MaGL 3 results: moral of the story: laziness always prevails

ft029 · Post by **ft029** » 7 years ago

To be fair, not that many people know that kicking the goomba resets its timer. See pretty much every single playthrough of Miscellaneous Monument

I didn't even understand that 2 always lead to the right path. I found that first message box really unclear. Well, oops. I still like it better on 200% speed though.

Ryrir's level was indeed for JUMP1/2, as a multiperson room. The spike setups were originally even more precise, the message box explaining that final goomba setup wasn't there, and the second half didn't exist. I still really like the ideas of the first half. I didn't find the second half to be too awful, although Mario changing his flight direction from the net was frustrating. Also, all that flight before getting to the slow net section was a bit tiring after a while.

nothobz · Post by **nothobz** » 7 years ago

Leet wrote:is that not what happens every time you die in video games?

there are two different ways to structure a level, in segments and as a whole experience (idk how else to explain it, but just a generic platforming level). In a segmented level, when you force the player to start every segment over because they messed up in a later segment, yeah it feels like a slap in the face because it does feel like doing things correctly up to that point was all for nothing. Imagine doing a puzzle, and every time you put a puzzle piece in the wrong spot you have to start over again (think smaller scale though.. not a 1000 piece puzzle set just like, 25 or so). It's not like it'll require much thought or effort to get back to where you were, as long as you remember what to do, but yeah it's annoying.
On the inverse, this kind of start over process is a lot more forgiving in a more straight-forward platformer because the entire level is designed to flow naturally and offers that kind of momentum needed to let getting back to where you were stay interesting. Once you have a feel for the landscape you can blast through it, maybe finding some sort of new shortcut or trick each time you do it. The specific design choices and overall stop and start nature of your level didn't offer this kind of flow because you'd still have to wait for your tap-taps to line up each time, which breaks overall flow when you're getting impatient.

..
I really liked Spyikes! The second half was too unforgiving for my tastes (especially considering as players we dont have an idea of what flying arcs will and wont work the first time around, so as we saw it's basically a crapshoot whether or not you can make it). It probably wasn't necessary for this level though (i will say it was almost worth it for that goomba 1-up thing).
The first half was so incredibly well designed. It gives off the impression of being much harder than it actually is, which provides a very satisfying experience for the player as they blast through it. I also really loved the vine eating the door, as it's a clear indicator that you no longer need a reset door as you completed the section. very minor, but very effective. Great job! :)

S.N.N. · Post by **S.N.N.** » 7 years ago

JUDGES' COMMENTS FOR 56th (2) AND 54th (1)

56th: King of GETS:

54th: Ryrir

ft029 · Post by **ft029** » 7 years ago

"Fun: 0/30
Difficulty: 5/5 "

what??

Post by **raocow** » 7 years ago

haha, yeah 5/5 implies the difficulty is 'just right'

Post by **snoruntpyro** » 7 years ago

So uuuh, fun fact about my judging...I rated difficulty based on how difficult the level was, straight-up. I only realized I did it wrong after I had already finished judging and it was too late. It doesn't really like super matter anyways, none of my scores really relied on the difficulty score and it would have really only changed a small fraction of my scores by like 1 or 2 points. I probably would have given most levels a 3 in difficulty had I judged it right. But yeah, that was just a dumb mistake in my judging and I fully admit I did a stupid.

im not very bright ok ;-;

I blame kaizo contest tbh

Post by **FrozenQuills** » 7 years ago

I tend to give a 4/5 in difficulty if its consistent (and man, Ryrir's was difficult all the way through), and a 5/5 if it actually gets more interesting/challenging.
Anything lower means I found a problem with the curve.

Divemissile · Post by **Divemissile** » 7 years ago

the cirno level's flavor kinda confuses me. it seemed like a kinda boring ice sea level but with random touhou stuff added?? i dont get it (also you can bounce off the glass blocks and it does nothing with that im angry)

spyikes started off amazing but like a lotta people said the 2nd half kills it and feels really tacked on (which it was apparently). love the kirby music though!

nathanisbored · Post by **nathanisbored** » 7 years ago

I'm surprised how many people have mentioned having trouble with the gray platform. I didn't mention it in my post because it actually has nothing to do with flight mechanics, and it's not a glitch. Its just a matter of retaining p-meter. I knew most people don't have a deep understanding of how pmeter works, but most people have a good sense of it when playing (since its not displayed on screen like in smb3, it's something you kinda just get a feel for).

What I thought most people knew about was that you can recharge p meter during a sprint jump by holding forward long enough, even in the air. This happens all the time even when not flying, like if you do a left-right wiggle in the middle of your sprint jump, and notice Mario will kinda delay a bit before he starts fully accelerating again. The way it technically works is that typically p meter only charges while running across the ground in one direction, and slowly drains otherwise. But if you do a sprint jump (meaning jump while p meter is full), it sets a flag that enables the p meter to charge while in midair for that jump. Most people don't have a concrete understanding of this, but have a feel for it (it's obvious when you think about jumping at full speed not slowing you down).

So the part with the gray platform in SPYIKES, since you are required to sprint jump to spin fly with the cape, you will be able to charge p meter while in the air during that fall. So ideally you'd want to get as far left as possible and then swing right toward the platform, to maximize time spent moving in one direction so that the p meter will be fully recharged by the time you jump off the gray platform. Also you probably want to drop quickly instead of glide down, to minimize the time the p meter spends draining while you're not moving horizontally. Alternatively, you could probably glide down and swing back and forth more than once but each swing may result in a net loss of p charge rather than gain unless you swing really close to either side, which is a bit risky. The point is that it's really not that precise , but I guess I take for granted that subtle physics like that are common knowledge since I play a lot of kaizo hacks of that nature.

nothobz · Post by **nothobz** » 7 years ago

i disagree with the idea that the second section felt tacked on. I think it was a very natural progression of the first half (the same thematic design choices, but more difficult and on a much larger scale). I appreciate that the first half felt so claustrophobic while the second half had a lot more free space surrounding the player, I think it worked very well. Evolving from focus on jumping to flying also felt like a very natural expansion of the core idea. I think it might have tried to do too much, and a lot more leniency in the flying itself would've gone a long way, but it certainly didn't feel like two completely different levels like some people have implied.
it might feel that way because of the hub world separating the two sections.

King of GETs · Post by **King of GETs** » 7 years ago

So, my level was played on the (9)th of November (9/11 in some date formats), was basically 55th place, and all my final level scores were divisible by 5. That's some pretty neat numerology.

After my experimental submission to MaGL X2 and my fast-pace submission with CC12, I decided to do a slower-paced level to see how it would turn out. It was my first (and maybe my last) time using Lunar Magic, so I was pretty much experimenting during the first half of the time before the submission was due. There was originally going to be a gimmick where the player was Cirno and she floated around the maze during a fairy, but that required editing that was beyond my knowledge, so I just left it as Mario, put it as a water level, and changed the text boxes a little bit. Working with Lunar Magic feels so clunky and restricting compared to SMBX, and without decent knowledge of how to insert custom graphics, mechanics, and even special scripts, you can't really do anything "fresh" as it has all been done ad naseum. I'm really glad I figured out how to insert custom music, as I think the music was probably the best part of the level.

I've got many ideas of how my submission to MaGL X3 is going to go, but after seeing what works, what doesn't, who wins, who loses, etc., the most important part seems to be not how creative or different a level is but how FUN it ends up being TO THE PEOPLE PLAYING IT, NOT how fun YOU find it to be. Tailoring a level a specific way to the specific userbase who ends up playing your level is the best way to give it a good chance at getting a high score. This is pretty much obvious, but it doesn't really "click" until you've been in a few contests, understand the userbase, and try to mesh your own mental capabilities and play styles with their own.

Considering my level in CC12 "gave people seizures from so much stuff going on" and "was insanely difficult" and my level here "was so easy and slow-paced it put people to sleep," if I can find a good balance between the two, I'll be good to go.

FrozenQuills wrote:Also raocow missed a secret exit in King of GETs' level. It was alright in terms of exploration but it's pretty bare.

Didn't you say S.N.N. would tell raocow when there were secret exits? That's why I left the overworld alone. Unless raocow is choosing to skip secret exits, which is fine.

Pyro wrote:Hey hey hey it's my TWO least favourite levels! I was expecting just King of GETs this video but oops! rao forgot to get the secret exit. Y'know, the thing that quintiples your playtime and is the major reason why it's my least favourite. The entire level is slow, boring, and not fun at all. It's a chore to play because it's so slow, empty, boring, and completely devoid of anything remotely interesting or anything resembling a gameplay gimmick. Unless you count the 'two' thing but considering a message box spells it out for you it becomes pointless. It's basically the opposite of fun so that's why it's my least fav.

After remembering playing through your bad ice level submission, your criticisms of my level make me more confused than angry to be quite honest.

ft029 wrote:I didn't even understand that 2 always lead to the right path. I found that first message box really unclear.

..........

Divemissile wrote:the cirno level's flavor kinda confuses me. it seemed like a kinda boring ice sea level but with random touhou stuff added?? i dont get it (also you can bounce off the glass blocks and it does nothing with that im angry)

Yeah, I wish I had done more with the glass block, but I didn't want to put it with a million things. Apparently, just the "2 > 3" gimmick overloaded some individual's brains and made them spend a half an hour on something that should have taken maybe 3 or 4 minutes.

Post by **FrozenQuills** » 7 years ago

raocow probably forgot.

King of GETs wrote: After remembering playing through your bad ice level submission, your criticisms of my level make me more confused than angry to be quite honest.

This is pretty uncalled for, considering no one has even seen the level yet, and she's one of the judges.

S.N.N. · Post by **S.N.N.** » 7 years ago

Re: the secret exit: yeah, I sent the list, so it was probably just missed

King of GETs · Post by **King of GETs** » 7 years ago

FrozenQuills wrote:raocow probably forgot.
King of GETs wrote: After remembering playing through your bad ice level submission, your criticisms of my level make me more confused than angry to be quite honest.
This is pretty uncalled for, considering no one has even seen the level yet, and she's one of the judges.

Sorry, I should have saved my opinion until the video was showcased properly.

I should learn to take someone calling my level their "least favorite" and "slow, boring, and not fun at all" in stride.

S.N.N. wrote:Re: the secret exit: yeah, I sent the list, so it was probably just missed

Oh, okay.

Post by **snoruntpyro** » 7 years ago

I've thought about it and I'd like to apologize for how hostile I've been with some of these level comments and stuff. I didn't really think about it when I was judging the levels because I was just so angry/disappointed after playing some of them but now I'm reflecting and I was reeally too harsh and did not use some very nice wording on these. I sincerely apologize and I'll tone down these posts, though some of the remaining comments are probably still gonna be harsh because they're in the past.

ft029 · Post by **ft029** » 7 years ago

King of GETs wrote:After remembering playing through your bad ice level submission, your criticisms of my level make me more confused than angry to be quite honest.

:o Pyro's judge comments were meh, but her level was definitely pretty good.

Also, yeah, I didn't understand the first message box about following 2, nor did I find those reverse ice blocks. My observation skills are really awful, I know.

@nothobz I agree that the second half is kind of a progression. It's still annoying how slow the net section can be, though.

TaviTurnip · Post by **TaviTurnip** » 7 years ago

I actually thought the message boxes set the perfect instructions up for the level. Everything was very easy to understand.

Arctangent · Post by **Arctangent** » 7 years ago

nothobz wrote:i disagree with the idea that the second section felt tacked on. I think it was a very natural progression of the first half (the same thematic design choices, but more difficult and on a much larger scale)

I have no idea how pretty precise flying sections that have no other gimmick to them is in any way a natural progression or in the same thematic space as indirectly triggering vine blocks.

leod · Post by **leod** » 7 years ago

That "2" level oh me oh my talk about gimmick with nothing else oh boy.
If the level at least had interesting parts to it then it'd be alright but it doesn't!

Sharenite · Post by **SAJewers** » 7 years ago

Someone needs to make a "dead at the end" montage for this hack after the LP is over

nothobz · Post by **nothobz** » 7 years ago

Arctangent wrote:I have no idea how pretty precise flying sections that have no other gimmick to them is in any way a natural progression or in the same thematic space as indirectly triggering vine blocks.

.5)if you really "have no idea" then I think you're just being petty. or looking to argue.

1) the flying was not particularly precise. While it could've given more leniency at times, there's still a lot of room for error and supports various player abilities (keep in mind that raocow was not aware you can stop your vertical ascent during takeoff by releasing the B button, if he did both sections would've been substantially easier).
2) what kind of gimmick were you expecting a flying section to have? as we've already discussed flying sections are finnicky enough without layering even more stuff on top of it. I think that for what it was it still did more with the flying mechanics than most people would think to (maintaining momentum coming out of a spin jump and the nets).
3) "thematically" was referring to the actual level's theme and overall design, not the gameplay. Yeah, no duh the flying section wasn't built around triggering vine blocks (but it's not like the concept was dropped entirely, as it was required for the last obstacle of the level as a nice callback of sorts). That would've been stupid. A level's gameplay is allowed to change and evolve to keep things interesting. Unless you're saying levels are only allowed to be defined by 1 thing.
I was acknowledging that both sections were clearly connected through their visuals and aesthetics. They took place in the same spiky skewery castle. As I said, I personally think the midway point should've been inside the fortress, because the hub world created a distinct divide between the two sections. If the entire level took place within the spiky fortress I think the eventual opening up of the otherwise claustrophobic areas and the flying would've been a lot more satisfying.

Arctangent · Post by **Arctangent** » 7 years ago

Let me point on the word you used there:

"Evolve."

Now let's consider the fact that we're not talking about Pokemon or Digimon or the like, we're talking about the general use of evolve. When you look at evolution under that lens, it's a very, very gradual force, with very strong connections between near points. If you track a species of bird down its evolutionary lineage, you'll see very small but distinct changes over its entire course - until you've reached the point where you're looking at some thing that is barely even an animal, but never at any point would it have felt tenuous to connect two points.

Now, let's look at the level: its gameplay does evolve.

... In the first part.

In the first part, the challenge of triggering the vine box is different every time, but it still focuses on causing a Koopa to knock a knockable object into the box. Some of these can be salvaged by making the shell move yourself but it's pretty blatant that you're intended to use the Koopas. Between each of these, though, you have to hop around precarious spikes and this mostly just comes across as a way to shove challenge into every nook 'n cranny into the level for some reason but then comes the final challenge - where you have to retrieve the knockable from a bunch of precarious spike hops and the precarious spike hop over to the Koopa, uniting the two types of challenges pretty dang elegantly ... even if there are some issues with sometimes killing the Koopa with how much time the knockable remains a hurtbox for it.

Then we're suddenly playing Pokemon and the level finds a Pretty Wing and suddenly "evolves" into an entirely different beast with some sort of connections to the last but it really doesn't feel natural in any way

which is kind of the point in Digimon because everything there is pretty unnatural in the first place but we're not talking about Yo-kai Watch we're talking about level design and suddenly tossing the player into what is essentially another level in the same area is generally considered a no-go unless you're actually trying to do that, and thus do things to actually transition the player into the fact that they're suddenly going to be doing something entirely unrelated to what they're going to be doing and in fact everything they were actually doing previously is now entirely irrelevant they can just forget about all that

which this level doesn't do

it doesn't even wind-up the player for its flying section it just tosses a bunch of random unconnected challenges at the player that are only kinda related in that they use flying mechanics but they all use different flying mechanics so uh

also the "oh but it uses the same setting" excuse is pretty dang flimsy I mean you can have a platformer and go through a magical space warp door that platformers are so fond of and end up in a tetris clone that then sends you to a fps once you get a certain score and never once would you have to leave the flowery field to do any of that

plus it's far easier and makes far more sense to change settings dramatically than gameplay because, y'know

you can enter and exit buildings and caves and stuff and end up in somewhere entirely thematically different yet still have continuity in the setting so y'know

why the hell did i turn into egoraptor for this post

nothobz · Post by **nothobz** » 7 years ago

you're right, a game or level has the potential to dramatically shift its visual tone without losing its core focus. I knew I should've revised that part of my argument and i just didn't. (funnily enough, my original argument was backed up by an example where i tried to discredit a blunt shift in visual tone before i realized that my example would've worked fine if it had been done that way.)

I guess evolve was the wrong word to use ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm fine with the gameplay dramatically changing after the midway point because it provides a clear sense of progression. You successfully hit all the vine blocks, and you got your midway point that shows that area has been successfully checked off. If after the midway point the level continued to be about hitting vine blocks it would feel like more of the same. The feather not being alluded to until it's reveal provides it as an exciting new (unexpected) gameplay element you'll be focusing on, and it works as a nice contrast to the claustrophobic environments of the first half. I don't think that the second half of a level focusing on something new makes the first half feel irrelevant (that argument could be applied to any level with a midway point?), but I do understand the argument for it seeming like an unrelated level tacked on.

Arctangent · Post by **Arctangent** » 7 years ago

nothobz wrote:I don't think that the second half of a level focusing on something new makes the first half feel irrelevant (that argument could be applied to any level with a midway point?)

That's ... a really strange statement to make. Have you literally never seen a level with a midpoint that built on the same core concepts throughout the entirety of the level?

From what I remember, a lot of top contest levels do exactly that. And are so good because they do exactly that.

You're right about it likely feeling like more of the same, but that's mostly because it's not really a concept that lends itself to much mutation and ... honestly, would've suited a level the length of just the first half perfectly fine. You don't need to make a level long enough to justify a midpoint, and sometimes it's better off to do just that if you don't really have any way to expand a concept.

On the flipside, a midpoint is a perfect place to introduce a second element to your level that is then used in tandem with the element the level had been using beforehand - or, to take something from this level, to take two elements that were mostly separate previously but are now starting to be combined. That's the thing - I'm not arguing that the change is badly done because it's more than a single thing the level focuses on, it's that it's never used in tandem with the previous elements at all - in fact, the level flat-out abandons its previous elements once you hit the midpoint.

The contrast between the claustrophobia changing the open space through precise jumps being replaced by flight is something I feel would've been suited for a series of levels - the general theme of that could likely be done in an elegant way in a single level, but it'd be far better done using the same element that manifests differently depending on the environment. As is, though, a midpoint is not nearly as much of a break in continuity as a goal, and it's a lot more difficult to justify such a sudden change in gameplay while you're still in the same "scope" of gameplay.

nathanisbored · Post by **nathanisbored** » 7 years ago

"Make a Good Level" is a doomed concept for a fair contest from the start imo because its too vague. If the genre isnt specified, then it's impossible to properly rank a bunch of different levels with potentially conflicting design philosophies, difficulty standards, and resources. Do you call a kaizo level bad because its niche? Do you call a flying level bad because it's niche? the only way to fairly measure something like this is to take into consideration what the author was trying to do and how well they accomplished that goal. Having 3 judges doesnt solve the issue, especially if they are like-minded about level design standards (not that they are in this case, im just saying that's always a possibility). I'm not saying nothing good can come from this contest, it's cool to see all the level ideas, just don't take the scoring too seriously. the ranking order really, really doesnt mean anything

raocow's talkhaus

MaGL 3 results: moral of the story: laziness always prevails

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: tapping away at your sanity

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th

Re: MaGL 3 results: playing (9) on the 9th