SMWCX - Credits

[strongbadman]

Ah, I believe it's actually a full level that's being omitted rather than just a cutscene. I don't think majority of these complaints would've happened if it was a cutscene or that this was announced far earlier on. I still give props for raocow, I just would've loved to know his opinion of the final level nonetheless. There's my opinion. *shrugs*

It's not. However, it's structured to look like final/boss level, hence the discontentment and concern. It's literally just a cutscene - but that's a spoiler, because it being mistakable for a level is quite deliberate, which has mixed very negatively with the request to conceal it.
Personally I disapprove of both requests for concealment - the one for the passwords and the one for the finale - but I don't begrudge Imnbh4l's intent.
This resentment has built up from the weakness of the main final level, some questionable decisions throughout, and now a multi-part stage with an incredibly awkward/tiresome password gimmick (it seems like a good idea now, but realise you need to place all five objects every time you die) that really could've been three separate levels with their own beginnings and endings - AND the impositions on raocow's LP. It's a "final straw".

The password request is kind of weird, since if someone really didn;t wanna bother with the level, they could just cheat anyway. SMBX has an invincibility AND an infinite flying cheat.

[Sebby19]

Wow, I've never seen so many users here hate something all at the same time.

I have no opinion on the matter.

[Duker]

The way I see it... someone IS going to upload the finale, that inevitable after this spectacle, and so rao might as well be the one to do it so as to not alienate everyone that followed the LP all the way through.

BTW I don't get the occasional hate for wanting to hide the passwords in the level, that makes kind of sense to me.

[Leet]

Man, I do not get the amount of vitriol this whole thing about the finale has stirred up. Especially if it's just a cutscene and not even a proper level. It's not like there is any real story that is left hanging by not seeing it, or like this is something the game has built up to or hinted at all this time. It's just a secret bonus we didn't even know existed until today's video. I can see being disappointed to find out there is something at the end and not seeing it, but the overall reaction just seems so ridiculously out of proportion for something that is relatively benign.

I'm pretty sure the answer to "who put the power stars in the paintings???" is in The Finale though, it seems like the "true ending" to the game. I don't see it being revealed in the level he's playing right now, anyway.

But people still overreact, I agree. In the end, talkhaus is still Gamers, to which videogames is serious business. I just can't make myself worked up over this when we're all either just going to open it in the editor or watch an upload anyway - anyone who doesn't just doesn't care, in which case they wouldn't be mad. I mean, Touhou has the exact same "don't upload the endings" rule, but I've never seen anyone on here who cared.

[Plutia]

Wow, I've never seen so many users here hate something all at the same time.

I have no opinion on the matter.

are you forgetting soldexus

[Alice]

I mean, Touhou has the exact same "don't upload the endings" rule, but I've never seen anyone on here who cared.

When exactly was the last time raocow lped a Touhou game? Oh right, he hasn't.

[Leet]

I mean, Touhou has the exact same "don't upload the endings" rule, but I've never seen anyone on here who cared.

When exactly was the last time raocow lped a Touhou game? Oh right, he hasn't.

wtf are you "gotcha!"ing me, just because raocow himself didn't lp an official touhou game doesn't mean the rule isn't in effect for everyone else in the world too. also that is like the least important thing i said

people are very upset with this smwcx request on principle... talking about what it implies and creator arrogance or whatever... they're mad because they were watching an lp of it, but that's not what they're saying. it's not an argument about disappointment, it's an argument about how this is Videogame Crime... or whatever

i am out of touch with the youth

[Sebby19]

Wow, I've never seen so many users here hate something all at the same time.

I have no opinion on the matter.

are you forgetting soldexus

I was expecting that. I remember only maybe 3 people actively hating that in the old topic. Here I'm counting 10+

[Alice]

wtf are you "gotcha!"ing me, just because raocow himself didn't lp an official touhou game doesn't mean the rule isn't in effect for everyone else in the world too. also that is like the least important thing i said

people are very upset with this smwcx request on principle... talking about what it implies and creator arrogance or whatever... they're mad because they were watching an lp of it, but that's not what they're saying. it's not an argument about disappointment, it's an argument about how this is Videogame Crime... or whatever

i am out of touch with the youth

I think you're completely missing the point I was trying to make. The point is that the Touhou comparison isn't relevant here. I'd never even heard of that rule before now. Now that I have heard of it I think it's stupid, just like the one with SMWCX. You can't directly compare them since there is no guarantee that raocow's fanbase even knows about it and you can't then use that lack of complaint as justification that criticism of Imaynotbehere4long's is invalid like it seemed like you were trying to do for the same reasons.

I was expecting that. I remember only maybe 3 people actively hating that in the old topic. Here I'm counting 10+

People rather consistently shat all over Soldexus for being so awful throughout most of the thread. There were just more people trying to be optimistic thinking it would improve eventually when it didn't.

[Ometeotl]

It reminds me of when Toby Fox went screaming to youtubers playing Undertale demanding that they make some commentary in their videos telling people to play the game themselves before watching the video.

[Leet]

about soldexus, a lot of people didn't mind that it was bad and preferred to laugh at it/go along for the ride. well, i did that at least. i kind of wish people would do that more often!

I think you're completely missing the point I was trying to make. The point is that the Touhou comparison isn't relevant here. I'd never even heard of that rule before now. Now that I have heard of it I think it's stupid, just like the one with SMWCX. You can't directly compare them since there is no guarantee that raocow's fanbase even knows about it

i assumed that a lot of raocow's fanbase would know about it because there are a lot of touhou fans here because raocow has played a lot of touhou fangames, and it seems to me that it is fairly well known among touhou fans

and you can't then use that lack of complaint as justification that criticism of Imaynotbehere4long's is invalid like it seemed like you were trying to do for the same reasons.

do you need to take a rest

[LunarNeedle]

Ah, I believe it's actually a full level that's being omitted rather than just a cutscene. I don't think majority of these complaints would've happened if it was a cutscene or that this was announced far earlier on. I still give props for raocow, I just would've loved to know his opinion of the final level nonetheless. There's my opinion. *shrugs*

It's not. However, it's structured to look like final/boss level, hence the discontentment and concern. It's literally just a cutscene - but that's a spoiler, because it being mistakable for a level is quite deliberate, which has mixed very negatively with the request to conceal it.
Personally I disapprove of both requests for concealment - the one for the passwords and the one for the finale - but I don't begrudge Imnbh4l's intent.
This resentment has built up from the weakness of the main final level, some questionable decisions throughout, and now a multi-part stage with an incredibly awkward/tiresome password gimmick (it seems like a good idea now, but realise you need to place all five objects every time you die) that really could've been three separate levels with their own beginnings and endings - AND the impositions on raocow's LP. It's a "final straw".

Oh wow, thanks for the context. In hindsight, not missing out on a cutscene isn't too much of a concern, but I got mixed messages from the comments and I didn't really understand. I do agree though that it's implications on the LP really were too much for most people. Thanks though!

[Arctangent]

stuff

This was one of my main issues with it, too, although it ended up being rolled up into the non-specific "aren't planning on playing the game" comment.

Seriously, some people follow LPs because they're just not able to play the games and want to experience them. It doesn't just have to be because of an injury - one of my friends has a condition where, in her normal state, she's exhausted beyond a normal person who hasn't gotten sleep in several days. Even if it wasn't for that meaning that she can't really play games that require her to exert a lot of energy, she still wouldn't really have the finances to play everything she would want to play - sure, that one's not relevant to this case exactly, but it's still a real issue.

And in my case, I'm terrible at sticking to games with significant length, not to mention I just enjoy games more with others - Undertale would not have had the impact it had on me if I actually played it, despite what people would normally say. It was Cry's personality and commentary style that made the game so much more when my first experience was his first experience that he shared with so many other people. And, honestly, LPs have been a huge part of my life, ever since someone linked that old Something Awful LP of Daikatana which led to me discovering the whole genre. My inspirations on how I write casual, what kind of quality I expect, and what my kind of humor is have been heavily influence by people recording videos or uploading screenshots with commentary. And even to this day, I find myself at awe at what LPers can draw out of people who follow them, because the ceiling of what they can do is always rising.

I find it to be really bad taste to restrict something from appearing from an LP, because that's denying an LPer's ability to make it more than it would be on its own. I can't tell you how many times where I've felt that certain kind of sadness when an LP ends that honestly a lot of games don't seem to have on their own. And, honestly, nothing's sadder than finding a LPer you love only to realize that there's nothing more they've done, as well as the overwhelming jubilation when you see them starting something new.

... And, to be honest, I'm someone who hurts a lot from the struggle to meaningfully close to distance between myself and people I admire. And it's no coincidence that a lot of those people are LPers or do similar game-related stuff.

[Mikkofier]

It reminds me of when Toby Fox went screaming to youtubers playing Undertale demanding that they make some commentary in their videos telling people to play the game themselves before watching the video.

That's a lot better way of doing things than "do not show the ending of this video game to your viewers, for they are Not Worthy!"

[SAJewers]

To add to Horikawa's point, there have definitely been games for me that I've enjoyed watching someone else play (either via LP or twitch stream), knowing that I wouldn't have that same enjoyment had I played it myself.

Also, I can't remember the name of the game, but I do remember there was a game that the dev asked LPers and Streamers to stop after a certain point because they didn't want the puzzles spoiled for others, and everyone that was stupid too.

[Money]

It reminds me of when Toby Fox went screaming to youtubers playing Undertale demanding that they make some commentary in their videos telling people to play the game themselves before watching the video.

That's a lot better way of doing things than "do not show the ending of this video game to your viewers, for they are Not Worthy!"

yeah like, at least undertale is a game built specifically upon player expectations and "blind runs", so wanting people to know "you'll get the best experience if you play the game before watching it" isn't too ridiculous of a request. This, though, just feels spiteful towards people who dont wanna/can't play the game (as does the request for people to edit out the passwords towards people who [imo, understandably] just wanna be done with the level)

speaking of the level, it continues to look unfun but at least today's rooms were brief, though im pretty sure "relief that they dont have to play more" isn't exactly on the checklist for "emotions level designers should seek to impart on players." (though due to the password system i can only imagine the emotions raocow'd express if he only died a few more times)

[tirakai]

The talk about accessibility and such reminds of Chulip.

Chulip is an incredibly creative game with a lot of really cool stuff in it but it's a massive pain to actually play, you'll come out with a much better opinion of it if you watch an LP with the the tedium edited down a lot than if you went through it yourself (Stephenplays has a 100% playthrough if anyone's curious, that's where I saw it).

A lot of these mario hacks and fangames raocow plays are the same way for me. Stuff like this last level where it takes half an hour to get three fairly small sections just isn't something I can do, but seeing it played by someone else let's me pay more attention to the design since I'm not spending most of the time being annoyed by having to restart over and over.

[Mandew]

stuff

more stuff

Huh! Video Games bring an experience to those playing it; Let's Plays transfer this experience, albeit altered, from the player to their viewers.
raocow plays a ton of stuff I would honestly not get through myself, and even sometimes watching him makes me want to actually try what he's playing.

I was super grateful for people being exposed to my romhack through raocow. Like, I just know that way beyond the majority of people watching wouldn't have played it in the first place. People got to experience it, have their own opinion on it, and honestly that's really amazing!

[Learning-Timebuster]

so uh, about that ending

how exactly was that something only people who finished the game should get to see? is it just because if you didnt the end message would be slightly awkward or something

[Money]

Horikawa's voice just SINKING as she realizes just why the level took a kajillion years to load, oh my god

[Grounder]

That cutscene really wasn't worth protecting, honestly.

Like, I'm sure it was a lot of hard work, but tech moves on, and it just comes across as a big waste of time.

[S.N.N.]

The cutscene is pretty cool, but I also agree that there was no reason to hold it on a pedestal. It's a neat ending - it shouldn't have been made anything beyond that.

[Stink Terios]

Just watched Horikawa's upload.
When I played it before, It stopped as a black screen with music playing and the clip show didn't happen.

G O O D J O B

[Alice]

i assumed that a lot of raocow's fanbase would know about it because there are a lot of touhou fans here because raocow has played a lot of touhou fangames, and it seems to me that it is fairly well known among touhou fans

Just because raocow played some Touhou fangames doesn't mean his entire fanbase is familiar with them. I've personally spent maybe an hour total playing the official Touhou games.

and you can't then use that lack of complaint as justification that criticism of Imaynotbehere4long's is invalid like it seemed like you were trying to do for the same reasons.

do you need to take a rest

"I don't have anything to say so let's say something stupid instead."
You'd think for someone who has mentioned to me on multiple occasions that you hate ending up debating or arguing with someone due to anxiety and such you'd put more effort into not making said debates/arguments worse by acting like a jerk to the person you're replying to.

The point is that if the majority of raocow's fanbase isn't familiar with that Touhou rule then you can't try to use it as justification for Imaynotbehere4long's request. On top of that raocow doesn't even lp the official Touhou games either so there's literally no reason to assume they would be familiar with that rule. And just because they're complaining here about Imaynotbehere4long's request doesn't mean that they approve of the Touhou rule if they do know about it. The reason they wouldn't mention it here is specifically because this is the talkhaus, centered around raocow's lps and thus complaining about not being able to upload the endings to the Touhou games is completely irrelevant to the actual topic.

[Hoeloe]

That cutscene really wasn't worth protecting, honestly.

Like, I'm sure it was a lot of hard work, but tech moves on, and it just comes across as a big waste of time.

The really weird thing I find about that scene is this.

First of all, everything seen in that would be possible with LunaLua without having to record huge gifs, and without too much effort either. That would have not only made the scene better (running at full framerate, unlike the gifs), but also wouldn't take a million years to load, or to put together. I can maybe understand someone not wanting to attempt this if they had no idea how LunaLua works but...

This scene actually USED LunaLua to generate some of those scenes. The black letterboxing with text? That's cinematX text, generated with LunaLua. So this scene did use LunaLua (meaning at least someone working on it had at least a passing knowledge of how it works, which is all that would be needed to make this scene in its entirety), but the output of the LunaLua version was baked into gifs.

This is just... nonsensical. You could, and to some extent did, make it with LunaLua. You chose to use huge gifs that hugely inflate the filesize and load times, and prevent some people from even being able to open the level if they don't have enough RAM because....

"I can say it doesn't use Lua!"

Literally that's the only reason I can think for this to have been done. And it's a dumb as hell reason.