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VLDC9 - vanilla level design contest 9

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Re: VLDC9 - vistas leaving denatured colorants 9

Post by Grounder »

ft029 wrote:
Zephyr_DragonLord wrote:And I think why ninja boy gave a relatively high score to Short Cave was because there were some cool setups in there.
I feel the need to explain why ninja boy's scores are so wacky.

Each judge was given all of the levels in some order, so it was like 1.smc, 2.smc, 3.smc, etc. until like 110 or something. At the very beginning, ninja boy's judging was extremely harsh, but he got much more lenient later on. Short Cave was one of the last he played, which explains the relatively high score. ninja boy didn't bother to curve all of the judging afterwards, and now the scores are all crazy.

ninja boy also rewinds every single time he breathes. Some levels are much easier with savestates, but some other levels have a certain flow to them, and rewinds/savestates can break that flow.
That's pretty awful.
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by snoruntpyro »

I honestly find it super funny how Green Meadows got completely murdered by penalties and ended up being a level that tried really hard to be a boring 1-1 and got last because of it :P. It used ASM to change the tilemap of the pirahna plants' stems hence the glitchiness, and it also applied the SMB3 koopa patch (no beach koopas). Also, the orange fast line thing is directly ripped out of a later, actually good level that placed much higher. I don't know what was the creator's logic behind just taking it and using it for a bonus room and doing nothing interesting with it...?
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by Lockirby2 »

Wow, I totally did that puzzle at the start of Ninji Plains wrong. I backtracked with a Yoshi and got hit by the Charlie to make Yoshi run past the blue pipe. In hindsight, it should have been obvious that wasn't the correct answer. >.>

Although raocow just used the springboard everywhere, I think that the position of the key was hinted at well by the landmass it was sitting on.

I'm not sure if the naming gimmick is just "song titles" or if it's something more specific than that. I don't really listen to non-video game music.
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Re: VLDC9 - vistas leaving denatured colorants 9

Post by zagesaw »

ft029 wrote:ninja boy also rewinds every single time he breathes. Some levels are much easier with savestates, but some other levels have a certain flow to them, and rewinds/savestates can break that flow.
That explains why he gave one particular level a near perfect score, when it is one of the most frustrating levels to play without tools in the entire hack. Thankfully it got a green door. Did he also take secret exits into account of with his scoring? Obviously not.

When you casually play a level with savestates and rewinds you tend to focus on each obstacle individually and not the level as a whole. Level length is extremely important when balancing difficulty and you can't fairly judge it if you play through the whole thing with rewinds.
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Re: VLDC9 - vistas leaving denatured colorants 9

Post by Duker »

zagesaw wrote:
ft029 wrote:ninja boy also rewinds every single time he breathes. Some levels are much easier with savestates, but some other levels have a certain flow to them, and rewinds/savestates can break that flow.
That explains why he gave one particular level a near perfect score, when it is one of the most frustrating levels to play without tools in the entire hack. Thankfully it got a green door. Did he also take secret exits into account of with his scoring? Obviously not.

When you casually play a level with savestates and rewinds you tend to focus on each obstacle individually and not the level as a whole. Level length is extremely important when balancing difficulty and you can't fairly judge it if you play through the whole thing with rewinds.
But then again having to judge over 100 levels is rough, I can't say I blame him for trying save himself some time... the last MaGLX had similar problems IIRC with judge burnout leading to some very disputable scores due to the sheer amount of levels.
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Re: VLDC9 - vistas leaving denatured colorants 9

Post by S.N.N. »

zagesaw wrote:That explains why he gave one particular level a near perfect score, when it is one of the most frustrating levels to play without tools in the entire hack. Thankfully it got a green door. Did he also take secret exits into account of with his scoring? Obviously not.
I just want to add that in all my years of playing SMW levels, very few secret exits have frustrated me as much as the level you're referring to's did. Thankfully we're not going to get to it for a very long time, so perhaps I'll have calmed down by then.


Today's video: Lazy pointed this out in the comments, but the idea with the colored lines in Green Meadows was actually ripped off of another level in this contest (which does it much better too). That aside, Green Meadows is still a decent little romp level, but ultimately pretty bland.
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by Mata Hari »

I feel like if you're judging a contest light savestate use is acceptable because some amount of convenience is necessary for so many levels, but savestating every couple of steps is like no
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by Money »

I dunno, imo savestates have no real place in judging a conest if it's not like, a Kaizo contest, unless the judge is pushed to the point where they know that the level is far above their skill level (which shouldnt be often. ideally a judge would be proficient in whatever it is they're judging). Playing with savestates inherently impacts your grading, as many flaws dont start to shine until the deaths start piling up and you gotta replay trouble bits over and over.
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by Giant Ninji »

My way of doing things is playing legit the first time, then playing a couple more times afterwards with states and rewinds just to scrutinize the level even more.

An interesting note about DaSpongeBobMan's level, Green Meadows. During VLDC9, I made a review thread of all submitted levels (well, "all") while the contest was still going. Despite being a participant myself, I just liked the idea of giving feedback on all of the levels. In any case, I feel partly responsible for how Green Meadows ended up as. It was kinda ugly and very plain when it was first submitted, and was entirely only that main level with some differences here and there. Throughout the contest, DaSpongeBobMan kept making changes (which, from I feel like, were because of my thread), and although it was satisfactory by the time he submitted it before the deadline, he made more changes afterwards and resubmitted at the post-deadline deadline (that's were most of the penalties came from iirc). I want to say, though, that I made it clear in the thread that my write-ups are not perfect, and I don't really want to be responsible for making a level worse off than it was supposed to be. I guess that gives me comfort that it was my fault that Green Meadows turned out as low as it did ????????

In any case, yeah, the secret exit was ripped off a much better level (that should've been in best tbh...). Also when it said "sometimes you'll fall off" it wasn't kidding. raocow was lucky. There is an obnoxious amount of spots where the platform just falls off, so I'm honestly surprised raocow didn't find any of those.
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Re: VLDC9 - vistas leaving denatured colorants 9

Post by Sugar »

S.N.N. wrote:
zagesaw wrote:That explains why he gave one particular level a near perfect score, when it is one of the most frustrating levels to play without tools in the entire hack. Thankfully it got a green door. Did he also take secret exits into account of with his scoring? Obviously not.
I just want to add that in all my years of playing SMW levels, very few secret exits have frustrated me as much as the level you're referring to's did. Thankfully we're not going to get to it for a very long time, so perhaps I'll have calmed down by then.


Today's video: Lazy pointed this out in the comments, but the idea with the colored lines in Green Meadows was actually ripped off of another level in this contest (which does it much better too). That aside, Green Meadows is still a decent little romp level, but ultimately pretty bland.
I disagree about a rip-off myself. Red line thing (read: 1F0) is not that unique, it was seen before in Sokobansolver's and Morsel's VLDC7 entries (sure, it wasn't red, but that's a minor detail). In fact, I considered making a level with that thing, with faster line guide actually marked red (it seemed like an obvious thing to do). But I didn't finish the level, so whatever.

Also, that secret exit is so bad. There is a reason why I mentioned that SIMPLE PATH is not even the worst secret exit in VLDC9 ("there is only one worse secret exit in the entire thing, and it's so bad that the ROM hack just lets you skip it"). The secret exit in question takes bad secret exits to the form of art.
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by raocow »

Lockirby2 wrote: I'm not sure if the naming gimmick is just "song titles" or if it's something more specific than that. I don't really listen to non-video game music.
as always, 'song titles' is technically accurate but much too broad
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by ft029 »

DaSpongeBobMan literally used the same exact red and blue colors.

I'm not sure what's up with that guy, but I don't feel like ranting here
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by FrozenQuills »

Koopster seems to be busy, so I may as well post the comments.

108th: GREEN MEADOWS by DaSpongeBobMan
PENALTY REASONING: 5 days late (-30) and using ASM for piranha plant stems and making koopas stay in shells (-7)
(this effectively gave it a 0/60 instead of a 34.25/60, which puts it in last place but not in worst world)
Nimono
DESIGN: 15/30
CREATIVITY: 14/20
AESTHETICS: 6/10
TOTAL: 35/60
A nice rompy level, however, the secret exit path is very frustrating. First, there's no easy way to get the Springboard needed to reach the Key, and killing the two enemies that will allow you to get up there without grabbing it means you have to reset the level, and once you're on the line-guided platform, the wonky red line mechanics mean you'll probably fall off a die a lot, thus needing to redo the Springboard grab.

ninja boy
DESIGN: 14/30
CREATIVITY: 14/20
AESTHETICS: 8/10
TOTAL: 36/60
This level would of scored higher on the design if it weren't for the fact that the secret exit platform had the habit of dropping the player off of it when transferring from red to black lines.

Eternity
DESIGN: 15/30
CREATIVITY: 12/20
AESTHETICS: 7/10
TOTAL: 34/60
Fairly standard grassland level, it doesn't stand out from the rest in any way as it pretty much only uses generic onbstacles and a fairly common sprite selection. Aethetically it's simple, but still decently looking.

OTHER: No idea on why you made it so the Koopas don't come out of their shells when you jump on them, fairly sure that's not vanilla.

Koopster
DESIGN: 14/30
CREATIVITY: 10/20
AESTHETICS: 8/10
TOTAL: 32/60
The rompiest of romps! The main level isn't more than "a grassland level". No crimes here, it just doesn't stand out in the context of a contest! Though I do have some issues with the secrets. I thought the first dragon coin, the secret path and especially the key were really random to find. I have a huge issue with the key in particular since you can only find it by springing yourself everywhere in the level. The secret sublevel has that nice red lines gimmick I have seen in another level a while ago, but it doesn't do anything special with it, sadly!

71st: NINJI PLAINS by Reggiamoto
Nimono
DESIGN: 10/30
CREATIVITY: 11/20
AESTHETICS: 5/10
TOTAL: 26/60
...What. You start practically at the end of the level where staying still will get you quickly killed while you try to figure out what's going on, going right is way too easy, but going left gets you an incredibly tough and apparently pointless challenge?? Huh?? I'm confused...

ninja boy
DESIGN: 15/30
CREATIVITY: 10/20
AESTHETICS: 5/10
TOTAL: 30/60
This level was very pleasing to look at but was more or less a standard grass level

Eternity
DESIGN: 19/30
CREATIVITY: 14/20
AESTHETICS: 7/10
TOTAL: 40/60
Simple but fun, but overall there's nothing that really stands out here. If Yoshi was used a bit more throughout, or the obstcles were a bit more interesting, this could be higher, but right now it's pretty much a generic grassland level.

Koopster
DESIGN: 19/30
CREATIVITY: 12/20
AESTHETICS: 9/10
TOTAL: 40/60
A little, simple, pleasant level~ It uses a big lot of gimmicks and doesn't really use them other than in simple ways, but they sometimes make for interesting setups, even though sometimes they feel out of place in a proper difficulty curve. There's also some setups that felt odd and out of place, like the midpoint placement... overall, a nice "romp" with sparks of creativity. The first dragon coin "puzzle" is really interesting, although it's not too hard to screw it up because of camera shenaningans.

..I think Nimono had a different experience from the other judges on Reggiamoto's level.
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by Koopster »

...oh hey, thanks! I was just about to post them lol, but I did almost forget.
(Terrible day this has been, spent the entire day reinstalling Windows due to an issue I had and now I get to reinstall all of my programs with terrible, terrible internet. seriously I'm at like 10KB/s)

DaSpongeBobMan's score is effectively -2.75, it's pretty amazing

I was surprised raocow spent so long in Reggiamoto's level - guess he was a bit unlucky all around lol. I'm glad you figured out the dragon coin puzzle at least, that one's a bit obscure.
And yeah, you don't need to get a midpoint or goal to save the dragon coins if you got all five, they'll just get saved normally.

Tomorrow is gonna be a bit more boring I think.
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Re: VLDC9 - vistas leaving denatured colorants 9

Post by 10204307 »

GlitchMr wrote:
S.N.N. wrote:Today's video: Lazy pointed this out in the comments, but the idea with the colored lines in Green Meadows was actually ripped off of another level in this contest (which does it much better too). That aside, Green Meadows is still a decent little romp level, but ultimately pretty bland.
I disagree about a rip-off myself. Red line thing (read: 1F0) is not that unique, it was seen before in Sokobansolver's and Morsel's VLDC7 entries (sure, it wasn't red, but that's a minor detail). In fact, I considered making a level with that thing, with faster line guide actually marked red (it seemed like an obvious thing to do). But I didn't finish the level, so whatever.
Yeah the fast line thing isn't a "new" feature, and using it in that way isn't really ripping off anything, it's just using a mechanic that's present in the game.

The main issue is that the level doesn't really do a whole lot with them?
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by ft029 »

I think Reggiamoto was testing something, so he moved the entrance way further ahead in the level than it was supposed to be. Then, he forgot to change it back. That's why Nimono wrote that. Maybe it was fixed before the other judges touched it.
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by WYE »

raocow wrote:
Lockirby2 wrote: I'm not sure if the naming gimmick is just "song titles" or if it's something more specific than that. I don't really listen to non-video game music.
as always, 'song titles' is technically accurate but much too broad
Googling the song titles, it looks to be "songs from albums titled 9 or Nine". Which is fitting given the hack's name.

(And also exciting because I passive-listened to Eros Ramazzotti's 9 when I was younger - my mother put it on a lot - and I'm looking forward to seeing part of the soundtrack of my childhood referenced. :-) )
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by Cirno »

^ I just figured that out and came here to post it, but I was beaten by two minutes. I can hear Sonic taunting me now :(
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by Nimono »

FrozenQuills wrote:..I think Nimono had a different experience from the other judges on Reggiamoto's level.
I did. When I entered the level, it's at the blue slanted Pipe that raocow had a problem with. It never put me at the actual start of the level.
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by S.N.N. »

I'm more excited for tomorrow than I was for today. One of my personal favorites is coming up.

(the rest of grass world is also pretty cool from here on - that bottom portion is the bit that's a tad on the bland side)
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by Mata Hari »

oh man more football spam

And yeah I agree with raocow that Nimono significantly underrated the aesthetics of the first level, but all the other judges rated it well, NinjaBoy gave it a 9 which I wouldn't've, so who cares really.
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by leod »

did carol make that overworld?!?!
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Re: VLDC9 - verdant lighthearted daytime charm 9

Post by Nimono »

Mata Hari wrote:oh man more football spam

And yeah I agree with raocow that Nimono significantly underrated the aesthetics of the first level, but all the other judges rated it well, NinjaBoy gave it a 9 which I wouldn't've, so who cares really.
To be quite honest, when I look at the level now... I have to agree. Why DIDN'T I rate it better? o_O I don't even remember at this point. I guess maybe at that point I couldn't look past the fact that it was "oh, just the original SMW tileset but with minor additions, yawn".

who the heck knows
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Re: VLDC9 - viridescent landslides dazzling canals 9

Post by FrozenQuills »

Grassy Grotto was underrated imo. I liked how it uses the grassy platform in interesting ways considering how they are not used very often.
Wasn't really much of a fan of Saturation Plains though. The second half felt a bit messy with the line guide shenanigans.
Pipeside is annoying but it has a weird but cool concept; getting that 1-up from the star block at the end is basically one of the hardest things ever.
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Re: VLDC9 - viridescent landslides dazzling canals 9

Post by Lockirby2 »

Pipeside felt like a level that you just play a few times until you fluke out. Saturation Plains is the one level that I saw before playing through the contest, and it had a lot more baffling design decisions (like the message box pointing out the starman) before Someguy712x made some recommendations. I liked Grassy Grotto though.
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