smbx communitypge projectirc.cat.bio

happy birthday talkhaus!!!!

SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
User avatar
SAJewers
A2XT Guy
Posts: 2037
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Nova Scotia

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby SAJewers » 4 months ago

this is starting to remind me why I'm not a fan of SMBX's design standards and conventions.
DO NOT PM ME ABOUT A SECOND MARIO BROS X. THING. I WILL NOT RESPOND TO PMs.
Image
Head over to the ASMBXT Forums and join the discssion, or submit levels!
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
S.N.N.
Posts: 441
Joined: 8 years ago
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby S.N.N. » 4 months ago

The hub theme keeps throwing me off. The first bit of it (15:25 in today's video) sounds exactly like the sewers theme from Jak 3, but then it goes off on its own tangent.
Image

User avatar
Alice
💙
Posts: 1508
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronouns: Girl person
Location: Wonderland

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Alice » 4 months ago

Super Maks 64 wrote:The elevator I think would be better if it was just a solid on top platform and the On/Off blocks were invisible with an Up or Down arrow BGO behind them.
I don't disagree there but other than the issues with getting stuck on top of the elevator, raocow was causing a lot of his own issues by fixating on the displayed graphic rather than remembering the far simpler "left is down and right is up" that was actually in play.

User avatar
Ometeotl
Posts: 605
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Ometeotl » 4 months ago

Alice wrote:
Super Maks 64 wrote:The elevator I think would be better if it was just a solid on top platform and the On/Off blocks were invisible with an Up or Down arrow BGO behind them.
I don't disagree there but other than the issues with getting stuck on top of the elevator, raocow was causing a lot of his own issues by fixating on the displayed graphic rather than remembering the far simpler "left is down and right is up" that was actually in play.
No, the bad design caused those issues.
Image

User avatar
Grounder
Posts: 1714
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Grounder » 4 months ago

Ometeotl wrote:
Alice wrote:
Super Maks 64 wrote:The elevator I think would be better if it was just a solid on top platform and the On/Off blocks were invisible with an Up or Down arrow BGO behind them.
I don't disagree there but other than the issues with getting stuck on top of the elevator, raocow was causing a lot of his own issues by fixating on the displayed graphic rather than remembering the far simpler "left is down and right is up" that was actually in play.
No, the bad design caused those issues.
I'm not going to say that the design of it isn't clearly flawed, but it's not really that difficult to remember that left is down and that right is up.
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

User avatar
Zephyr_DragonLord
You must choose... NOW!
Posts: 848
Joined: 2 years ago
First name: Zach
Location: A place where lies roam free...

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Zephyr_DragonLord » 4 months ago

Oh my, the early works of MECHDRAGON esq. really were something else...
I think we're going to see more than a few one-level videos in this part of the woods. The elevator breaking and the midpoint chance are just simply bad design.... The boss fight today was interesting, though.
I am prone to almost everything... except spontaneous violence.
Any questions, concerns, or aspirations you have with me can go to the PM box... Now here's a quote:
raocow wrote:I know there is a population on Earth. They like to populate. I like to gesticulate. We're friends!
Image
(It was about time)

User avatar
MECHDRAGON777
Where radioactivity blossoms, so do I!
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: Antarctica
Contact:

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby MECHDRAGON777 » 4 months ago

Yeah, my first level ever made since joint a forum and you got this. Is it hard to believe I could not figure out it's rankings four or five years ago? This is easily my worst released level, and I actually hate it. The level only got negative reviews. The only positive things about the level were the boss fight which it would have scored below the joke tier if the boss was not there... Sorry for allusions to a canceled episode with Blaze the Cat...

Image
Image
My avartar
Image




I am a SMBX player, and I do not know weather to stay at SuperMarioBrosx.org or at talkhaus.raocow.com honestly.

User avatar
MECHDRAGON777
Where radioactivity blossoms, so do I!
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: Antarctica
Contact:

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby MECHDRAGON777 » 4 months ago

Yeah, my first level ever made since joint a forum and you got this. Is it hard to believe I could not figure out it's rankings four or five years ago? This is easily my worst released level, and I actually hate it. The level only got negative reviews. The only positive things about the level were the boss fight which it would have scored below the joke tier if the boss was not there... Sorry for allusions to a canceled episode with Blaze the Cat...

Image
Image
My avartar
Image




I am a SMBX player, and I do not know weather to stay at SuperMarioBrosx.org or at talkhaus.raocow.com honestly.

User avatar
Alice
💙
Posts: 1508
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronouns: Girl person
Location: Wonderland

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Alice » 4 months ago

Grounder wrote:I'm not going to say that the design of it isn't clearly flawed, but it's not really that difficult to remember that left is down and that right is up.
Yeah, this is exactly the point I was making to begin with. The level has plenty of flawed aspects. The on/off blocks are just the least severe of those flaws.

User avatar
Mabel
Just west of wierd
Posts: 259
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Mabel » 4 months ago

Alice wrote:
Grounder wrote:I'm not going to say that the design of it isn't clearly flawed, but it's not really that difficult to remember that left is down and that right is up.
Yeah, this is exactly the point I was making to begin with. The level has plenty of flawed aspects. The on/off blocks are just the least severe of those flaws.
A block that says "up" and a block that says "down" would fix this immediately. I dont see why one would want to memorize incorrectly spelled blocks in this way and its kinda dumb to ask the player to do this.
Image
Image
Image Image

User avatar
Alice
💙
Posts: 1508
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronouns: Girl person
Location: Wonderland

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Alice » 4 months ago

Mabel wrote:A block that says "up" and a block that says "down" would fix this immediately. I dont see why one would want to memorize incorrectly spelled blocks in this way and its kinda dumb to ask the player to do this.
I don't know how people can keep missing my point so completely. I'm not saying it's not an issue at all. I'm saying that out of all the issues the level has it's the least relevant because it's an easy one for the player to actually account for if they bother to think at all.

User avatar
Mabel
Just west of wierd
Posts: 259
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Mabel » 4 months ago

Probably because its one of those things that could not be an issue at all.
Image
Image
Image Image

User avatar
Grounder
Posts: 1714
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Grounder » 4 months ago

MECHDRAGON777 wrote:
Grounder wrote:
TaviTurnip wrote:Holy Christ. The YT comment section gave me actual cancer. What the fuck >_>

Happy to see some familiar faces in there providing chemo where necessary.
i mean

mechy-boy is pretty synonymous with "awful design" as far as raocow's lps are concerned
I hope to change that.
Well, you are really not off to the best start.

How many levels are in this?
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

User avatar
Ryrir
Posts: 384
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: Switzerland

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Ryrir » 4 months ago

this whole thing feels like someone designed a few levels to show why the "classical smbx community pandering level design style" is difficult to pull off and should be used with caution

it's like a parody of itself at this point
Grounder wrote:How many levels are in this?
Eight
this is getting laundromatic

User avatar
Super Maks 64
Opinions everywhere man
Posts: 66
Joined: 5 months ago
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: Poland

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Super Maks 64 » 4 months ago

Oh hey a level I remember playing in the Tower of Biased 7.
This level I think is the first "real" level in this compilation. I think it would be better if it didn't have the second star with glitch usage and the Nut Platforms rather should have been normal platforms with some obstacle dodging, because small moving quicksand platforms aren't the best. The level was big but I think it wasn't a big issue. I would prefer if it did something more interesting with each character.
The Lemmy rematch was pretty great.
Looking forward to the next 5 levels.
Tag <div> was not opened.

User avatar
GlitchMr
:)
Posts: 501
Joined: 8 years ago
First name: Konrad Borowski
Location: Switzerland

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby GlitchMr » 4 months ago

MAZEDRAGON777

I posted that yesterday in JUMP 1/2 chat, but this level still confirms it.

User avatar
MECHDRAGON777
Where radioactivity blossoms, so do I!
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: Antarctica
Contact:

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby MECHDRAGON777 » 4 months ago

GlitchMr wrote:MAZEDRAGON777

I posted that yesterday in JUMP 1/2 chat, but this level still confirms it.
I still can not find that comment.

Image
Image
My avartar
Image




I am a SMBX player, and I do not know weather to stay at SuperMarioBrosx.org or at talkhaus.raocow.com honestly.

User avatar
Ryrir
Posts: 384
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: Switzerland

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Ryrir » 4 months ago

awww mechdragon individually apologizing to every negative youtube comment is the saddest thing ever

you go mechdragon! These past levels might not have been all that, but I really really hope the next few levels are like super amazing now
this is getting laundromatic

User avatar
MECHDRAGON777
Where radioactivity blossoms, so do I!
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: Antarctica
Contact:

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby MECHDRAGON777 » 4 months ago

Ryrir wrote:awww mechdragon individually apologizing to every negative youtube comment is the saddest thing ever

you go mechdragon! These past levels might not have been all that, but I really really hope the next few levels are like super amazing now
Not counting the finalé that only a select few people got to see for there criticism; I would say only two levels of the past are decent or better. You can use the scores if need be. The finalé of the past is what I am most proud of currently.

Image
Image
My avartar
Image




I am a SMBX player, and I do not know weather to stay at SuperMarioBrosx.org or at talkhaus.raocow.com honestly.

User avatar
Lockirby2
Posts: 211
Joined: 2 years ago
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Lockirby2 » 4 months ago

You know, I'm starting to actually be glad that Waltz in Scarlet Devil Mansion is one of the only two MECHDRAGON levels that I've played.

Oh well, making more levels is one good way to improve at making levels. :P

User avatar
Tyty
Posts: 32
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby Tyty » 4 months ago

I mean "My levels are too big and hard" isn't exactly the worst thing, mine tend to be really short and easy, but that might be an SMBX vs SMW kinda thing (At least the level size). This kinda makes me wish I had more than just my contest entries to show my own progression, and I think it's a really neat idea, even if some people are tearing you apart over it.

I'll say I've been wanting to make a level out of the Sanctuary Fortress tileset for a long time too. I actually kinda liked the first level and I think if it was a bit shorter and maybe a bit less of an actual metroid maze it would've been better. That doesn't tend to really work well in a platformer. I did like the spider ball guardian miniboss even if nobody else does. It's a pretty accurate representation of the fight all things considered and doesn't involve flinging bombs at on/off switches.

I think more annoying than the giant elevator switch hunt in the second level to me was the crusher spike room. It's such a tonal shift from the concept used throughout the rest of the level... Again though, the concepts aren't super flawed in my opinion just it's kinda an execution problem. The level was just kinda big without many powerups.

The third one just seems kinda large and unfocused. Again I think it's not bad, just needs to be toned down in size or something. I don't actually like this one as much as the other two, I'm not really sure why. Maybe it's because the size feels less... I dunno, necessary? Normally airships are small focused levels since SMB3 set that precedent. I dunno.

Really though, I see a lot more whining than I expected on the youtube comments... and a lot more negativity here than I was actually expecting. If you made a retrospective of your own levels as well, the first ones wouldn't exactly shine. I think not enough people are really looking at this for what it's supposed to be.

User avatar
SAJewers
A2XT Guy
Posts: 2037
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Nova Scotia

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby SAJewers » 4 months ago

Tyty wrote:I mean "My levels are too big and hard" isn't exactly the worst thing, mine tend to be really short and easy, but that might be an SMBX vs SMW kinda thing (At least the level size).
Having used both, I find it's definitely a lot easier to keep track of level length in SMW.
DO NOT PM ME ABOUT A SECOND MARIO BROS X. THING. I WILL NOT RESPOND TO PMs.
Image
Head over to the ASMBXT Forums and join the discssion, or submit levels!
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
TaviTurnip
I'm just here to remind people I'm here
Abministrator
Posts: 989
Joined: 7 years ago
First name: Rena, despite assumptions
Location: Up

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby TaviTurnip » 4 months ago

I'm enjoying this series so far, so...

Really honestly speaking here, I think a lot of good will come out of all of this. Also I might burst my pipes and tell people to eff off again like I said last year, over someone I'm not even friends with, so that'll be quite swell :D

But really I'm glad this is being played and I am having a good time with it which is good. I'm glad for everyone who's currently able to enjoy it.

EDIT: I have no actual level critique because I'm sorta working on moving to an apartment right now so. Sorry for just saying broad sentimental things.
I'm just here to annoy you so that you aren't here instead.

User avatar
MECHDRAGON777
Where radioactivity blossoms, so do I!
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: Antarctica
Contact:

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby MECHDRAGON777 » 4 months ago

I have a feeling Raocow is playing two levels a day. (The way comments are being reacted to verbally) I thought today's level would be tomorrow. I should have given an angry cow warning on an upcoming level, but meh. Not sure if I did or did not. I just woke up from a nightmare, so I will go back to sleep now.

Image
Image
My avartar
Image




I am a SMBX player, and I do not know weather to stay at SuperMarioBrosx.org or at talkhaus.raocow.com honestly.

User avatar
kitikami
Posts: 284
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: SMBX: Mechdragon777 showcase; What a showoff, amirite?

Postby kitikami » 4 months ago

I find it amusing that someone would compile a set of levels specifically for raocow and still include multiple levels with self-imposed angry-cow warnings (though it's nice they didn't actually trigger angry-cow).

I'm by no means a level design expert, but if Mechdragon is interested in more feedback beyond what they've already gotten in the past for these levels, here are some general criticisms (spoilered for length):


-level length
My biggest advice would be to cut down on the level length. Long levels aren’t necessarily inherently bad, but a level overstaying its welcome can amplify a lot of other flaws. Just as importantly, length can become a crutch that lets you just throw all your ideas together into one disjointed mess without properly editing what you have for quality.

As a thought exercise, try editing down some of these past levels to something more compact. Not necessarily opening them up in the editor and actually rebuilding them, but just think hypothetically about if you had to cut these down to, say, a third of their size, what would you cut out, and what would you change?

By trimming the level down to a more reasonable length, you can force yourself to ask things like:

“Where does the main challenge come from in the level?”
“What is the core theme of this level?”
“What elements contribute directly to that theme?”
“What are the most interesting ideas being showcased?”
“What set-ups are the most repetitive, generic, or add the least to the level design?”

By only giving yourself a limited amount of level space to work with, you can’t just keep adding whatever set-ups come to mind or keep expanding on partial ideas. You really have to be selective and focus on what set-ups and obstacles are most meaningful and have a positive impact on the player’s experience. Editing is less about adding on to what you already have and more about evaluating what you have and looking for ways to make that better. This includes not feeling like you have to add multiple exits unless you see a clear purpose being added by having the player re-explore the level on top of what is already accomplished with the first exit.

Similarly, I would suggest limiting yourself to shorter levels in the future. Then, after you’ve gotten comfortable with editing your work down to only the most important or interesting elements, if you want to go back to making longer levels, just make sure you keep applying those same principles you learned about editing and being selective about your ideas to justify the length.

As for the Metroidvania level, that is another issue. Metroidvania is fine, and using SMBX to build a massive, sprawling experience is an interesting idea, but it is also a huge commitment to ask of the player. It’s best left as its own thing, or as part of a game designed entirely around that concept. As part of a compilation of Mario levels, having the player go back and forth through a level looking for things for potentially over an hour is really out of place and has a good chance of taking the player away from what they really want to be doing. I think that’s the main problem there, moreso than the level itself was bad. In the proper context, something like that could be really neat.


-frustrating gimmicks
There are some interesting ideas, but some of them are executed in frustrating ways, which can also exacerbate the level length issue. Frustrating gameplay is one of the biggest turn offs for a lot of players, so you have to be careful to balance the idea of doing whatever works to execute a gimmick you have in mind with making sure whatever solution you come up with is fun to play.

The quicksand platforms jump out as particularly egregious here. This was an interesting idea to recreate those SMB3 platforms with SMBX resources, but ultimately it is still just platforms made of quicksand, which is one of the most frustrating interactions to encounter in Mario. Quicksand is typically used as an escapable punishment, like a pit that won’t kill you but will annoy you a bit if you fall in it, or at most something you only briefly have to traverse to cross over something. Using it as a platform you have to ride to get around a level fully exposes the frustration most players have with quicksand and is just not fun to play, and makes it tedious to explore a level that should be about exploring.

Making this a core part of the gameplay of the level seems interesting on paper since it fulfils the gimmick you had in mind, but it’s a case where dropping the gimmick altogether would be preferable since frustrating gameplay will kill the atmosphere of a level much faster than not delivering fully on the gimmick.


-testing/viewing levels from the player's perspective
As a level designer, you know your level much better than any player ever will. This means you have to be particularly careful about any obstacles with obtuse solutions or which rely on knowledge that is not readily discernible from the screen, as well as any information that can be misleading to a player.

For example, it sounds like you’re aware that it was a bad idea to have a midpoint that requires you to talk to a random toad to find out that you need to find and count the total number of toads you can talk to in the level. But this flaw is made much worse by what comes immediately after. A roof of spikes drops rapidly from off-screen while the player is on a series of single-block jumps. This is almost guaranteed to kill the player the first time they get there unless they just instinctively wait several seconds upon entering that room to take in their surroundings. And if they didn’t get the midpoint, that is massively punishing for such an ambush. As the level designer, you know both that that is coming and how to get the midpoint, so you're never going to experience getting ambushed there and having to redo a long section that is tedious to redo, but a player who runs into that is not going to have a good experience.

Yesterday’s level also had some examples. The Toad in yesterday’s level who talks to you halfway up the alternating-platform climb and implies that you need to be Rosalina was a problem. Presumably, you didn’t expect the player to react the way raocow did because you knew what was coming and what you needed to do. Players won’t have that information, so you have to think carefully about what information they have at the time they get to a given point in the level. Force yourself to forget all the things you know about your own level, and look at the level from the perspective of someone experiencing it for the first time. How will someone with no knowledge of what is coming react to any new information?

The unintuitive level ending was another example, where you kind of have to blindly throw yourself off the airship to get down to the exit even though that would kill you most other places in the level. raocow getting to that part initially and doubling back because he had no idea he was on the path to continue was a pretty natural reaction and a problem the level had with conveyance.

This also includes things like re-spriting hurt blocks, especially to something that is not obviously threatening, like making vanilla water graphics hurt you.

This is something outside testing can help with. Testers can pick up on things you take for granted as someone who knows all the ins and outs of your level. There were also some broken elements (like the weird springboard in the elevator of the switch level) or places where raocow seemingly ended up in situations that weren't intended in each of these levels that would need some more testing to iron out.


-over-reliance on text
Writing in games is largely a matter of taste, but in general try to be mindful of everything you have to explain to the player. Think about whether it is really necessary or if there is a better way to convey that information. There are a couple examples that jump out where a gimmick was explained when there was no real reason to even have the gimmick in the first place. The toad that tells you you have to count the other toads to get the midpoint is a big one, as well as the explanation about how to glitch through walls in the airship level.

Neither of those gimmicks was remotely important to the gameplay of the level, and instead of dropping a text explanation on the player, both levels would have been improved by simply removing the unintuitive elements rather than explaining them. The former should have just had the midpoint available to begin with, and the latter could have just as easily removed the walls you had to glitch through without the level losing anything.

Any time you feel a need to explain something to the player, it is a sign you are designing something unintuitive. That’s not necessarily bad, and can allow you to do some really creative stuff that expands the normal Mario gameplay, but you should ask yourself why you are asking the player to do something unintuitive and whether it really adds anything to the level. Even then, try to think of ways to lead the player to discover your gimmicks on their own through gameplay rather than just telling them what it is.

You also have to make sure text is given to the player at an appropriate time so they can make sense of that information as easily as possible (looking at you again, Rosalina-Toad).


Anyway, there was obviously a learning curve associated with these early levels, but there's also a lot of effort and some interesting ideas in them. I'm looking forward to seeing where the rest of the levels go and how Mechdragon does with a bit more experience and direction.


Return to “let's play”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron