(shouting)

SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
User avatar
Sugar
Posts: 1143
Joined: 14 years ago
Pronouns: fae/faer

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by Sugar »

this was even the worst one in the world
This level is second worst level in the game IMO. But there is more waiting in this world... Oh dear.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

The Cement Block Theory, to put a name to this idea, holds that if you were to replace all of the graphics in your level with basic cement blocks so that it functions on a basic level, it should still be fun and enjoyable to play. It's a good design theory to live by so that you don't get so wrapped up in making your level look nice that you forget to make it actually fun.

As for the second level, gimmicks that take away the player's vision are rarely executed well and here is no exception. Why are there so many blind-ish jumps? Why are the line guides not visible on any of the three color cycles? You're requiring me to spin jump across moving saws with a low ceiling and (presumably, since we never saw what the P-Switch actually did) all under a time limit, but you give me no way to tell when the saws are going to turn around so I can adjust my movements appropriately? And why is that segment so far into the level, requiring me to spend upwards of one or two minutes to get back there just to fail again? There's a reason the level has a green door.

And as an addendum, I looked up where the secret exit in this level is and it's absolutely awful. You need to use the P-Switch at 14:00 to find it. But you also need to jump over the ceiling of the level at 13:34 to find the Key because it's just sitting in an alcove up there. Then you have to juggle carrying both of these backwards through the level all the way to the horizontal vine at 7:00 and press the Switch there to make some invisible ? blocks appear that take you to the keyhole, suspended over the void. It is quite literally a blind stumble for the secret exit.

I think I see why some people have said this is the worst level in the game.
User avatar
Sugar
Posts: 1143
Joined: 14 years ago
Pronouns: fae/faer

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by Sugar »

Interestingly, a while ago, somebody actually changed GAMBLY NIGHT to only use cement blocks (according to person who did this to showcase its poor level design). Sufficient to say, this was a really controversial thing, and annoyed a lot of people.

Also, the same person responsible for cement block GAMBLY NIGHT did a really improved version of FLASH BLACK which only uses two colors and is much more action oriented (with addition of auto-scroll) in JUMP 1/2. It's actually a good level, there is no video of it however, and I don't feel like making one, because it's unreleased ROM hack after all.

The reason why Ninja Boy scores are so weird (56/60 for FLASH BLACK, come on) is that he played VLDC9 entries with savestates, and entries he played earlier (and entries were played in random order) were rated much lower than entries player later.
User avatar
Sugar
Posts: 1143
Joined: 14 years ago
Pronouns: fae/faer

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by Sugar »

I don't have any proof of this other than some offhand comments made by members of raocow's forum during his playthrough of the game. But if true it would explain some of the high scores we've seen from him when all the other judges rate it much lower.
Ninja Boy claims that he didn't use savestates during judging, but videos like https://youtu.be/Z2NcwVQoIbU?t=2076 don't fill me with confidence. Sure, this video was made after judging a level, but... uh.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

Another long level that had to get split into two but at least this time it was good.

I love how consistent this level is with its triangular theme. It's abstract in a great way and the secret exit autoscroll is superbly designed in my mind. (Which is why I take extreme issue with one of the judges giving it a 1/30 in the Design category and taking the score down to the 70s.)
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

This is a much better way to make a color-shifting level. Though, outside of the color shifts the level doesn't have much going for it. It's a pretty basic castle level.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

Spooky World is starting out nicely enough. Third level had some odd design decisions though and they kind of dragged the level down for me.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

This level would've been fine, if not a little odd, had it not been for the secret exit. Maybe we should've noticed the clue to where it was the first time we beat the level but we were in the middle of a star run and there were so many other design oddities throughout the level why would the actual answer stick out more than anything else? It's not bad but when you're playing it for nearly 40 minutes (the video's been edited down somewhat, don't worry) trying everything to find the exit, it starts to grate. Unfortunate.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

Second half of the second level feels rushed. Lack of general level cohesion has been a flaw in quite a few of the levels in Spooky World so far. Too many ideas, not enough development. (Just noticed that apparently the 2nd level got 34th...huh.)

That third level though.... nice.

---------

Sorry for the long delay! End of spring semester coupled with the start of summer semester has ruined my free time enough that I haven't wanted or had time to edit. But I got one done yesterday! Unfortunately, there might be just as lengthy a delay on the next one but maybe i can get the next one out sooner than later.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

Wrapping up Spooky World with a level that fits perfectly into its theme. So good.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

We're back and going to ice world, which apparently is a world of autoscrollers.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

If you've enjoyed our talks about old SMWCentral history, this episode has a lot more of that.
User avatar
Sugar
Posts: 1143
Joined: 14 years ago
Pronouns: fae/faer

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by Sugar »

The music in Snowy Bits would be Mega Man ZX - Wonder Panorama (Area F - Lake).
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

Not seen here: I cut out nearly 15 minutes of attempting to get the Koopa to catch the Ice Block in the second level. We eventually explain why it wouldn't work, but it turns out the SA-1 patch that allows for more sprites to be on the screen at one time also interferes with Blue Koopas' ability to catch sliding items. Even with that knowledge, the level still felt like it was all over the place and we later learned that it was using all sorts of glitches and obscure knowledge to hide all its dragon coins and moon. But that alone wasn't enough to make the level enjoyable for me. Not sure how it landed 19th place in the end but I guess the other judges saw something in it that I just totally didn't.

First level was good though. I really liked its theme/execution and its use of a secret exit was perfectly acceptable.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

The first level's pretty good. There are a few iffy setups in there, but overall I really enjoyed the ice athletic, which is a phrase I never expect to say.

The Bowser statue thing in the second level is interesting but the level doesn't really do anything with it. Too bad, because otherwise the level is really just...there. (Also there's basically no DEATH WATER)
User avatar
Sugar
Posts: 1143
Joined: 14 years ago
Pronouns: fae/faer

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by Sugar »

Essentially when you hit non-firing Bowser statue it starts firing for some reason. That's it, no 1F0 involved. I think I saw that gimmick in VIP5 first?

I disagree with your claim that people hit the wall in VLDCX. Funny how you specifically mention non-constant Layer 2 scrolling in non-autoscrolling level however, S.N.N.'s level was pretty much about that, and yet it is extremely creative. Similarly, ft029's level used that one in a creative way, but it also had so many crazy gimmicks other than that one it's insane. And that's not all, there are so many other creative gimmicks that VLDCX. It's crazy how creative many of VLDCX levels are. It's much better than VLDC9 in that aspect.

And it's not that level designers ran out of creative ideas in VLDCX. In Staff Spotlight Lazy mentioned leading a little collab that will be released very soon on this C3. I don't want to spoil too much, considering it's not released, but I will say that much - it's a vanilla ROM hack (vanilla as in vanilla, only custom music was allowed, no SA-1, no custom graphics, no tileset mixing - the only ASM was saving on credits and two line level names) which is the most creative ROM hack I've ever played - some used weird never seen before mechanics, but some just used already known mechanics really well.
User avatar
Tyty
Posts: 50
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by Tyty »

What I meant by that is more... creativity doesn't always mean fun. Sure we haven't hit a wall in weird exploits but I've never found levels that use variable scroll interactive layer 2 very fun to play personally.

I don't think cranking up the weird interactions and things that, honestly actually do feel glitchy, is the answer to continuing vanilla design, but that's really more of a long drawn-out topic than I'd like to talk about. I know it's my opinion and I know a lot of people would disagree with me on that.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

The dumbest things can also be the most entertaining in the world.

(Also, we start Cave World)
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

The last level might in fact be my favorite level of the whole contest so far.
User avatar
Tyty
Posts: 50
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by Tyty »

I may be wrong about digging chuck. I always get the random pause confused between digging and punting and can't remember which one has it.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

I kept putting this one's edit off because of how long it was. It was chopped down from somewhere around 50 minutes of recording time. I still maintain the level is good, though I'm probably in the minority. There's a lot of trial and error but the objective is almost always clear--if you're willing to spend the time learning both timings and some of the intricacies of the SMW engine. And thank god for the Switch Palaces.

The second level is gonna get overshadowed by the first one since it's only two minutes long but it's a solid entry with a fun theme that's well developed. It deserves some good credit too.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

Thinking about it again, I dunno if I'd say the first level feels like 14th place but it's not bad or anything. Same sentiments for the second level, but in reverse.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

Image

"Take your time." Yeah right. I dunno what this level was trying to say with its message boxes but that's an outright lie from what we experienced. But it's not necessarily bad, just confusing and weird. I kinda liked it in places but overall it's probably pretty average. Another case of too many ideas.
User avatar
Sugar
Posts: 1143
Joined: 14 years ago
Pronouns: fae/faer

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by Sugar »

What happened is that the first version of VLDC9 base ROM for some reason broke Time Up deaths. This was a bug, and was fixed soon later, but author of this level decided to actually use this bug in their level for some reason. However, the bug wasn't inserted into a final level.
User avatar
FPzero
Resident SMW Central Admin
Posts: 635
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: SUPER MARIO 152 - FPzero & Tyty play VLDC9

Post by FPzero »

That's good to know. I had people on SA wondering about that.

Image

It's absolutely hard and I don't know how I would've gotten through certain parts without the switch palaces pressed, but overall I liked this level a lot more than I thought I would.
Post Reply