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SMWCX - Credits

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tirakai
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Postby tirakai » 3 years ago

The talk about accessibility and such reminds of Chulip.

Chulip is an incredibly creative game with a lot of really cool stuff in it but it's a massive pain to actually play, you'll come out with a much better opinion of it if you watch an LP with the the tedium edited down a lot than if you went through it yourself (Stephenplays has a 100% playthrough if anyone's curious, that's where I saw it).

A lot of these mario hacks and fangames raocow plays are the same way for me. Stuff like this last level where it takes half an hour to get three fairly small sections just isn't something I can do, but seeing it played by someone else let's me pay more attention to the design since I'm not spending most of the time being annoyed by having to restart over and over.

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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Postby Mandew » 3 years ago

Arctangent wrote:
Horikawa Otane wrote:stuff
more stuff
Huh! Video Games bring an experience to those playing it; Let's Plays transfer this experience, albeit altered, from the player to their viewers.
raocow plays a ton of stuff I would honestly not get through myself, and even sometimes watching him makes me want to actually try what he's playing.

I was super grateful for people being exposed to my romhack through raocow. Like, I just know that way beyond the majority of people watching wouldn't have played it in the first place. People got to experience it, have their own opinion on it, and honestly that's really amazing!
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Postby Learning-Timebuster » 3 years ago

so uh, about that ending

how exactly was that something only people who finished the game should get to see? is it just because if you didnt the end message would be slightly awkward or something

"i like bugs"
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Money
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Postby Money » 3 years ago

Horikawa's voice just SINKING as she realizes just why the level took a kajillion years to load, oh my god


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Grounder
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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby Grounder » 3 years ago

That cutscene really wasn't worth protecting, honestly.

Like, I'm sure it was a lot of hard work, but tech moves on, and it just comes across as a big waste of time.
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby S.N.N. » 3 years ago

The cutscene is pretty cool, but I also agree that there was no reason to hold it on a pedestal. It's a neat ending - it shouldn't have been made anything beyond that.

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Stink Terios
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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby Stink Terios » 3 years ago

Just watched Horikawa's upload.
When I played it before, It stopped as a black screen with music playing and the clip show didn't happen.

G O O D J O B

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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Postby Alice » 3 years ago

Leet wrote:i assumed that a lot of raocow's fanbase would know about it because there are a lot of touhou fans here because raocow has played a lot of touhou fangames, and it seems to me that it is fairly well known among touhou fans
Just because raocow played some Touhou fangames doesn't mean his entire fanbase is familiar with them. I've personally spent maybe an hour total playing the official Touhou games.
and you can't then use that lack of complaint as justification that criticism of Imaynotbehere4long's is invalid like it seemed like you were trying to do for the same reasons.
do you need to take a rest
"I don't have anything to say so let's say something stupid instead."
You'd think for someone who has mentioned to me on multiple occasions that you hate ending up debating or arguing with someone due to anxiety and such you'd put more effort into not making said debates/arguments worse by acting like a jerk to the person you're replying to.

The point is that if the majority of raocow's fanbase isn't familiar with that Touhou rule then you can't try to use it as justification for Imaynotbehere4long's request. On top of that raocow doesn't even lp the official Touhou games either so there's literally no reason to assume they would be familiar with that rule. And just because they're complaining here about Imaynotbehere4long's request doesn't mean that they approve of the Touhou rule if they do know about it. The reason they wouldn't mention it here is specifically because this is the talkhaus, centered around raocow's lps and thus complaining about not being able to upload the endings to the Touhou games is completely irrelevant to the actual topic.

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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby Hoeloe » 3 years ago

Grounder wrote:That cutscene really wasn't worth protecting, honestly.

Like, I'm sure it was a lot of hard work, but tech moves on, and it just comes across as a big waste of time.
The really weird thing I find about that scene is this.

First of all, everything seen in that would be possible with LunaLua without having to record huge gifs, and without too much effort either. That would have not only made the scene better (running at full framerate, unlike the gifs), but also wouldn't take a million years to load, or to put together. I can maybe understand someone not wanting to attempt this if they had no idea how LunaLua works but...

This scene actually USED LunaLua to generate some of those scenes. The black letterboxing with text? That's cinematX text, generated with LunaLua. So this scene did use LunaLua (meaning at least someone working on it had at least a passing knowledge of how it works, which is all that would be needed to make this scene in its entirety), but the output of the LunaLua version was baked into gifs.

This is just... nonsensical. You could, and to some extent did, make it with LunaLua. You chose to use huge gifs that hugely inflate the filesize and load times, and prevent some people from even being able to open the level if they don't have enough RAM because....

"I can say it doesn't use Lua!"

Literally that's the only reason I can think for this to have been done. And it's a dumb as hell reason.
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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby BobisOnlyBob » 3 years ago

Hoeloe wrote:"I can say it doesn't use Lua!"

Literally that's the only reason I can think for this to have been done.
The reason that comes to mind is so... people don't have to update past 1.3? So it's compatible with the 'canonical' SMBX, as opposed to the various LunaDLL/LunaLua forks or the upcoming radically different SMBX2.

Like, I'm still not sure that's a sufficient reason, but it's a slightly more valid reason.
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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby Hoeloe » 3 years ago

BobisOnlyBob wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:"I can say it doesn't use Lua!"

Literally that's the only reason I can think for this to have been done.
The reason that comes to mind is so... people don't have to update past 1.3? So it's compatible with the 'canonical' SMBX, as opposed to the various LunaDLL/LunaLua forks or the upcoming radically different SMBX2.

Like, I'm still not sure that's a sufficient reason, but it's a slightly more valid reason.
Really, there are only two actively competing forks - SMBX2.0 and SMBX1.4.

1.4 is totally incompatible with 1.3 stuff anyway, and while 2.0 is a little behind currently, that won't be the case for long.

There's literally no reason not to update other than stubbornness.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Postby Leet » 3 years ago

Alice wrote:
no, i'm just not having a debate right now. i don't really care about reading and writing long paragraphs about the percent chance for a reader to know about x touhou fact, or meticulously "using a lack of complaint as justification that criticism is invalid"

that's why i said what i said, because i don't give a shit about any of that. i was never here to debate, just say "hey, isn't this all a little overblown?" and really i don't get why you replied to me with some kind of Courtroom Takedown

re: calm down
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Postby Alice » 3 years ago

Leet wrote:no, i'm just not having a debate right now. i don't really care about reading and writing long paragraphs about the percent chance for a reader to know about x touhou fact, or meticulously "using a lack of complaint as justification that criticism is invalid"

that's why i said what i said, because i don't give a shit about any of that. i was never here to debate, just say "hey, isn't this all a little overblown?" and really i don't get why you replied to me with some kind of Courtroom Takedown
Bullshit. If you actually didn't care then you wouldn't have said anything to begin with.
re: calm down
I'm perfectly calm? Thoroughly wording what I say isn't an indicator I'm not calm or something.

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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby Leet » 3 years ago

i profusely apologize for the heinous crime of Posting In The Thread, part of my manipulative deception to trick people into thinking i cared about something, or whatever
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby Imaynotbehere4long » 3 years ago

All right, everyone, I have an announcement to make:
raocow wrote:ping
I hereby rescind my request not to spoil The Finale. I know that this won't magically fix everything, but I thought I'd at least try to make whatever amends I can.

I honestly didn't know that a community based around fans of let's-plays would be this upset over a let's-play being unfinished (feel free to call me an idiot over this). This is because, personally, I've never been that big a fan of let's-plays (because why wouldn't you just play the game yourself? Don't answer that, I saw why already), so I really didn't know how much this meant to you all. Horikawa's post about game accessibility got to me the most because the main reason I made The Finale compatible with SMBX 1.3 is because I remembered seeing people's posts on the SMBX forums talking about how they couldn't get SMBX + LunaLua to work on their computers, and I didn't want them to miss out on the ending in what would have otherwise been fully compatible with SMBX 1.3 just because they couldn't get the latest version of SMBX to work.

Just remember one thing:
Lejes wrote:Not even going to open it in the editor. I entered that final door once, waited several minutes, and it crashed almost immediately.
Stink Terios wrote:When I played it before, It stopped as a black screen with music playing and the clip show didn't happen.
The level only works properly in SMBX 1.3. Playing it in LunaLua will just cause problems.
Hoeloe wrote:"I can say it doesn't use Lua!"

Literally that's the only reason I can think for this to have been done. And it's a dumb as hell reason.
Actually, the reason is because I remember seeing posts on the SMBX forums of people saying that they couldn't get SMBX + LunaLua to run on their computers in the first place, and I wanted everyone to be able to play it. That's why none of the graphics are larger than 800x16000: anything larger would crash Lua outright. Of course, when it crashed Lua anyway, I figured we could just tell people to switch to SMBX 1.3 because, after all, if your computer can run SMBX + LunaLua, it's powerful enough to run ordinary SMBX 1.3, so it's not like I was alienating anyone. Admittedly, I don't know if anything has been done to fix the compatibility issues in later versions of Lua, but you have to understand that this has been in development for years.

Plus, I actually have next to no Lua experience. All I did to emulate cinematX was take the tech demo, find the dialogue string in the text file, and replace it with what I wanted it to say; that's it. I couldn't even figure out how to change the character's name without breaking the whole thing (It also froze when

I tried to get it to show the "NOOO" that goes off-screen

), so I just wrote the name as a line of dialogue and edited it afterward.


Oh, and one more thing:
Horikawa Otane wrote:
Horikawa Otane wrote:I'm almost 100% sure this is inaccurate. Anything vanilla SMBX will work fine with 2.0.

Unless they're doing weird things with blending ala Magnificent Waluigi. Could you ask them that?

edit: I'll also play the game through now I guess.
New graphics renderer crashes when there are too many big graphics, apparently (graphics cards have less RAM, the assets are just huge). The level in question which crashes has 50MB of graphics, and they are .gifs. Old engine doesn't appear to have a problem with that.
This will depend on your video card. raocow ought to be fine on his.

(I'll also send him a patch that'll fix it just in case)
I noticed that you recorded The Finale in SMBX 1.3 (since that level has LunaDLL code that hides the HUD), so...

1) What happened to that patch??
2) Now that you know what The Finale is, will you (or anyone else on the 2.0 team) make a patch for that?
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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby raocow » 3 years ago

haha, welp.
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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby SAJewers » 3 years ago

Hoeloe wrote:
BobisOnlyBob wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:"I can say it doesn't use Lua!"

Literally that's the only reason I can think for this to have been done.
The reason that comes to mind is so... people don't have to update past 1.3? So it's compatible with the 'canonical' SMBX, as opposed to the various LunaDLL/LunaLua forks or the upcoming radically different SMBX2.

Like, I'm still not sure that's a sufficient reason, but it's a slightly more valid reason.
Really, there are only two actively competing forks - SMBX2.0 and SMBX1.4.

1.4 is totally incompatible with 1.3 stuff anyway, and while 2.0 is a little behind currently, that won't be the case for long.

There's literally no reason not to update other than stubbornness.
What about PGE Engine?
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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby Dragooner » 3 years ago

I feel like this turned a little bit into bullying at one point.

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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby Sebby19 » 3 years ago

I nominate this moment for Most Hostile Community Backlash, when the talkhaus mosts come around next time.
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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby Ometeotl » 3 years ago

Dragooner wrote:I feel like this turned a little bit into bullying at one point.
Criticism does not equate to bullying

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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby Sebby19 » 3 years ago

It's a fine line.
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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby Ometeotl » 3 years ago

Only if you're a first grader.

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The Destroyer of Worlds
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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby The Destroyer of Worlds » 3 years ago

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
Horikawa Otane wrote:
Imaynotbehere4long wrote: New graphics renderer crashes when there are too many big graphics, apparently (graphics cards have less RAM, the assets are just huge). The level in question which crashes has 50MB of graphics, and they are .gifs. Old engine doesn't appear to have a problem with that.
This will depend on your video card. raocow ought to be fine on his.

(I'll also send him a patch that'll fix it just in case)
I noticed that you recorded The Finale in SMBX 1.3 (since that level has LunaDLL code that hides the HUD), so...

1) What happened to that patch??
2) Now that you know what The Finale is, will you (or anyone else on the 2.0 team) make a patch for that?
Yeah, I gave it the 'ol diagnostics last night and tried a bunch of things and, honestly, I couldn't get it to work. I've discussed this with rednaxela, who does the 2.0 work relevant to this, and he didn't have an immediate solution, but proposed a couple longer term ones.

This problem used to show up a lot back when images too large for vram were in the level. When I saw files that were like 768x16000, I immediately thought this was the issue. It turns out you were right, actually, it's a separate issue - one I hadn't seen before where loading ALL the images together caused the bug. I no longer have any idea if raocow will be able to play the level or not. I wasn't able to with 2gb of VRAM. He might be able to if he has more than that. Interestingly - for me, it loaded the level and started the cutscene, but then after a couple seconds, it crashed. VERY weird.

What I would recommend doing for the short term is handling these cutscenes in LunaLua, making that the default level in 1.02, and then having a '1.3.0.1' patch be downloadable, which would also allow you to support that (and this would be the current level as-is). You'd need to make the LunaLua one the default so that these gigantic images aren't loaded and would be patched in as-required.

In the long term it's a thing we plan to fix. But that involves a complete revamp of the image loading processes in SMBX. It's on the docket, but won't be done for awhile is the sad reality.

Anyway, honestly, if nothing else I genuinely do appreciate you pushing the engine this far and pointing out this problem. It was genuinely useful to our 2.0 dev. So regardless of drama, you helped out there and I appreciate you for that! :)
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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby Leet » 3 years ago

Ometeotl wrote:
Dragooner wrote:I feel like this turned a little bit into bullying at one point.
Criticism does not equate to bullying
There were a fair amount of people attacking the guy and even SMWC for some reason. Lots of assuming intentions and acting as if wanting to keep the ending a secret was arrogant instead of simply misguided

I mean, there was lots of normal criticism/discussion too, but the backlash was rather extreme for what's just a video game ending. (Of course, a lot of the worst stuff was in the youtube comments, which is to be expected...)

I feel pretty bad for the guy, but I'm also glad the LP will be complete.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: SMWCX - Happy Fun Candy Time

Postby S.N.N. » 3 years ago

Leet wrote:(Of course, a lot of the worst stuff was in the youtube comments, which is to be expected...)
I liked the "SMWC is known for shitting on Talkhaus projects" comment which a) isn't true at all, and b) has nothing to do with the "don't LP the finale" request.


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