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SMWCX - Credits

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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by Mandew »

So as I see here, I can't be the only one who thinks that not only requesting to hide the finale, but also hiding the passwords in that one level to sorta speak of "being full of it"? A little bit maybe?

Like, seriously, that second part is really what aggravates me the most - if I knew that I'm likely enjoy playing through that level, I would certainly explore all of its contents regardless whether there was an easy way out or not. I mean, enjoying the game is really why I play the game.

You think your players don't deserve this level if they're not willing to put themselves through it - which is a statement full on backwards to what "game design" is.

Players don't need to put a whole lot of effort to deserve games;
Games need to put forth tons of effort to deserve its players.

This game would have lost its deservance of me playing it near the end of World 7, at which point I would probably go play something else.

The mentality that players don't deserve your game is not only super unhealthy; in fact, this is what puts the standards so low that 90% of all games on any platform are garbage. You're making a game for the players. It's your job to interest the players and keep the players interested in the most likely way you can think of. In the real world, the average player doesn't care if you put a lot of work into something if they don't have fun playing the game.-
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by TaviTurnip »

lol like 5 people watching this lp are actually going to go ahead and play the finale
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by Imaynotbehere4long »

Ryrir wrote:I like how the dude brought forward his request as an incentive for people to play the game for themselves
That's actually not why I made the request. It was more because, since The Finale was meant to be a reward of sorts, uploading a video of it to YouTube would take away from those who've already earned a 100% complete save file; they put in the time to make it there, but then suddenly anyone could just look it up on YouTube with minimal effort. And yeah, The Finale itself probably isn't much to write home about, but the amount of effort the player would have to put in to reach that point legitimately is very real. I'm not trying to provide an incentive to slog through my marathon levels, but rather, I'm trying to make it so those who did slog through them don't feel like they wasted their time.

Trying.

I had the feeling people would take it that way and get really upset (and even make "upload it in retaliation" posts), but that's okay; you don't have to play the episode if you don't want to play it.
Voltgloss wrote:Did IMNBH4L make this request before raocow started the LP?
HarmfulGravemind wrote:Did he make that request before you even started the let's play or did it just come out of the blue now?
I didn't even know raocow was planning on playing this until I went to finish watching his Big Fish Legend LP and saw that he had already uploaded two videos for this one. Had I known that he was going to do this, I probably would have asked him not to play the whole thing, if only because I could foresee this event (but then we'd never have gotten feedback! Oh well).
HarmfulGravemind wrote:If I was in raocows shoes here, I would not play anymore SMWC collabs anymore
Whoa, don't throw all of SMWC under the bus because of this! Especially since I'm from the SMBX community, not SMWC.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by FPzero »

I think the thing that has bothered me the most about the recent levels is that they give you two mushrooms at the start of a segment and then that's basically it for the whole level or segment. It turns these levels into massive endurance runs where you essentially have to keep playing over and over to learn how to near-perfect the first parts so that you might have a hit or two to expend when you get further in. When the challenge is as high as it is here, I don't see how handing the player one mushroom per area per segment would be a bad idea.

Its just a personal thought of mine. I know that when I design levels I usually hand out powerups at a high rate so maybe I'm not the best judge of hard difficulty. I've always felt that powerup starvation mixed with hard and precise level design is just a recipe for frustration on the player's part though. Do one or the other, not both. Letting your players die is okay, but when a player spends more than 30 minutes on a level, you might have done something wrong. More than an hour, and something is definitely wrong.

I hope powerup addition is under consideration for the planned update. A lot of these harder levels could be helped by the addition of even just one, maybe two powerups.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by Stink Terios »

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:I'm not trying to provide an incentive to slog through my marathon levels, but rather, I'm trying to make it so those who did slog through them don't feel like they wasted their time.
I'm not sure I felt like my time was completely wasted, but I sure do now! Your effort to mitigate a problem only made it several times worse.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by The Doctor »

Imaynotbehere4long wrote: That's actually not why I made the request. It was more because, since The Finale was meant to be a reward of sorts, uploading a video of it to YouTube would take away from those who've already earned a 100% complete save file; they put in the time to make it there, but then suddenly anyone could just look it up on YouTube with minimal effort.
The ending cutscene and credits are a reward in every single video game ever released. Why does your game deserve extra consideration?
I'm not trying to provide an incentive to slog through my marathon levels, but rather, I'm trying to make it so those who did slog through them don't feel like they wasted their time.
The levels themselves should be enjoyable. If your levels are slogs that a player is only forcing themselves through to get a reward then you failed at level design. A good level will never make a player feel like they wasted their time by playing it. Work on your level design instead of trying to protect the carrot at the end of the stick.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by Alice »

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:That's actually not why I made the request. It was more because, since The Finale was meant to be a reward of sorts, uploading a video of it to YouTube would take away from those who've already earned a 100% complete save file; they put in the time to make it there, but then suddenly anyone could just look it up on YouTube with minimal effort. And yeah, The Finale itself probably isn't much to write home about, but the amount of effort the player would have to put in to reach that point legitimately is very real. I'm not trying to provide an incentive to slog through my marathon levels, but rather, I'm trying to make it so those who did slog through them don't feel like they wasted their time.

Trying.

I had the feeling people would take it that way and get really upset (and even make "upload it in retaliation" posts), but that's okay; you don't have to play the episode if you don't want to play it.
Why would you even bother trying this to begin with? Most people aren't going to care and are going to value the gameplay up to that point far more than any reward. Even with your rather poorly thought out request they're probably going to feel more like the finale isn't really worth it (and that the reward was simply their feeling of accomplishment itself) unless the finale is really exceptional, which doesn't seem to be the case.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by Ryrir »

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
Ryrir wrote:I like how the dude brought forward his request as an incentive for people to play the game for themselves
That's actually not why I made the request. It was more because, since The Finale was meant to be a reward of sorts, uploading a video of it to YouTube would take away from those who've already earned a 100% complete save file; they put in the time to make it there, but then suddenly anyone could just look it up on YouTube with minimal effort.
What? This makes even less sense though.

So let me get this straight: You think that someone who has already cleared the game 100% is going to be mad because other people besides themselves are getting to see the ending? Like, what? The enjoyment someone has is not lessened because other people might enjoy the same thing too

This situation is so absurdly hypothetical (and just plain weird) that it makes absolutely no sense to alienate raocow's viewership because of it.

Like, are you in contact with a person who thinks like this? Did that really come up in a conversation you had with someone about this game? Or is it just all in your head?
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by 128-Up »

Is anyone else reminded of the whole drama around Sakurai removing a story mode from Smash 4 because the cutscenes from Brawl's Subspace Emissary were uploaded to YouTube?

Because reading all this (I got curious, okay) sure makes me think of that.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by Alice »

Ryrir wrote:What? This makes even less sense though.

So let me get this straight: You think that someone who has already cleared the game 100% is going to be mad because other people besides themselves are getting to see the ending? Like, what? The enjoyment someone has is not lessened because other people might enjoy the same thing too

This situation is so absurdly hypothetical (and just plain weird) that it makes absolutely no sense to alienate raocow's viewership because of it.

Like, are you in contact with a person who thinks like this? Did that really come up in a conversation you had with someone about this game? Or is it just all in your head?
There actually are people like that. They're fairly uncommon though and complete morons, however, who shouldn't be paid any attention.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by FrozenQuills »

There's a difference between wondering and wanting to see what the ending is like versus achieving all you can in the game so that you can feel accomplished and happy when seeing the ending. So I don't understand someone being mad at someone else because they wanted to see the ending without going through the game.

Controversy aside, I don't think having a marathon of mini levels that is able to be reasonably played by some password system is a good idea, but at least imnbh4l admits it's just a proof of concept. Usually games do this so that their save system is made easier or that they don't have the capabilities to do actual saving, so putting it in a level just feels awkward; they are all disjointed enough both in themes and gameplay to be separate levels.
(or even better, one can just use luna shortcuts so passwords don't have to be typed every time you die)

Also I forgot to mention this, but that level yesterday was a pretty rad idea I wasn't sure how to implement myself, so props with that.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by SAJewers »

It's a real shame that something that's quite good on the whole gets kinda ruined by the ending.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by Mandew »

SAJewers wrote:It's a real shame that something that's quite good on the whole gets kinda ruined by the ending.
The story of many romhacks/fan projects

This is the one global mistake that keeps being repeated and keeps ruining everything.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by Nimono »

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
Ryrir wrote:I like how the dude brought forward his request as an incentive for people to play the game for themselves
That's actually not why I made the request. It was more because, since The Finale was meant to be a reward of sorts, uploading a video of it to YouTube would take away from those who've already earned a 100% complete save file; they put in the time to make it there, but then suddenly anyone could just look it up on YouTube with minimal effort. And yeah, The Finale itself probably isn't much to write home about, but the amount of effort the player would have to put in to reach that point legitimately is very real. I'm not trying to provide an incentive to slog through my marathon levels, but rather, I'm trying to make it so those who did slog through them don't feel like they wasted their time.

Trying.

I had the feeling people would take it that way and get really upset (and even make "upload it in retaliation" posts), but that's okay; you don't have to play the episode if you don't want to play it.
But that's not your problem. If people yell at others because they got to see an ending without playing the game, that's THEIR problem, it's not yours. You shouldn't be trying to keep people from doing that. People who will act like that will find SOME way to yell at others anyway. The reward of an action game is the gameplay itself, not the ending- don't deny watchers the ending just because you're afraid of what other people would do. It's not how you attract people to play your game. I agree with what others have said: Your words effectively say "If you don't play, you don't deserve the ending!" I agree with the notion that it's the other way around- the GAME needs to deserve US. You show us that the game deserves to be played with great gameplay. Focus on that above trying to make sure 100%ers get a reward no one else gets to see.

Think of it this way: A game is meant to bring joy to people. An LP uses that to bring joy to the people who watch it. But if you deny some of the game's content to people who watch an LP, you're depriving them of that joy. Is that fair to them? Who would you rather please, the small minority who will scream at not being able to put themselves above others, or the large majority who just wants to see something cool and fun?
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by Ometeotl »

Stink Terios wrote:
Also the finale is worth like, a chuckle at most and I'm absolutely BAFFLED as to why it takes two minutes to load.
I completely forgot this stupidity was a thing.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by Leet »

I'm sorry for everyone's attitudes, long name dev guy. I ultimately agree with their points, but you're not a criminal, just making a bad decision. Negativity is just not worth it for a simple mario fangame.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by Lejes »

I'm disappointed that half of the comments on today's video weren't "MOVE FASTER, GEEMER!".

I'll be honest, after cheating my way past Sky Fortress Assault, I immediately cheated my way past all of Imaynotbehere4long's postgame levels. I wasn't dealing with any more of his stuff. The other levels in the postgame weren't too bad, though. But even with the power of cheats, I'm among the people who's never going to bother watching the ending cutscene. Not even going to open it in the editor. I entered that final door once, waited several minutes, and it crashed almost immediately. At some point, you have to realize that there are limitations. SMBX isn't infinitely powerful and scaling your shit back can be a huge improvement.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by FPzero »

Mandew wrote:
SAJewers wrote:It's a real shame that something that's quite good on the whole gets kinda ruined by the ending.
The story of many romhacks/fan projects

This is the one global mistake that keeps being repeated and keeps ruining everything.
It's because so many projects feel like they need a big, epic, memorable final stage/boss, and it usually ends up being all of those things, but at the expense of fun. Its memorability comes from being a frustrating experience that you just want to be over and done with, rather than because it was an awesome final display of design.

Super Mario 3D World manages to have an amazing end fight against Bowser that's super memorable and feels epic thanks to the music and setting. It's also very fun to play and doesn't overstay its welcome. SMWCentral Production 1 ended up doing the exact opposite by having the level be extra long, extra tedious and sadly not very fun by the end of it. And I helped make a portion of that final level, so I feel no hesitation to call it what it is.

You see the same problem with collab hacks in general, where many people want their level to be memorable or, in the case of being LPed, want the LPer to have a nice lengthy video devoted to their work. But many times it ends up going too long, too far, and it's just unfortunate.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by tirakai »

I've always figured the reason why so many romhacks and fangames have annoying fun-sapping finales that try to do way too much is due to the lack of testing. A lot of people like to throw every idea they have at something and see what sticks but if the only people giving feedback are a couple highly skilled community members that test everyone's stuff they're never going to learn what doesn't work and why, and as such they don't know what really doesn't need to be there or what just isn't fun to play through.

It's especially prevalent in finales since it's typically the part where people try to fill with their biggest ideas where they're trying to do something special without holding anything back (as well as people thinking along the lines of 'it's the postgame so it has to be the hardest part') and tend to take things as far as they can.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by BobisOnlyBob »

FirePhoenix wrote:
Mandew wrote:
SAJewers wrote:It's a real shame that something that's quite good on the whole gets kinda ruined by the ending.
The story of many romhacks/fan projects

This is the one global mistake that keeps being repeated and keeps ruining everything.
It's because so many projects feel like they need a big, epic, memorable final stage/boss, and it usually ends up being all of those things, but at the expense of fun. Its memorability comes from being a frustrating experience that you just want to be over and done with, rather than because it was an awesome final display of design.
I really hope raocow publicly shows the ending now, because the irony of this comment is palpable given what occurs in the ending.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by kitikami »

Man, I do not get the amount of vitriol this whole thing about the finale has stirred up. Especially if it's just a cutscene and not even a proper level. It's not like there is any real story that is left hanging by not seeing it, or like this is something the game has built up to or hinted at all this time. It's just a secret bonus we didn't even know existed until today's video. I can see being disappointed to find out there is something at the end and not seeing it, but the overall reaction just seems so ridiculously out of proportion for something that is relatively benign.
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by LaularuKyrumo »

It's not the action itself. It's what it implies.

I'd recommend reading back through the past 40 or 50 posts again. The sentiment echoed repeatedly is pretty spot-on, and frankly, I just can't be arsed to multiquote 10 replies that say mostly the same thing. I do, however, think it can be mostly summed up with this post.
MoneyMan wrote:I think what rubs me the wrong way the most about this whole deal is the implication that you should feel honored to witness his level. That honestly goes against every tenant of creation imo; if anything it's closer to (but not quite) the other way around
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by LunarNeedle »

kitikami wrote:Man, I do not get the amount of vitriol this whole thing about the finale has stirred up. Especially if it's just a cutscene and not even a proper level. It's not like there is any real story that is left hanging by not seeing it, or like this is something the game has built up to or hinted at all this time. It's just a secret bonus we didn't even know existed until today's video. I can see being disappointed to find out there is something at the end and not seeing it, but the overall reaction just seems so ridiculously out of proportion for something that is relatively benign.
Ah, I believe it's actually a full level that's being omitted rather than just a cutscene. I don't think majority of these complaints would've happened if it was a cutscene or that this was announced far earlier on. I still give props for raocow, I just would've loved to know his opinion of the final level nonetheless. There's my opinion. *shrugs*
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by LunarNeedle »

Now for the level in the most recent video. The password system was definitely appreciated and the level while being hard was really well made. I'm a massive sucker for the Metroid elements just due to the aesthetics of it all. Plus raocow struggling to make work of the third room was quite a riot. Turns out the riot was over here and it was not really friendly.

Either way, the level was a notable improvement and I cannot wait to see what the final level holds... *twitch*
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Re: SMWCX - The Very Loooooong Cave

Post by BobisOnlyBob »

LunarNeedle wrote:Ah, I believe it's actually a full level that's being omitted rather than just a cutscene. I don't think majority of these complaints would've happened if it was a cutscene or that this was announced far earlier on. I still give props for raocow, I just would've loved to know his opinion of the final level nonetheless. There's my opinion. *shrugs*
It's not. However, it's structured to look like final/boss level, hence the discontentment and concern. It's literally just a cutscene - but that's a spoiler, because it being mistakable for a level is quite deliberate, which has mixed very negatively with the request to conceal it.
Personally I disapprove of both requests for concealment - the one for the passwords and the one for the finale - but I don't begrudge Imnbh4l's intent.
This resentment has built up from the weakness of the main final level, some questionable decisions throughout, and now a multi-part stage with an incredibly awkward/tiresome password gimmick (it seems like a good idea now, but realise you need to place all five objects every time you die) that really could've been three separate levels with their own beginnings and endings - AND the impositions on raocow's LP. It's a "final straw".
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