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MaGL 3 results: moral of the story: laziness always prevails

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raocow
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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby raocow » 3 years ago

FPzero wrote: Speaking of, is there any way to request a username change on here? This is one of the only places online that I still have my super old username. I'd like to be "FPzero" for consistency.
Done!
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FPzero
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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby FPzero » 3 years ago

Awesome! Thanks.

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Kerkec
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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby Kerkec » 3 years ago

I'm a bit late to my own party, but thanks for enjoying my thing

not much to say, but in regards to the shortness of the level, due to computer issues I only had a few hours to work on it the night before submissions had to be in, so the short length was more out of necessity than design. might've been longer and had some power-ups and longer timer if I had time, but on the other hand maybe not overstaying its welcome helped it

also the random berry aesthetic was the result of my girlfriend telling me to "add more berry" every time I asked for suggestions while streaming my making of the level, so I can't take full credit here

...and I haven't watched today's video yet, so I have nothing relevant to say other than there's been a lot of good stuff so far. I will go back to seemingly not existing now

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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby Cyril » 3 years ago

the biggest issue i have with the first half of the level is that there's no way to know you'll need to disco shell the first time you go through the autoscroller, and since you can't go back, then, well, rip.
that's bad design.

the second half just looked genuinely unfun to play and is basically just flappy bird really. technologically impressive but really unfun.

oh and the first level was nice
i've honestly never played a video game in my life
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SAJewers
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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby SAJewers » 3 years ago

MECHDRAGON777 wrote:I want to know what the judges meant by "SA patch".
There's a patch that implements the SA-1 chip, and is supposed to help with slowdown and sprite limitations.

I would've used it in my level, had I known it existed before i was 3/4 through making my it.
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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby nathanisbored » 3 years ago

SAJewers wrote:
MECHDRAGON777 wrote:I want to know what the judges meant by "SA patch".
There's a patch that implements the SA-1 chip, and is supposed to help with slowdown and sprite limitations.

I would've used it in my level, had I known it existed before i was 3/4 through making my it.
I'm curious how this works... Slowdown makes sense, but the sprite limit is a software limitation, not a hardware limitation. It would have to actually be changing the size of the sprite tables and things, which seems like a pretty major overhaul of the memory layout. Is there documentation for what it actually changes?

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SAJewers
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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby SAJewers » 3 years ago

Sorry, by "help with sprite limitations", it increases the max # of sprites (I worded that badly).

https://www.smwcentral.net/?p=section&a ... s&id=12757
https://www.smwcentral.net/?p=viewthread&t=71953
Increases the maximum amount of sprites *on screen* to 22.
Increases the maximum amount of sprites *per level* to 255.
Moves the sprite processing code to SA-1, making all sprites gets processed 4 times as normally
Optimizes some routines to make the level loading faster.
Moves almost all non standard sprites, such as shooters, generators, cluster, extended, minor extended, bounce, score and smoke to SA-1 CPU.
Moves the block/map16 handling to SA-1 CPU.
Moves almost all overworld code to SA-1 side, leaving minimal CPU usage on overworld.
All other SA-1 features like 6 and 8MB support, 10.74 MHz CPU, Character Conversion DMA, fast RAM, etc.
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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby Alice » 3 years ago

Parama wrote:the biggest issue i have with the first half of the level is that there's no way to know you'll need to disco shell the first time you go through the autoscroller, and since you can't go back, then, well, rip.
I would actually argue that it's reasonably obvious. There's no other reason for that U bend design unless you're intended to goad the disco shell down. Though to be fair you're not given a whole lot of time to consider it either.

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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby ft029 » 3 years ago

Alice wrote:I would actually argue that it's reasonably obvious. There's no other reason for that U bend design unless you're intended to goad the disco shell down. Though to be fair you're not given a whole lot of time to consider it either.
This. I don't understand why out of everything wrong about Blue Podoboo's level, people are picking on this very minor design flaw--I'm not sure whether it's even a flaw or not, as I thought it was pretty creative. If anything should be picked on, it's that red herring barrel right before. It is possible to use it and survive, but it's RNG-based (like 80% of the time you hit lava somewhere), and I thought that was the only solution. Thus, I had tons of trouble on the first half of that level. It took a long time for me to accidentally realize that you can just go from one barrel to the next, even though it wasn't intuitive at all because angles and stuff.

The second half of the level is more like Geometry Dash, but whatever
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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby Money » 3 years ago

Yeah, gonna go on record and say im not a fan of blue podoboo's level. Or specifically, the rocket barrel section. "Lets drop the player off in this thing that controls incredibly erratically with 0 practice and if they make the tiniest error they instantly die" yeah no sorry, that's bad design. The first half had some interesting enough setups tho, and i really dig the escalation that the autoscroll provided. Could do without the red herring barrels, tho.

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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby nathanisbored » 3 years ago

SAJewers wrote:Sorry, by "help with sprite limitations", it increases the max # of sprites (I worded that badly).

https://www.smwcentral.net/?p=section&a ... s&id=12757
https://www.smwcentral.net/?p=viewthread&t=71953
Increases the maximum amount of sprites *on screen* to 22.
Increases the maximum amount of sprites *per level* to 255.
Moves the sprite processing code to SA-1, making all sprites gets processed 4 times as normally
Optimizes some routines to make the level loading faster.
Moves almost all non standard sprites, such as shooters, generators, cluster, extended, minor extended, bounce, score and smoke to SA-1 CPU.
Moves the block/map16 handling to SA-1 CPU.
Moves almost all overworld code to SA-1 side, leaving minimal CPU usage on overworld.
All other SA-1 features like 6 and 8MB support, 10.74 MHz CPU, Character Conversion DMA, fast RAM, etc.
yeah that's what i meant to. and yeah i was wondering how the memory was actually reorganized to accommodate 22 sprites (the sprite tables are nromally only 12 bytes)

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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby ft029 » 3 years ago

MoneyMan wrote:Or specifically, the rocket barrel section. "Lets drop the player off in this thing that controls incredibly erratically with 0 practice and if they make the tiniest error they instantly die" yeah no sorry, that's bad design.
I get how that part can be super challenging. I had a multitude of trouble on the first half. I never used a rocket barrel before (I do have the lite version of Geometry Dash though). and... I somehow did the second half in one try. I guess it's a thing that eats away at your patience once you die a few times.
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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby Reecer7 » 3 years ago

i harbor a lot of good feeling towards that second level.
call me reecer6, not reecer7, please! gotta maintain that same internet brand.
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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby Mata Hari » 3 years ago

That's a lot of things disappearing in SAJ's level, dang.

Also Sweet-Tooth Harbour is a great concept that raocow pulled out of his arse while rambling, good job man

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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby Money » 3 years ago

My favorite detail in that second level is the fish drowning in the oil

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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby Kles » 3 years ago

Hey, I have a question about episode 25. Two levels used Hot-Head Bop as the level music, but the second level's instrumentation was much more accurate to the original. On the other hand, the first level's version of In A Snow-Bound Land was accurate to the original. I don't know how the music works in SMW, but why is this? Is it simply a matter of the level creator choosing a less accurate port, or is there a technical reason?

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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby Mandew » 3 years ago

Kles wrote:Hey, I have a question about episode 25. Two levels used Hot-Head Bop as the level music, but the second level's instrumentation was much more accurate to the original. On the other hand, the first level's version of In A Snow-Bound Land was accurate to the original. I don't know how the music works in SMW, but why is this? Is it simply a matter of the level creator choosing a less accurate port, or is there a technical reason?
Most musics on SMWC have "unsampled" and "sampled" versions - perhaps even multiple "sampled" versions. A "Sampled" version means that it uses instruments not in vanilla SMW. It's easy to also change how instruments sound by messing with the instructions in the .txt file.

There's also one other thing to consider - Sound Effects can occupy the same Sound Channels as some of the instruments. Hot Head Bop, in particular, tends to make weird noises because Mario interrupts one of its channel when he jumps and collects coins. That second level didn't have Mario jump a whole lot, and the cannon sound doesn't hurt it as much.
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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby FPzero » 3 years ago

I'll have a better post about the level overall later today when I have more time to sit down and write it. I'm a little surprised that we only made 18th; no lie, we both kind of thought we'd place higher. Sorry if that sounds presumptuous.

Regardless, I'm very interested to read the judge commentary on the level. I can think of one or two things that might have lowered the score but I thought they would be minor deductions if anything.

I'm real happy that raocow enjoyed the heck out of it though. He enjoyed it so much he fully enabled his Rambletron 3000. He also came super close to finding the hidden moon and message box in the level...

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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby Le Neveu de Rameau » 3 years ago

Wait a minute, that's not Iris, that's just some sort of royal blue Demo! You can't rewrite history like that!

Seriously, though, I do love the atmosphere of SAJewers' level; there's just something so soothing about Indigo Demo riding a winged platform through outer space. That said, a lot of the obstacles seem to be a little too based around already knowing what's coming, and not in a way the R-scrolling is sufficient to reveal. The final challenge is a good example of this; you have a matter of seconds to A) hit the ?-block with the throw block, B) notice nothing really happens, and realize you're now expected to jump on the used block to activate the block snake, C) pray the blocks clear out in time for you to reach the flying platform again, D) reach the flying platform again. The execution in and of itself (especially hitting the ?-block in time) is a non-negligible challenge with the relatively tight schedule you're working on; actually processing everything you need to do on top of this seems extremely unlikely on your first few tries, making this an example of learning-by-dying. And since this is at the very end of an stage which runs at a fixed (and slowish) pace, it's really not the best neighborhood to found such a school of hard knocks.

Also, I had serious issues with that totem pole not spawning half the time as well, which basically necessitates taking a hit. Admittedly, hit damage is not your primary foe here, so it's not necessarily a level-breaker, but it's still unfortunate.

I'm also a touch surprised Tyty and FPzero didn't score a few places higher; I thought their level was lovely, myself. Sure, it doesn't try to do anything revolutionary, but it is fun, well-designed, and generally leaves you feeling good about yourself and the world. It's also highly polished and completely gorgeous, and really succeeds in drawing you into its environment. Hopes aside, you guys may have not have won the contest, but you certainly won a place in our hearts.

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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby Kles » 3 years ago

FPzero wrote:I'll have a better post about the level overall later today when I have more time to sit down and write it. I'm a little surprised that we only made 18th; no lie, we both kind of thought we'd place higher. Sorry if that sounds presumptuous.

Regardless, I'm very interested to read the judge commentary on the level. I can think of one or two things that might have lowered the score but I thought they would be minor deductions if anything.

I'm real happy that raocow enjoyed the heck out of it though. He enjoyed it so much he fully enabled his Rambletron 3000. He also came super close to finding the hidden moon and message box in the level...
Hell, I'd have given it like 50 points just for the Etrian Odyssey 3 harbour theme.

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Re: MaGL 3 results: mario kong country

Postby SAJewers » 3 years ago

Wow, never saw those coins not spawn like that.

Also, to get this out of the way, this is actually my second SMW level, my first was this abomination I made shortly after MaGL1 to learn LM so I could participate in future MaGL contests.

Anyway, when I decided to enter, I originally planned on making a dumb "raocowservice" gag level (hence "O O P S", the A2MT resources, glitch level, etc.), but also wanted to try and use mostly stuff that was only in SMW, not SMBX. Spent about 20 mins browsing SMWC for music until I found Starry Skies, and decided to use that for level music (Later on I'd try using A2MT's Switch palace music, but it's slightly broken in AddMusicK, so I stuck with Starry Skies). I quickly decided after selecting my music to make a sky level, thought a scrolling BG would look cool, and ended up deciding to make a level based around the flying platform block, rather than make the scrolling BG work with a hex edit. Also, I decided to use vanilla SMW as a measuring stick on length, so the first half is 09 screens long, one screen longer than the first half of Valley of Bowser 3 (where the midpoint is on screen 08).

First half there's not much for me to say. The octobro you're supposed to just avoid the bananas, usually he'd despawn when starting going down. The Rabbits were originally a line of flying Goopas, but I found them finicky in regards to actually spawning, so I switched to the rabbits after someone in the contest discussion thread mentioned tile 1E. Third setup with the math platform was me trying to mix things up slightly.

Second half was a bit more frustrating to make, as first I had to deal with this bug that I couldn't figure out how to solve. In the end, I opted to shift everything over to the right (making the second half one screen longer than the first) and have an extra pipe to stand on at the start, plus having the player spawn at the midpoint on a flying platform block.

The whole level should be doable without screen scrolling (originally, I just had the R in coins so you could still see the flying platform block for the first setup of the first half, then later opted to design the level around a right screen scroll), but if you don't scroll the screen for the first setup of the second half, then you have to deal with the bullet generator (if you scroll the screen, you scroll the "turn off generator2" sprite on screen at the spring).

Second setup (with the totem) I did start to notice sprites not spawning, but almost always it was the right skeleton (which was only there to make things symmetrical, as the left skeleton is there to make the spinjump easier); I think only two or three times did the totem not spawn, and you were able to still do that section using the koopa generator anyway, so Ididn't worry too much.

Third setup was originally just 1 hothead, but again, I had issues with it not spawning, making that impossible. First, I added the tofu block for it to move on, then (after finding it a bit too hard to spinjump on it without jumping on the tofu block) adding a second one, then opted to just end the koopa generator rather than continue it (while keeping the setup I ended up with, as I liked it better).

Fourth setup was originally a vine in a block you had to hit to go over a wall, but for reasons I can't remember, I changed it to the eater block thingy (probably spawning issues stemming from keeping the koopa generator going).

Ending is that way because it was the most graceful/least janky way to make that text box appear. Use "Display Message Box", and it would either not fire or fire way too early (necessitating a long gap between the final obstacle and the goal tape), while the message block sprite wouldn't spawn for some reason. I had plans to replace the Yellow Switch Palace with a thank you level, but then just decided to use a switch palace on a separate sublevel for the end instead.

So yeah, gag level end up being a serious entry. All in All, I like what I ended up with for my level. Hopefully this isn't the last time I make something in SMW.

Also, for music, Starry Skies, and the MariAri2 song were grabbed from SMWC, the other three were MIDIs I had laying around that I attempted to port using tinymm. The JJ & Jeff song sounds pretty decent and close to the original, (here's the midi somene made), while the pickle wars song port is pretty garbage. Here's the Touhou midi if anyone wants it.
Mata Hari wrote:That's a lot of things disappearing in SAJ's level, dang.

Also Sweet-Tooth Harbour is a great concept that raocow pulled out of his arse while rambling, good job man
Yeah, real unfortunate. There a few ideas I actually had (such as spinjumping on a big boo) that weren't doable due to sprite limitations Oh well. Next time I'll just have to remember to use the SA-1 patch.

EDIT: Also, raocow, it's Super CD-Rom2, not "Super 2 CD-Rom".
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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby nathanisbored » 3 years ago

the coins not spawning is a side effect of how the game tries to keep track of which coins you've collected (what LM calls Item Memory). If you collected a coin at the same x-position on the same screen and subscreen in a different sublevel, it will think you collected them in that room too. there are other things that trigger the flags as well, such as 1-up blocks, and there is one flag per column of tiles per screen and subscreen. If you want to disable item memory, set it to index 3 (no track).

as for sprite limit, you can change the sprite memory header index to 00 or 10, both of which allow a maximum of 10 sprites instead of 7 or whatever it was in the level. this sometimes comes at the expense of some graphical glitches, depending on what sprites you have in the level, but I don't think it would have affected anything here

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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby SAJewers » 3 years ago

Yeah, I had forgot to look into that, otherwise I probably would've done that.
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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby Zephyr_DragonLord » 3 years ago

These graphic changes make me envious...

SKYLIGHT FLYING is a solid reimagination of a Demo journey. There are some pretty creative assets going on here, such as the manual block snake, and it all adds up to a really solid level.

Hill Top Harbor is also great. The scenery really looks alive, and the metal in there really accentuates this feeling. There's also a variety of platforms to prevent the action from getting stale...
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Re: MaGL 3 results: those poor fish

Postby FrozenQuills » 3 years ago

My relatively low score for SAJewers level is mostly in part that the level is kinda slow paced. Like I wanted to get to the next set of obstacles quickly since everything else was mostly just being able to dodge things on a platform. I did enjoy how those obstacles were designed though.

Hill Top Harbor is a great level; a safe one, but an interesting one that is excellent at immersing the player due to its incredible aesthetics. I also liked how open and nonlinear it is. My main issue with it though is that I felt like the obstacles could have more fun/interesting setups.

Also, I think there's one more angrycow level coming later which will be interesting to see. And I'm actually the lowest scorer for it this time :P
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