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MaGL 3 results: moral of the story: laziness always prevails

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
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Voltgloss
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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby Voltgloss » 3 years ago

MoneyMan wrote:My favorite unsung joke in CBL's level is CONTINUE BUT SAVE
I liked the starting choice between "1 player game" and "3 player game." The world needs more specifically-for-3-players games.
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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby Mata Hari » 3 years ago

Saying something goes at the speed of a thousand porcupines doesn't make sense because a thousand porcupines would go at the same speed as a single porcupine, unless you yanked out all the porcupines' quills, strapped boards to their backs, stacked them all one on top of the other, and had them all run forward at the exact same time, in which case the top porcupine would go at the speed of a single porcupine multiplied by a thousand, relative to the ground

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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby underFlo » 3 years ago

put all those porcupines in exactly the same place so as soon as you let them go free the porcupines spread out so the speed of the farthest porcupine is at least 500 porcupines per frame
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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby Mandew » 3 years ago

one out of a thousand porcupine is still not Sonic the Hedgehog
video games

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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby FPzero » 3 years ago

Arctangent wrote:*A long, good post about the nature of romps and their place in contests.*
The only concern I have is that if we start discounting romps does that mean the contest should skew more towards being a Make a Good Gimmick Level contest? I'm exaggerating a little, but maybe there should be a line in the criteria for the Fun or Creativity scores for "does the level display a central focus?" A unique idea like Creativity mentions differs from a central focus in that you can have unique ideas without actually building the level around them, whereas you can have a focused level built with existing resources. Obviously the two can be combined and represent the ideal situation.

Some thoughts to keep in mind for the next contest criteria if the general consensus is that romps (which are likely to be less focused) don't score as well as gimmicks.

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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby CrappyBlueLuigi » 3 years ago

Arctangent wrote:
MoneyMan wrote:My favorite unsung joke in CBL's level is CONTINUE BUT SAVE
That made me grin, too. I'm kinda sad that rao didn't seem to spot it.
Voltgloss wrote:
MoneyMan wrote:My favorite unsung joke in CBL's level is CONTINUE BUT SAVE
I liked the starting choice between "1 player game" and "3 player game." The world needs more specifically-for-3-players games.
this makes me super happy. i'm glad my level design had at least enough quality to drop me at the bottom of the top quarter of the rankings, but it's even better that i got to make some people laugh or smile with my dumb gags.

on that note, i'm glad the secret exit text boxes landed as well as they did with raocow. there was a bit where i was worried they'd be taken too seriously...
that exchange really did happen, by the way

anyway here the Cool Developer Commentary i promised, copied straight from my comment on the youtube video like a professional:
CrappyBlueLuigi wrote:hey! wow! first off, holy jesus did i not expect to get this far. my expectations rose a bit the closer you got to 12th place (which was my joke estimation in the contest discussion thread, back when there were only THIRTY ENTRIES), but i'm still damn happy with 17th place. (17th, part 27, 7flight... lucky 7 for me, i guess)

i'm gonna spout off the obligatory developer commentary , so for anyone tuning out, here's the OST if you want it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOo5MPG93XE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKCURJEOV5w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebGyIFlREQo

also, a behind-the-scenes video i made like a week ago that i made public now that raocow played my level: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p-KVyE_MY0

i had NO IDEA what i was doing for this contest until randomly, while messing around with ideas for a pretty boring grassland level, i typed "BUTTSMASH VILLA" into the level name on the world map in lunar magic. then a couple days later, i was so unfocused with what i was making that i decided to use that name as inspiration and started thinking of gimmicks i could work with.

"'buttsmash', so like... ground pound? i could make a level about ground-pounding" i said to myself before all the existing ground pound asm patches i found proceeded to Not Work At All on my existing rom. hm, what else... well, i guess thwomps have butts, and they go smash BAM

THEN I MADE THE LEVEL

BOOM BAM BOOM

that's almost literally it. once i decided on thwomps, i found the thwomp-crush blocks on smwcentral, looked up reference images of villas (which i barely used anyway but they inspired the white/black brick tiles) and got to work on tiles.

the only other thing worth noting is that i went for an up-and-down sort of flow for the level, and focused on challenge escalation in bits. there's the couple of jump-through platforms at the beginning, which becomes a series of horizontally-separated platforms within easy jumping distance later on.

after the midpoint the same setup comes back, but spaced further apart vertically and with a pit beneath it so there's a slight element of danger to it, and then it gets kinda flipped on its head with the top-to-bottom flow of the thwomp run.

jeez, thanks to anyone who read all of this. it's super validating to have people feel interested in the things you make. i dunno if i'm gonna work with lunar magic any further than this, but it might be fun in the future! maybe... maybe when school's over.
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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby TaviTurnip » 3 years ago

Those levels both easily deserved top 20. Great job, you two. CBL's level was super aesthetically nice and also made Thwomps funny and that is hard for me to say `~`
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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby nathanisbored » 3 years ago

Arctangent wrote:double post because entirely different topic woooo

Whatever systems are in place with the checkpoints and respawning in Mandew's level should honestly be commonplace. That looked waaaaaaay better than the whole rigmarole of getting tossed to the map screen after every death, especially when you consider that most people aren't nearly so generous with midpoints.

Only really issue I can think of is the fact that either lives or the timer should be tossed out - both of them serve the exact same purpose with that sort of system and it mostly just seems annoying to do well and have plenty of lives but not being able to use them to the fullest due to the timer, or to be given plenty of time in a level but not being able to take advantage of it due to the fact that you didn't life farm previously.
I like having the timer there, it reminds me of super marisa world, where your lives reset at the start of each level, so each level is its own challenge that you have to do in a certain number of lives, and if the timer runs out, it's game over and you have to start the level all over. It also reminds me of marisa world because enemies stay dead and coins stay collected. I think that's a good way to balance it, although I disagree that this should be in every hack or something.

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Re: MaGL 3 results: blueluigi's not so crappy after all

Postby The Doctor » 3 years ago

Going back to the rompy level discussion, I think that Buttstomp Villa is a great example of a well designed rompy level. It's short and easy, but with a strong identity of its own and gorgeous graphics. Even rompy levels need something a little more than walk to the right and jump on goombas.

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Re: MaGL 3 results: but first, we need to talk about parallel universes

Postby CrappyBlueLuigi » 3 years ago

Grounder wrote:
Parama wrote:i will be severely disappointed if "a guy" does not win
what about crappyblueluigi
sorry to disappoint
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Re: MaGL 3 results: blueluigi's not so crappy after all

Postby Cyril » 3 years ago

a guy 2016

I believe
i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: MaGL 3 results: blueluigi's not so crappy after all

Postby Le Neveu de Rameau » 3 years ago

Fire Crep (though not the normal version) looks to me as though he should be wearing a bib-like neckerchief. This is probably because his outfit in this color scheme reminds me of a stereotypical 19th-century train engineer. The requisite stripes, we assume, are implied, but simply not visible at 16x32 resolution.


(choo-choo)

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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby Arctangent » 3 years ago

FPzero wrote:stuff
Yeah, that'd definitely be far better since I don't imagine the majority of entrants actually follow level design dissection or the like. Though that won't completely solve the issue, exactly for the same reason - even with that little note, I can't imagine everyone would exactly understand it, especially people who are new or don't really have a method aside from throwing stuff in a blender. But then again, that's probably unavoidable; game design as a whole is an artform, and you just need to get experience with it to truly get great at it, even if you are familiar with a lot of the theory.

( and before anyone says anything, every artform has its theory and its reasons for following it - for every masterpiece that breaks the mold and creates something extremely fresh and original, there's perhaps a hundred others that tried to break the same conventions and failed because of it. Knowing the theory behind something is just as important, if not even more important, for experimenting away from it as it is for following it to a T )

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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby nothobz » 3 years ago

Pyro wrote:I did noot care for nonlinearity in this contest. It just flew over my head and never registered as anything worth thinking about. [...] I look for creativity and stuff that I've never seen before in terms of gameplay in levels to consider them truly great. [...] Hill Top Harbor did not provide anything new and was just a rompy nothing level that I blasted through in a few minutes. Honestly I find this level super insulting, because it's very clear that tons of effort was put into the level with all the aesthetics, but it was wasted on making a safe beach level that I will probably forget about in a year or so.
under-lined for emphasis. I read all the posts leading up to this to make sure I wasn't mis-representing you here, and since it seems like I'm not

this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. the categories we made a level under were Fun, Difficulty, Creativity, and Aesthetics. If Aesthetics only count if the level has a good gimmick, then why is Aesthetics even a category? If the only thing that matters is having a gimmick then why even have different scoring categories at all. Why wasn't it immediately established that the only thing that matters in your level is a good gimmick?

oh yeah, because that doesn't make any sense. Judging a level based on the elements it doesn't have rather than the things it does have is what I find super insulting. and yeah sure I agree with everything Arctangent is saying, but remember you're talking about a contest where everybody makes a fun little level so they can watch raocow play it. This isn't the olympic romhacking games, it's fun. I think it's stupid to try to discriminate against people that are new to romhacking or just cant think of a good gimmick because of some arbitrary rules it seems only one judge passionately believes in. but that's my two cents

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Re: MaGL 3 results: blueluigi's not so crappy after all

Postby Arctangent » 3 years ago

What discrimination?

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Re: MaGL 3 results: blueluigi's not so crappy after all

Postby Tyty » 3 years ago

I absolutely adored the spritework in today's first level and the second one was my favorite in the whole contest. Despite being certifiably bad at video games I didn't have issues with time or anything and once it clicked that the level was repeating horizontally I was absolutely enamored. It's the first time I've felt that sense of novelty in a video game in a very long time.

I have a feeling I know how the top 5 or so are going to play out. It's everything inbetween I'm not sure about.

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Re: MaGL 3 results: blueluigi's not so crappy after all

Postby Pyro » 3 years ago

nothobz wrote:stuff
I didn't say aesthetics only matter if there's a good gimmick...? I gave Hill Top Harbor a 10 in aesthetics. Hell, I gave Willhart's an 8 or something. Aesthetics were never affected by fun and fun was never affected by aesthetics. The thing is, I don't have fun in rompy levels normally. I just don't. I just blast through them and dont get any satisfaction out of beating them. There's no "wow" factor. Also, I said "truly great", not "good". There's plenty of good levels in this contest. I'd consider some levels back in the 50s and 40s good. But the truly GREAT levels, the ones that make Top 10, have something TO them, something to remember. One of the categories is "Creativity" :/. It's the "Make a Good Level Contest", there isn't some ultimate standard for "good". The highest ranking levels in the Make a Good Level Contest would, presumably, be the good...est. And my idea of a great level is a fun, creative level that presents something NEW, something that's never or rarely been seen before, or some expansion on some previous idea. There's plenty of levels that are romps that take place on a beach and look pretty, and there's plenty of automatic levels, but you can't tell me that there's a bajillion forest levels with a walljump patch and a platform race and a spooky second half with a looping gimmick. There's multiple judges for a reason, too, because they all have different perspectives on good levels and as such there's varied opinions.

I was probably more insulted by Hill Top Harbor because I'm sick of contests where the boring levels that look pretty and take no risks are beaten by creative levels just because the former looks nice, and Hill Top Harbor looked like it was trying to be that whole thing where it'd steal top 10 because it looks really good. I was disappointed that the level put almost all of its effort into (in my opinion) the least important part of level design.
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Re: MaGL 3 results: blueluigi's not so crappy after all

Postby S.N.N. » 3 years ago

JUDGES' SCORES AND COMMENTS FOR 17th AND 16th PLACE:

17th: CrappyBlueLuigi
-FROZENQUILLS-
FUN: 12/30
DIFFICULTY: 5/5
CREATIVITY: 6/10
AESTHETICS: 10/10 (5/5 GFX + 5/5 MUS)
FUNCTIONALITY: 5/5

TOTAL: 38/60

COMMENTS:
Pretty alright and fun overall.

This is pretty much Thwomps breaking things: the level. While
the concept is cool, and the gimmick was executed fairly well,
it just felt like a romp with a bunch of thwomps in it. The
secret exit was questionable as well since I had to collect
just the right coins to create a stepladder to the keyhole.

I did enjoy the second half, where the player
has to race underneath thwomps in order to stay safe.

The graphics and music are very well done too, so congrats
with that. I just felt that it could have been more enjoyable
and creative as a whole, but what you have is fine nonetheless.

TLDR:
+ Nice thwomp gimmick
+ Excellent aesthetics
- Could have been more interesting with its gimmick/setups

OTHER:
im pretty sure 8flight is alright with whatever happened


-PYRO-
Fun: 16/30
Difficulty: 3/5
Creativity: 5/10
Aesthetics: 9/10
Functionality: 5/5
Total: 38/60
Comment: This was super nice! Your gimmick was simple but it was utilized in a bunch of fun ways, and the secret exit was a pretty neat challenge! And apparently you drew all graphics yourself, and I have to say - super great job in that aspect! The graphics look super nice and the :3 thwomp made me very happy :3 :3 :3. Super nice level tho~~~!!


-KOOPSTER-
FUN: 23/30
DIFFICULTY: 4/5
CREATIVITY: 8/10
AESTHETICS: 9/10
FUNCTIONALITY: 5/5

TOTAL SCORE: 49/60

For a first time using Lunar Magic this is quite overwhelming with graphics, lol. (but your graphics are very good) This stage was really fun and it focused and developed on an interesting gimmick, which I always appreciate on level design! A bit on the short side, though, and pretty expansive - the enemies and setups are rather apart from one another, especially in the second half. I also felt some setups were a bit annoying and easy to screw up, ESPECIALLY the secret exit. Feels like it could've had a bit more y'know, but again, for a first time in SMW? this is really really great!!


-S.N.N.-
FUN: 23/30
DIFFICULTY: 4/5
CREATIVITY: 6/10
AESTHETICS: 7/10
FUNCTIONALITY: 5/5

TOTAL: 45/60

COMMENTS: This is a cool level that focuses on one particular gimmick (the Thwomps + cracked floors). If it's really your first level, then I'm impressed. I found that the part where you had to run all the way right over the one-tile gaps and then back to the left rather pointless, as you could fall in a few different spots and be fairly safe (not to mention the Thwomps never had a chance to crash all the way down). Otherwise, the music/graphics were a nice touch and the level was fun overall.


16th: Mandew
-FROZENQUILLS-
FUN: 18/30
DIFFICULTY: 5/5
CREATIVITY: 8/10
AESTHETICS: 5/10 (2/5 GFX + 3/5 MUS)
FUNCTIONALITY: 5/5

TOTAL: 41/60

COMMENTS:
What a cool and cute level!

The wall jumps were pretty nice, and combining them with an
autoscroller like moving platform was pretty cool. I
enjoyed trying to rush through the obstacles to catch up with
my ride, and some of the wall jump setups were creative.

The second sublevel was also really neat since it adds this
really smooth level wrapping combined with the moving platforms
and wall jumping, and it all flows very well.

I loved the little touches when you die, and the multipoints
were well spaced and so there's not much to redo
if you mess up.

The only suggestions I have are that the aesthetics could be
nicer and that more could have been done with the gimmicks.

Overall though, nice job with this.

TLDR:
+ Great combination of moving platforms, wall jumping, and wrap
- Could have been even more engaging

OTHER:
i like how when you run out of time you get bonus game music
randomly


-PYRO-
Fun: 19/30
Difficulty: 3/5
Creativity: 7/10
Aesthetics: 8/10
Functionality: 5/5
Total: 42/60
Comment: Nice level! The wall kick was utilized well and I really liked the weird looping design of the second half. The platform sprite was used really well too, there were some nice challenges and races with it. I kinda wish it went on for a bit longer, though? I just was kinda enjoying it and then the end just kinda showed up. Also it was super nice to see a retry system. I think the only real 'gripe' I would have with this is that it's a tiny bit more tedious than I think it should be to respawn the platforms in the second half, but it's a really minor nitpick in an otherwise pretty good level.


-KOOPSTER-
FUN: 26/30
DIFFICULTY: 5/5
CREATIVITY: 8/10
AESTHETICS: 8/10
FUNCTIONALITY: 5/5

TOTAL SCORE: 52/60

Wow, neat! But I can't help but feel this was made too easy for all the advantages you have - a million midpoints, instant respawning, etc. - and it ended a bit suddenly too. I wouldn't mind a longer level. Those are my only complaints though, this was really fun!


-S.N.N.-
FUN: 19/30
DIFFICULTY: 2/5
CREATIVITY: 8/10
AESTHETICS: 6/10
FUNCTIONALITY: 3/5

TOTAL: 38/60

COMMENTS: I expect this may be my most controversial rating, but I really didin't enjoy this at all. I kind of liked where it was going in the first section, but the second section gets very confusing and much more difficult out of nowhere. The wall jumping you have to do between the two pipes with the purple triangle is extremely tough, especially when the wall jump controls aren't the best to begin with (another entry in this contest has smoother controls, but with these, you have to hold the opposite direction and jump - it feels weird). Also, I didnt't touch a midway in the second room but respawned there when I died - not sure if this was intentional. Overall, I feel like there's a genuinely good concept here, but the second half goes overboard compared to the first half and the controls feel too stiff for this to be an enjoyable experience.


Just wanted to give a shout-out to that composition in your level, CBL. Like, it's super simple, but it clicks with me for whatever reason. Perhaps it's triggering some sort of subconscious nostalgia, but regardless, it sets the mood perfectly - I'd love to hear a non-SMW version of it.

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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby TheTimeBard » 3 years ago

nathanisbored wrote: I like having the timer there, it reminds me of super marisa world, where your lives reset at the start of each level, so each level is its own challenge that you have to do in a certain number of lives, and if the timer runs out, it's game over and you have to start the level all over. It also reminds me of marisa world because enemies stay dead and coins stay collected. I think that's a good way to balance it, although I disagree that this should be in every hack or something.
Holy crap you just sold me on that level. Initially, I looked at the timer not resetting and immediately thought "ewwww, that won't be good" but you have a point. Luckily, the level was well designed enough that, while watching the video, I didn't see any points where it looked like the timer would be a problem. Super kudos to Mandew for making something so different about which we can arguably say "That might work in a full hack."
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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby Sebby19 » 3 years ago

TheTimeBard wrote:Super kudos to Mandew for making something so different about which we can arguably say "That might work in a full hack."
I give a thumbs up as well.
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Re: MaGL 3 results: blueluigi's not so crappy after all

Postby Zephyr_DragonLord » 3 years ago

I'm just going to say that I love both of these levels. The dumb gags in CBL's title screen really made me smile. 3 player games would be lovely...
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Re: MaGL 3 results: blueluigi's not so crappy after all

Postby Le Neveu de Rameau » 3 years ago

Honestly, I've probably played far more 3-player rounds of SMW in my time than I ever have 2-player. All ya gots ta do is pass the controller.

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Re: MaGL 3 results: blueluigi's not so crappy after all

Postby ft029 » 3 years ago

Yeah, the feeling of trying to catch up with the platform was super awesome. as for walljumping, one should understand that it's better to be slow and steady-- always make sure you're holding the correct button before jumping, or else you'll waste more time overall.

Also, congrats to Mandew for the first 19+/30 fun level in this contest from Pyro?
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Re: MaGL 3 results: blueluigi's not so crappy after all

Postby ano0maly » 3 years ago

Re: previous page and Arctangent in particular

Aren't contest levels in particular need to be judged individually and not relative to other levels? If a series of rompy or whatever levels happens, that shouldn't mean the next level should be judged based on those others. I can understand judges getting fatigued over seeing the same thing several times, but then again that's not the fault of the individual level makers. They didn't coordinate with each other when making their own separate levels.

In a collab it's different - you want to coordinate with other level makers to form a cohesive game. If one person's making one thing then there may be need for some organization so that another person isn't making something too redundant right next to it without a good reason.
TheTimeBard wrote:
nathanisbored wrote: I like having the timer there, it reminds me of super marisa world, where your lives reset at the start of each level, so each level is its own challenge that you have to do in a certain number of lives, and if the timer runs out, it's game over and you have to start the level all over. It also reminds me of marisa world because enemies stay dead and coins stay collected. I think that's a good way to balance it, although I disagree that this should be in every hack or something.
Holy crap you just sold me on that level. Initially, I looked at the timer not resetting and immediately thought "ewwww, that won't be good" but you have a point. Luckily, the level was well designed enough that, while watching the video, I didn't see any points where it looked like the timer would be a problem. Super kudos to Mandew for making something so different about which we can arguably say "That might work in a full hack."
I think that's my favorite thing about Mandew's level too now that nathanisbored brought it up.
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Re: MaGL 3 results: blueluigi's not so crappy after all

Postby Arctangent » 3 years ago

ano0maly wrote:I can understand judges getting fatigued over seeing the same thing several times, but then again that's not the fault of the individual level makers.
I don't understand where you got that from any of this. Not only did I say anything to this effect ... I can't think of a single person that did?

Are you sure you aren't mistaking "seeing the same thing" in a lifetime context for that? Because that's significantly different, and of course you'd drag in your experiences from outside the contest to judge a level - you'd have significantly less context for the metrics otherwise, and it's kinda hard to tell what's new and interesting and creative if, y'know, everything's new and interesting and creative to you.


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