Super Mario Star Road - raocow plays a 3D game (Didn't get to 64 episodes!)

[Alice]

Hey raocow, when you exit to the main menu you should try the score option. I don't know how well it's supported for hacks but for the original game it listed the courses and stars you've gotten in them.

I don't remember ever using the Mario camera when I played the original SM64; always the Lakitu. I just preferred it when the camera was further out so I could judge distances. And I really don't remember never being able to run in a straight line. It's absurd that you have to spend so much time adjusting the analogue stick controls.

I agree on the camera range but my personal experience was that the Lakitu cam was a lot more difficult to get at a 90º angle from where you actually wanted to go which made some jumps a pretty big pain in the ass unless you switched to the Mario cam.

[CM30]

Well I mean, this thread did tell him to decrease the deadzone on his controller. Reducing deadzone would remove the area around the stick for walking wouldn't it? I think the bigger issue was the Range control. If it's not there, try a deadzone of 25%. That one allows me plenty of fine control using a standard 360 controller.

Honestly I'm not even sure it's controller issues at this point. I have a feeling it's more about confidence when making jumps. Take the time to line up your camera directly behind Mario before making jumps and it'll save your life. Also using the camera to help judge how far away a platform is helps too.

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The following isn't a comment made as a result of the difficulty raocow had with this level, but instead based on my own experience playing it. Having played a number of these SM64 romhacks now, I can say that SM64 hackers don't really seem to "get" what made the bowser levels in the original fun challenges. In the original, the bowser levels were essentially pure platforming segments done in 2.5D. Think about it, most of the level took place with a zoomed out camera placed horizontally away from Mario, and much of it could be accomplished by holding left or right, with minimal up and down. Because of this, you could almost always gauge the distances on your jumps, resulting in level design that was usually not frustrating. The red coins offered a chance for the developers to have more challenging platforming along what was a more straightforward path. Basically, the levels escalated in both difficulty and complexity without ever feeling unfair. The levels also felt very fluid and you could get through them with minimal need to stop and think about your next jump for too long. And since the level was always vertical, in many cases falling would lead you back to a previous level, or in the Fire Sea, you had a chance to recover yourself with the lava jump.

While the level was unique in its "boss" fight, the platforming that it presents is really unpleasant. A lot of the jumps feel just high enough that you need to double jump for them (the tree bridges) or too far apart to safely single jump between without using the air kick or long jump (stones in the swamp). You have to constantly stop and readjust your camera because this isn't a 2.5D platforming challenge like in the original, but a full 3D one. The main path has all the difficulties that would usually be relegated to Red Coin challenges in the original and if you fall, you're going to die because you're inches above the swamp for a good 90% of the level with no safety net to fall into should you go down. And all of my platforming was done with the knowledge of air kicks, long jump control, standing double/triple jumps and more, so I was at least aware of the movement tools I had at my disposal when playing.

Mario 64 is at its best when it's an exploration game. When you introduce fine platforming challenges, much semblance of control goes out the window because the original game's engine was just not built for that stuff. I'm playing ahead a fair bit and there are just so many instances of fine platforming being required to get stars. I stepped into one level that's suspended in the sky, moved around a little, fell off, and never went back in because I can tell it's going to be a nightmare. I've already done the 2nd bowser level too. It does not get better than this one, I hate to say. Very cool aesthetic area, but man is it hard. Only way I could think of to get through a specific area was to do a long jump to a small ledge and skip it entirely. I highly doubt raocow will think to do the same.

Star Road has promise but to me it doesn't feel like it ever captures the same good balance of exploration, platforming and general enjoyment that the original did.

This is why I think Super Mario 64: Last Impact seems a lot better designed than Star Road.

I mean yes, it can get pretty hard. And there are quite a few valid complaints about the camera in the game in general.

But it's much more generous with the platforming, focuses a lot more on exploration and doesn't insta kill you for every mistake like Star Road seems to. For example, the first five courses have absolutely ZERO bottomless pits or instant kill hazards at all. They're pretty much pure exploration with a bit of gentle platforming thrown in, like in the original game.

And while it does get trickier, that seems to remain a rule. In the second overworld section, two levels are sky levels with a lot of perilous jumps, but two are very exploration focused with less of a reliance on precision platforming. In the final overworld section, the last level is stupidly fine platforming focused (like the Mario Kart level it's based on), but again, there's one level with no precision platforming, one which is only about 25% platforming (the casino) and another with also quite limited precision platforming.

Add how linear the 'Bowser' levels are, and I think it's a lot closer to the original Mario 64 than Star Road and benefits greatly from that. Seems like it might be more raocow's forte.

Hey raocow, when you exit to the main menu you should try the score option. I don't know how well it's supported for hacks but for the original game it listed the courses and stars you've gotten in them.

I don't remember ever using the Mario camera when I played the original SM64; always the Lakitu. I just preferred it when the camera was further out so I could judge distances. And I really don't remember never being able to run in a straight line. It's absurd that you have to spend so much time adjusting the analogue stick controls.

I agree on the camera range but my personal experience was that the Lakitu cam was a lot more difficult to get at a 90º angle from where you actually wanted to go which made some jumps a pretty big pain in the ass unless you switched to the Mario cam.

The score option seems to be decently supported with Mario 64 hacks. Should be fine here.

[Sebby19]

I wonder what was down that path after the Star in the Bowser level?

[FPzero]

It's just a return trip to the main path.

[StevenThePotato]

Oh man I love this LP. I feel bad for laughing at raocow's misery but him being worried about the log turning when you walk on it, but then not even getting a chance to find out because he fell in the sand instantly, just made my day.

[CM30]

I get the impression raocow isn't quite cut out for this 3D platforming lark. He's doing better than I thought he'd do, but even then, it's about 10 deaths per video minimum, simply because he can't seem to walk in a straight line in a 3D Mario game.

I do hope he continues (since Star Road seems to get much more interesting near the endgame with the more unique levels), but I worry that he has no chance in hell of completing Mad Musical Mess or Colossal Candy Clutter or whatever else without having a breakdown in the process. 100% completion just doesn't seem like it's happening here, since the very last 'secret' level would make that 'Enter the Machine' style A2MT level look reasonable by comparison.

It just makes me worry he won't enjoy the rest of the game at all, and we'll get a few hundred videos where raocow spends hours messing up the simplest jumps in the later levels.

Super Mario 64: Last Impact could be a better choice (cause worlds 1-5 have no bottomless pits or instant kill hazards), but I worry that too would just get too much for him in the later parts of the game. If you can't navigate a 3D space properly, then Rainbow Road in that game will just destroy you.

Honestly, it just leaves me conflicted. I want raocow to continue and conquer this game, but I worry he simply lacks the specific skills and motivation needed to make this anything more than an endless slog.

[Mata Hari]

He would've been better off playing actual Super Mario 64 but well we've all seen that a million times before so

Actually it'd probably be quite fun to see him play Super Mario Galaxy but I'm not sure how possible that is because waggle.

[CM30]

He would've been better off playing actual Super Mario 64 but well we've all seen that a million times before so

Actually it'd probably be quite fun to see him play Super Mario Galaxy but I'm not sure how possible that is because waggle.

You can definitely emulate Mario Galaxy, and I think you can remap a lot of motion controls to traditional ones in emulated Wii games.




Or you can play it on a normal Wii and record it via a capture card. It's not like Wii systems are expensive nowaday (and even the Wii Mini might work for this one).

That said, I do worry that Galaxy 1 and 2 would be pretty brutal on raocow as well. Not the normal levels, but I don't think he'd have a lot of fun with the Manta Ray Surfing/Ball Rolling/Fluzzard/Bubble Blowing/whatever gimmick levels and the later levels/secret levels would potentially kill him as much as Star Road has.

[Money]

That's some thick dramatic irony there in the beginning.

Also tho the video in general made me :(, I wanna applaud that episode title. It's fuckin great.

[FrozenQuills]

Regarding spatial relationship issues:
Usually I move the camera around just to see where the platforms are and how far they are away from me. Then I try to keep mario straight by moving the camera behind mario in order to actually do the jump.

Regarding spooky ghost world is the new standard for the next tier:
It isn't. It REALLY isn't. There are two or three worlds in the next tier that are not nearly as hard, one being sorta difficult but not too bad, and one pretty much being worse and is pretty insane for you.

Regarding not having fun:
I highly suggest not fully completing every world that gives your ire, and not trying to 100% this. You can have fun just completing the game without getting all the stars, as not every world will have a bottomless death pit.
There's also nothing wrong with resorting to savestates in order to have fun with this hack, as many others have done so.

[Mandew]

raocow sure seems to blame himself a lot, but I do earnestly believe that this game isn't too sensitive to what the player may experience at times.

The thing is, of all reasons to be failing jumps, lack of depth perception is one that you wouldn't even expect. It's an obstacle that sticks out like a sore thumb. I spent like 2 hours trying to make it to that star on my playthrough, just repeatedly dying as I tried to figure out where platforms were in space-time. All the while being discomforted by how awkward it was. And this issue has a bunch of easy fixes that could be thought of - like putting some safety land below the whole obstacle course that would not only forgive you for failing, albeit making you take some damage, but also give you something to work off of, something to put relative to to judge depth perception.

The fact that such easy fixes exist kind of makes me think that the player's experience isn't a significant part of the reasons and thoughtfulness behind design here.

[Money]

The designers of SM64 knew the engine's limitations, and knew that if they were gonna have the player doing active platforming, they'd better either a) have the platforms be large enough to comfortably land on, b) have the platforms set up in a linear, 2D like manner, c) have the consequences of failure not be death, or d) a combination of the above.

This game... does not.

[Crow]

i just don't understand why raocow continues to play this when it's clear from the videos that he's not enjoying it very much at all.

i don't know what more i can say at this point

[raocow]

so, spoiler, tomorrow's video I go and explore a bunch of 'tier 2' worlds and I'm having a ton of fun again.

it's just really specific levels asking for specific things that ruin the fun a little :/

[TaviTurnip]

i just don't understand why raocow continues to play this when it's clear from the videos that he's not enjoying it very much at all.

i don't know what more i can say at this point

That's not clear at all, sooooo. Please take off your zoom lens :/

raocow is playing it because he wants to experience it and, presumably, do his best to see how far he can go. I'm not going to speak for him, obviously. Maybe it will open the door to new games in the future. Giving up at the first (second, third, fourth) sign of trouble is not the way to go >_> Maybe if we had a streak of Episode 0s, which we haven't. There aren't any Episode 0s. There's just hard times. Maybe in two weeks it's going to get much worse and he will give up, but there's no reason to do that right now. I'm pretty sure comments like this are as much "I wish raocow would stop playing this for MY sake so I don't have to watch videos I don't enjoy" which believe because of how many people here stop watching LPs the moment rao stubs his toe on a random rock somewhere :x

Watching someone's experiences is a lot more than just watching them bounce around happily. That's why books, television, games, anime have ups and downs for the protagonist. Sometimes the downs are just worse than others. But in anime it's "omg this gave me the feels when i watched it qq ;;" rather than "omg why doesn't he just STOP if he's having a bad time >:(" and that is very silly.

I woke up in a very rambly mood today. No regrets.

[Sebby19]

I think others have said this before, but holding Z throughout the entire Long Jump will make Mario stay in place when landing. REMEMBER!

And spinning the camera all the way around, even switching to Lakitu cam to get a new perspective, would have helped a lot. REMEMBER!

[Voltgloss]

I have never played Super Mario 64, so please forgive me if this question has an obvious answer: When dealing with platform jumping where depth perception is an issue, is there some way to make the camera show more of a bird's-eye view? I had the same problem raocow had in today's video about being able to judge distance/height/size for the spinning platforms - and my immediate gut response would be to try to fix the problem by moving the camera to get a more aerial view of the terrain. Is that the "Lakitu Cam" folks talk about? Or is that option just not available in this engine?

[Xirix]

Depth perception can indeed be a thing in Mario 64, but that's why the camera has different modes and can spin around, so you can better judge the distance.

But yeah going to other courses and then just occasionally returning to get one or two stars in this one might be the better option, rather than smacking your face against the ghost house over and over, can't wait for tomorrow, I've forgotten a lot about the second area's layout.

[nathanisbored]

If you're using a controller that has notches, you shouldn't have the issue of not going straight when you hold forward. Just make sure you're pressing the control stick all the way forward into the notch. When you are facing the edge of a platform and want to move backward without having to turn around, double jump in place and then kick and hold back during the kick. It works pretty well. I think I had the same issue with depth perception for that star as you did, so I don't blame you for that (it didn't give me nearly as much trouble, but it's still not well designed).

[QubicTom]

Mamma mia!

[idol]

hey raocow, when you start magl maybe you should play through the original sm64 on the side? like, unrecorded, just to keep practicing how to move around and stuff so when you start this up again you won't need to relearn everything (and you might be a lot better, actually)

or something! practice!

[SAJewers]

Could do that for pat-a-pon videos, or streams

[SuperCuccoSaiyan]

raocow, I think that it's about time that you start putting your priorities together here. Using midpoints is not a sin, so go ahead and use some already. Trying not to "cheat" is a fair point that I usually respect, but in this case, it's holding you back for no valid reasons. It'll save you a lot of pointless trouble.

Also, don't stick to the same levels for too long. If you start bashing your head against a wall, then chances are that you should either switch level and go back later or downright skip said level. Keeping anger at check gives you a better rational judgment.

It doesn't matter whether you finish the game at 100% or not. The goal should be to at least defeat the Final Boss, as any video games ask you to. Honestly, I feel like trying to collect all the stars in this mess of a hack isn't worth it, considering how awful the level designs have been thus far.

Just think a bit about what what you want to do. We'll accept whatever decision you end up choosing.

[RedMageSusie]

"OOOOWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" - Mario 2016

[ztarwuff]

I just remembered something. raocow kept saying that lives were useful in SM64. But they're not useless in Star Road, are they? Lives stop you from having to go to the negative world, which can really break up the gameplay pace.