Mega Man - We're Here Forever!

[Classtoise]

So do MMZ fans just not grasp the concept of a blind playthrough or...

[Le Neveu de Rameau]

X8 did not exist back then. Zero's ending from X6 directly sets up MMZero as those games were developed concurrently, and it's shown there that X6-design Zero seals himself away to later be awakened by Ciel

I know about the BIG Zero 3 spoiler but that doesn't change this at all

. There is no reason to cling to the idea that a redesign took place at some point in-universe, things get redesigned and reinterpreted in a bunch of movies, TV series etc. and nobody bats an eye at that.

It's a curious thing, though, as this game was originally meant to follow from X5, wherein Zero is completely trashed and presumably would need to be rebuilt, which probably was the idea behind his change in appearance. As far as X6 goes, though, the Zero's state at the start of this game doesn't really match up with Zero's ending it that game anyway (except in general concept), so the continuity isn't very seamless there, either (and this is complicated further by the MMZ backstory). I suspect X6, like X5, also thought it was going to be the end, at least as far as Zero's story was concerned, but things just sort of kept going, introducing new kinks in to the system.

I guess the reason any of this seems so strange in the first place is that my thoughts upon first seeing Zero's new design as a child was simply, "Oh, well it's the future, of course things are going to look different". I suspect that was indeed, as you suggest, the default reaction by most players, which is precisely why one of the creators turning around and saying "No, despite all appearances of things looking different, they're in fact intended to look exactly the same, but you're seeing them completely differently" seems a bizarre and unnecessary explanation. We were already prepared to accept a new Zero for a new world, so insisting he's instead a static, unchanging point and our eyes (despite him having canonically changed appearance in-universe before, and doing so again in a later X game, and in such a way that nicely bridges the art styles) are instead lying to us seems to be deliberately creating contradictions where the mind is prepared to accept everything as it was. It seems a curious decision indeed.

[Chirei]

So do MMZ fans just not grasp the concept of a blind playthrough or...

raocow expressed confusion at being able to use his weapons, and how to save. Given that the former is going to be a problem for FOUR GAMES, I don't really think anyone is committing any LP crimes here.

[Kilgamayan]

One could argue that both this forum (including yours truly) and the YouTube comment squad do not grasp the concept of a blind playthrough in general. <_<

This is actually something I've dwelled on in the past, since it seems to happen a lot here. I think the overall justification is that "spoilers" are selected carefully for presentation in the interest of minimizing both secrets given away and frustration in future videos. Hence, there are plenty of posts describing how to change controls to be a lot less aggravating, but no posts with things like "hey raoguy you should get the hextuple jump fairy by killing enemy A in room B of stage C!" My less-than-$0.02 is that this is probably the best approach from a practical entertainment standpoint, but that it's a delicate balance to strike, one that is missed often enough that I can appreciate being gunshy about giving too much away. (This is why I try to give as little detail as possible on the occasions where I talk about future events.)

[Paragraph]

I may well be biased because I really like the Zero games, but my justification for explaining stuff has always been personal judgment of "will this be a very frustrating issue very soon if I don't pipe up now" and "could raocow have figured it out on his own anyway if he wasn't doing an LP as well as playing the game". The control scheme issue is a prime example for this, because it's clear as day in the menu which Type does what but raocow doesn't want to make bad videos by spending ages in the menus and that's the correct approach, so he misses that.

Similarly, the lives/game over system is stupid, completely different than it has ever been and will ever be, and it really warrants explanation before the retries run out forever, and missions are becoming literally incompletable. This is something a normal player will figure out on their own by realizing after the first "true" game over how dumb it is, and choosing to always just reload the game instead of Retry-ing if it's not too costly, but raocow doesn't have that luxury because he's making daily videos for an audience. So I explain it.

In a similar vein, I could not have done it but I think there was no real harm in me laying out a path for the X6 cleanup. I am taking more liberties in these later MM games as a) raocow is far more blind than for the early ones, b) they're becoming more and more obscure with their secrets and c) this is a super long-running series with soon 400 videos, I think it's in everyone's best interest if raocow gets a little more info than might strictly be necessary, but it keeps shitty game design from making things grind into a standstill.

As I said at the start, this might well be my bias talking because I like Zero 2-4 a lot and think Zero 1 is plenty fun with about 5-10 big IFs attached, so I'd rather everyone not immediately think this is garbage from the get-go.
Ultimately, therefore, if people are really annoyed (and especially raocow himself, of course) I can shut up and do more productive things with my mornings than write too many words about Mega Man...AGAIN ;).

[Chirei]

Ultimately, let us remember that there is a Let's in Let's Play.

We should try to enhance the experience wherever mechanically possible, but not to the point where it forces playing a certain way to the point of uncomfortableness for the LPer. I wholeheartedly approve of the practice of stopping gotchas like no retries and the elf system because those, at best, were probably explained in the instruction manual a rom wouldn't come with.

That and gotchas in video games are honestly just something I don't care for and are usually bad design unless to make the rare joke.

[Classtoise]

So do MMZ fans just not grasp the concept of a blind playthrough or...

raocow expressed confusion at being able to use his weapons, and how to save. Given that the former is going to be a problem for FOUR GAMES, I don't really think anyone is committing any LP crimes here.

No no I don't mean "Hey raocow, setup B is probably more fit for your playstyle". That's fine. I mean like, all the people just expositing and gushing about every flaw and nook and cranny and secret and mechanic and how the grading system works and upgrades work and how ranks work and how it can affect the game and... Like "There is a setting to switch buttons to be more reasonable" is fine, I just see so many people like, telling him everything they can about the core mechanics of the game going forward.

[Chirei]

No no I don't mean "Hey raocow, setup B is probably more fit for your playstyle". That's fine. I mean like, all the people just expositing and gushing about every flaw and nook and cranny and secret and mechanic and how the grading system works and upgrades work and how ranks work and how it can affect the game and... Like "There is a setting to switch buttons to be more reasonable" is fine, I just see so many people like, telling him everything they can about the core mechanics of the game going forward.

If someone mentioned something other than the ranking system or elves, I didn't see it.

These two things aren't really explained anywhere that well, and it was made evident that these two could mostly be ignored. The information dump is half for raocow's curiosity and half for the curiosity of the thread readers (at least on my end.)

Thankfully neither of these really spoil anything about what actually happens and since they're kind of fluff mechanics, it doesn't really prepare him for anything ahead since he's not gonna have the EC to even use the good elves, nor does getting a good rank make the game easier.

[Mea]

So do MMZ fans just not grasp the concept of a blind playthrough or...

There seems to be a lot of people that are going into this blind, so even with spoiler tags, let's not be revealing story elements here folks. Even some of the little stuff like

the situation with humans and reploids

isn't a spoiler by any means, but it's still a story element that wasn't fully revealed yet. Let's let people figure things out as they're handed out by the game instead of spoiling it for them. Having early misconceptions corrected by narrative progression is a good feeling.

[Stink Terios]

I think Zero isn't meant to be disfigured in that cutscene. Isn't he just kneeling with his arms tied behind his back? The real damage is a result of just rotting there for a hundred years. He's rusty and amnesiac, that's all.

[Paragraph]

So do MMZ fans just not grasp the concept of a blind playthrough or...

There seems to be a lot of people that are going into this blind, so even with spoiler tags, let's not be revealing story elements here folks. Even some of the little stuff like

the situation with humans and reploids

isn't a spoiler by any means, but it's still a story element that wasn't fully revealed yet. Let's let people figure things out as they're handed out by the game instead of spoiling it for them. Having early misconceptions corrected by narrative progression is a good feeling.

That's in the manual tho, but I get what you're saying.

[ano0maly]

I'm pretty sure Zero looks disfigured there.

I prefer Zero's looks here over his bulkier looks in the X games but that might be because MMZ was the first time I vividly experienced the character.

[xnamkcor]

So do MMZ fans just not grasp the concept of a blind playthrough or...

raocow expressed confusion at being able to use his weapons, and how to save. Given that the former is going to be a problem for FOUR GAMES, I don't really think anyone is committing any LP crimes here.

No no I don't mean "Hey raocow, setup B is probably more fit for your playstyle". That's fine. I mean like, all the people just expositing and gushing about every flaw and nook and cranny and secret and mechanic and how the grading system works and upgrades work and how ranks work and how it can affect the game and... Like "There is a setting to switch buttons to be more reasonable" is fine, I just see so many people like, telling him everything they can about the core mechanics of the game going forward.

You mean like how landing on the ground cancels your sword animation and that lets you do two quick swings when landing?

[Heavy Sigh]

So in this game forward, the bosses aren't just plain old Reploids anymore. They are now MUTOS REPLOIDS!

"While regular Reploids are built to appear human, Mutos Reploids resemble animals and mythological creatures, and are distinguished by their comparatively mechanical cosmetics, and the possession of skills and weapons not available to ordinary Reploids. These aesthetic and practical traits are generally determined by, and allude to, the tasks each Mutos Reploid was created to perform, or a particular elemental force drawn upon during battle, resulting in a potentially unlimited variety of Muto-Reploidic form. Mentally, Mutos Reploids are as humanlike as their anthropic counterparts; each Mutos Reploid has a unique personality and way of thinking, which can be affected by their personal experiences."

So now, on to MUTOS FACTS! BEGINNING WITH AZTEC FALCON!

THE ULTIMATE BIRD, SPARKING WITH LIGHTNING

"Aztec Falcon acts as warden and executioner to all Reploids accused of being Mavericks. Under the harsh laws governing Reploids, there are no known cases of a Reploid being judged innocent and released once they have been arrested. "

[Stink Terios]

Elemental chips only affect charged attacks, of which you currently have none.

And yes, Aztec Falcon was meant to be easy. This is a game that rewards careful, hit-and-run play, and punishes recklessness very harshly.
If the game didn't do this, every boss would be just, absolutely decimated effortlessly since Zero hits so hard.

[Grounder]

And rao, by all accounts I can find, screwed himself over one episode in by not save-scumming.

"Learning the game" isn't an excuse for making poor time/effort decisions in a game with supremely limited lives.

[Dragon Fogel]

Judging by your experience, I think what they expected for that boss was that players would go back to the intro area and beat up spiders to level up the buster and/or saber in order to get the charge attacks.

The weapon leveling system in this game is honestly kind of silly, and I say this as someone who generally doesn't mind grinding. Thankfully, as I said before, they streamline it in 2 and then eliminate it entirely.

[raocow]

And rao, by all accounts I can find, screwed himself over one episode in by not save-scumming.

"Learning the game" isn't an excuse for making poor time/effort decisions in a game with supremely limited lives.

I would counter by saying that it's ridiculous that a game would expect you to save-scum at level 1

[ano0maly]

Even though Ciel hard-saves your game, I would advise you to also use save states when your retries are too low - like you did with some SMW romhacks when you get too low on lives without a good way to get more. Of course, you would also want to save state at the end of a session after a hard save so that they're consistent.

Upon thinking about it, attack mode type A seems to be just a variant of type C. Instead of pressing the switch button to change weapons, your weapon choice depends on whether or not you're holding the button. This is similar to controls in the GBA Metroid games, where holding/releasing the R button toggles between your primary and ammo-limited secondary weapons. Type A makes more sense this way (but of course type B is still better).

And since you've been mentioning Distorted Travesty, I feel that you should approach this game the way you played DT3. I don't mean expect to freely re-attempt each room several times, because this game doesn't give you that kind of luxury. I mean get good with using both melee and ranged attacks, as well as your movement and other tools.

Perhaps try to learn how to avoid some of the attacks first before shifting your main focus to attacking effectively? Would that be a good idea (I'm asking others here for thoughts)?

[Leet]

And rao, by all accounts I can find, screwed himself over one episode in by not save-scumming.

"Learning the game" isn't an excuse for making poor time/effort decisions in a game with supremely limited lives.

I would counter by saying that it's ridiculous that a game would expect you to save-scum at level 1

It absolutely is - as in, Mega Man Zero is ridiculous

By the way, just because you can use the sword, doesn't mean you have to - just dodging the boss' attacks like a real fight instead of dpsing him isn't too hard. you don't have to use x6 tactics anymore

[Paragraph]

The door behind Ciel will be locked until you reach A-Rank, then she allows you into her bedroom. This is the one thing you miss out on if you don't go for high ranks IMMEDIATELY, but you can actually find Elves later on that will make your rank A for one mission, so that way you can still get it.

Yes, the lives system is completely unreasonable - that's why we were telling you about it ;). I think you handled it perfectly fine, though - lose all your lives to learn a boss and be forced to reload the save, then lose one more to refill health, beating the boss at the cost of one life. That's to be expected, and if you do beat a boss first try occasionally, the lives you find in the stages or even as random drops can keep you topped off so you don't run out. It's just a bad idea to save the game when you have absolutely no lives left, because then you'll never get the chance to retry a boss immediately just to learn it.

Aztec Falcon is a very, very harsh first boss and is only kept in check by not taking too long

(I think this is vague enough to not spoil the health bar thing of future bosses)

- which is good, because you also have a time limit, which will make you panic, which will get you killed. The only real way of making this easier on you is to go back to the intro stage, grind a few weapon levels and try for the dumb jump to the obvious secret area, because

there's a Nurse Elf there

, but all of those are silly things to ask from a player so early in a game, imho.
The boss itself is also quite rude because his claws block damage, he has a deliberate anti-wallcling maneouver, forces you to wait painfully long for some of his attacks to conclude...again, all with the time limit.

Overall though, raocow did exceptionally well (especially against those awful rolling spikeballs), so I think this game won't be a problem at all.

As for boss order: it's different than it used to be so I don't think you should worry about it at all until you realize how elemental chips work and how they might interact with things. So I won't talk about that. One of the choices is a far worse level than the others, but I won't even hint whiiiiich

[Kilgamayan]

Elemental chips only affect charged attacks, of which you currently have none.

Is the buster presently not chargeable? It would make sense for it to be a level-up function, but Cerveau outright said the buster could be charged (which I noticed raoguy proceeded to ignore entirely). It's been a long time since I played this game so I don't remember either way.

[Bean]

This game is geared towards the more seasoned veterans of Mega Man, but it also goes a bit crazy with it early on. Aztec Falcon is legitimately hard for a second intro stage boss. There are ways to build up your weapon skills between missions, but just about everyone on their first playthrough is going to go straight into that level with the sword and buster at its default strength.

MMZ gets a bit easier as you upgrade everything, but by then, you'll be firmly entrenched in your D-Rank at best. It's just the way it is for first-time players. Expect a lot of retries!

[SAJewers]

someone posted this in the patreon discord, but i'll link it here too

https://gonintendo.com/stories/313828-m ... -the-story

[Chirei]

Is the buster presently not chargeable? It would make sense for it to be a level-up function, but Cerveau outright said the buster could be charged (which I noticed raoguy proceeded to ignore entirely). It's been a long time since I played this game so I don't remember either way.

You have to level it up to actually charge it. One level lets Zero mid-charge, and the next lets him full charge. It's really dumb.

You can level up weapons just by hitting applicable things IIRC- you don't actually have to kill them. I could be wrong, though.

For some reason, only A Rank or higher hunters are allowed to enter Ciel's room. There's nothing in it except a few unique graphics and a box with a Cyber-elf in it (it might be one of the health-increasing ones, which is kinda dumb because that means in order to get max health you can't go below A which is already hard to do because basically taking any hit will ruin your chances?)

The entire world is actually connected in Z1 and it's kind of interesting from an aesthetic perspective? It doesn't do too too much for the gameplay, though.

The purple pokey things are actually where people usually grind their weapon levels. I think you have to get 4 or 5* to charge the Z-Saber, which is the first time in the franchise Zero is able to charge it up. Look forward to being able to use it, as it's the best move Zero needed that he didn't know he needed, unlike SMB3 Mario and Luigi.

Aztec Falcon is pretty dang hard for an intro boss, especially since you'll have no skills AND a time limit. There's no harm in actually restarting using lives, but the moment you run out and continue is where it gets really hairy. Just be mindful of your lives counter.

The 16 health thing is gonna be a really difficult situation until you get a ways into Z2, so no firemanning bosses this time unless you grind EC for Elves. They absolutely want you to get good/grind in this game.

The Escape Unit is a bit of a trap - because the world is interconnected, it doesn't work if you want to revisit areas for stuff. You can only use it during uncleared missions, and doing so will not only give you a terrible Rank and title like Failure, you'll miss out on all the story bits AND rewards like elemental chips which are vital game mechanics that you might have gotten from that mission. This is basically only useful for speedrunners.