have people handling the community, called the mods on the talkhaus. Once again I don't get why people + rao even look at the YT comments.

[CrappyBlueLuigi]

I mean he does have people handling the community, called the mods on the talkhaus. Once again I don't get why people + rao even look at the YT comments.

i'm not sure what responding in this way contributes to the conversation when the entire conversation is about the yt comments. people in talkhaus threads have referenced and responded to comments on the lp videos for years and i don't think this approach is going to convince anyone to stop doing that + stop having this conversation

[idol]

this thread is really fuckin weird.

what if raocow just does what he wants and people don't get so weirdly involved with the politics of it.

also no one cares about yump38. shit happens. that's all.

[Leet]

i'm not sure what responding in this way contributes to the conversation when the entire conversation is about the yt comments

raocow refuses to actually handle his community himself, leaving them to self-police instead. Which is a notable part of why so many people have been driven from the site. The people I actively interact with from the talkhaus have almost completely left

not that it actually matters because i dont think anyone should get bogged down in these details, but christ