JUMP - Let's meet again at JUMP½

[Divemissile]

i really have to appreciate raocow's patience with levels like these. i haven't played this level, but if i did i'd probably resort to savestates as soon as i saw that podoboo jump

[Zephyr_DragonLord]

First of all, Miscellaneous Monument is a level I really like. There's just so much variety to its challenges. The old version was a bit much, however... At least the fishing boos were very temporary.

Depraved Stronghold.... I can respect what this level is doing (being a brutal gauntlet in the strictest sense of the word), and it at least has a coherent look to it, unlike other levels like this. But I would despise playing this. I have a deep-seated hatred of confined spaces in Mario. This exploits that to a T. Not only that, but there's a forced podobo jump (several, if you haven't pushed all the switches). I dislike these for a very different reason than raocow; you can predict podobo movement by following a gut feeling. However, they're liable to kill Mario from wonky mechanics. Seeing a podobo jump go wrong is never fun, especially when you have high tensions on the line.

Nonetheless, I know you can beat your own level, Jolpe. This level's like that stone golem: very simple, yet incredibly deadly. And you see it coming from a mile away. Both you and raocow's been through a ton. This level just happens to not feature one of your shortcomings.

[cozyduck]

However, [podoboos are] liable to kill Mario from wonky mechanics.

This glitch is fixed in JUMP.

[Ometeotl]

well that didnt look fun

You just don't get it. It was supposed to not be fun!

[Zephyr_DragonLord]

However, [podoboos are] liable to kill Mario from wonky mechanics.

This glitch is fixed in JUMP.

Thank god. That makes putting a podobo jump in a level not an automatic sin. ...Probably why I don't feel too strongly about Depraved Stronghold, actually...

[Money]

Yeah this would prob be 90% better with a custom podoboo that has non-random timing. Everything else seemed p well designed

[Telamon]

Well, I gotta say that if sub-2 hours is enough to break you, Jolpe's levels just aren't for you. And, just to be clear, there's nothing wrong with this. raocow has said himself that he doesn't really game except to make videos anymore, and there's nothing gratifying about spending 2+ hours for one part of a level that will only make 20 minutes of video. But regardless of that, it's just not an approach that everyone can enjoy, and that's that.

[ano0maly]

The point of the level is not "let's make a hard level using thwomps, podobos, spikes, etc."
The point of the level is to create this exact feeling - basically to get the player to play super carefully with sweating hands and heavy breaths on the verge of a panic attack, unsure if they'll make it on this attempt or if they'll be stuck on the level for another four hours.
You would simply not be able to convey that exact feeling with multiple midpoints. (Now the question of course is whether you want to have a level like that in the collab at all or if it'd just be better to scrap it entirely, but the point still stands that putting more checkpoints just sort of nullifies the entire level).

Quote from Jolpe from a year ago:

Pleeaaaase dont touch Depraved Stronghold, if you really want it easier I'll make it easier, but dont put stupid multimidpoints in that, that would destroy the level's purpose

I don't care what the purpose is, there should have been a midpoint at the room transition, it just felt so natural to have one. If the purpose of your level directly implies "make the player feel defeated after a long, drawn-out attempt" then it has a wrong goal. Or at least it shouldn't have used things like podobo jumping.

That level reminded me of the Forest Fortress in world 5 of Super Mario World, at the end where there's an optional segment of hopping across podobos to get some 1-ups before you fight Reznor.

[Telamon]

If the purpose of your level directly implies "make the player feel defeated after a long, drawn-out attempt" then it has a wrong goal.

Or, alternately, implies "make the player feel satisfied after doing something really really f'king hard." Like, there's NEVER going to be a definite place to draw the line here. Expecting someone to complete DT3 without dying or saving would be absurd, but so would giving a checkpoint ever time you hit a boss. The challenge in game design is to decide how far to lean in either direction, and while I readily admit Jolpe's approach is not for everyone, your comment seems to imply there is some approach that is just ojectively right, and that is just objectively not the case.

[Koopster]

By the way I think the podoboo doesn't use RNG to jump, I managed to count it and died there very rarely (that particular one jumps about every 5 SMW seconds, pretty much the same as a bullet machine shoots)
From the looks of it raocow didn't do the second half yet? I still didn't watch the video because I haven't finished the level yet.

[Arctangent]

It is the objectively the case in a collab that, while hard, avoids dropping its pants and downright pissing on you.

Actually, I guess this level would be more like someone downing a gallon of water, dropping their pants, and pissing on you only to then shank you and down another gallon and repeat if you don't enjoy it your entire way through.

[Validon98]

So watching this, watching the bit from nathanisbored's stream, and just overall thinking about this level as a whole... I'm not quite sure what to think exactly. I get the idea. I get what Jolpe's trying to do. I've seen enough of his level design to get the idea of what he wants to do. The level's just too long. Normal level or not, it's just too long, throwing so much at you, and if you have to take hours to beat a level like this, and I don't mean just three or so, I mean like five or six or even more, that's overkill. This is SMW. It might be a hack. But this is SMW. I can't think of a single game that has this intense of a challenge that goes on for so long. Not even SMBX had something like this. Granted, the obstacles look actually fair, podoboo jump aside, and it's mostly just a matter of learning it. But like I said back in... whatever Jolpe's world 5 level is, it's just so much you have to do nearly flawlessly. There are a lot of mushrooms, true. In Yellow Switch blocks, mind you. So even that won't save someone who hasn't 100% the switches, or at least did the Yellow Switch.

I get the idea of producing that feeling of being stressed, trying to do something over and over again in the hopes of it finally being "the run". I feel like other levels did that feeling better without needing to be a marathon. There are other entire GAMES that do that feeling better. If I were to sin this level for anything, it's for just... going on. And not ending. Even with a midpoint, that's enough content for TWO levels. It's ridiculous.

I'll give Jolpe the benefit of the doubt in the sense that at the least, for postgame difficulty, the level's pretty fair. It just goes on too long, that's literally it. This level needed to be two levels, not one.

[nathanisbored]

Oh hey, ok so since I was mentioned here, I'll give my proper thoughts. I'm surprised raocow didn't notice this, but the 3 tile high ceiling in the first room with the thwomp in the way where you have to squeeze over is actually inconsistent if you're big and sometimes you will literally get hit for no reason. This is one obstacle I don't like. I agree with raocow about podoboo jumping in the sense that it is inconsistent and feels like a gamble in this level, because I feel like this level showcases podoboo jumping in a bad way. There is a way to set up required podoboo jumps which are actually something you can properly react to, and leave you feeling like 'oh hey i can do podoboo jumps, look at me', but this level sets them up in such a way that it's basically impossible to react to, and it's a little weird. It's also worth noting that the yellow switch blocks in this level may as well have been cement blocks, because yellow switch is required to even access special world, so consider it a nerf rather than a reward xP

Going back to what Ryrir was saying: Yes, I do play these sorts of gauntlet levels specifically for that intense sense of satisfaction you get at the end, but I also recognize that it's A) not for everyone and B) not for an LP of this style. That said, I don't think JUMP is for everyone either, and I today's video is basically the reaction I expected raocow to have with most of this entire hack. It's not an ASMT collab or Magl or whatever, it's not really even made with raocow in mind. It's a very specific audience and like with most hard games, a pretty niche audience, and I just don't know if raocow falls into that category. He's good at the game, but he doesn't approach levels with a 'this is between me and the game' mentality, he approaches them with a 'lets keep this LP rolling' mentality. I don't have an issue with that. It's a shame that raocow's reaction to the level sets the tone for the viewers reaction, and maybe that creates an obligation for people to spend a lot of time and energy defending the level in response as a form of damage control. But I think it ultimately just comes down to a difference in whether you fundamentally like these sorts of hard levels or not, which is subjective and pointless to argue.

[alleightbits]

things to get pretty darn gosh difficult: Um....well....I guess the first half was okay. But podoboo jumping is actually pretty difficult, huh? I never thought it would be this bad, but I guess there you go. For the postgame, the overall difficulty is fine, but that's plain unfair.

[Alice]

raocow, you should play Gah and Gah 2 after Jump if you thought that level was frustrating. (Considering you watch Iso's videos I don't think I need to elaborate on why, lol.)

[Grounder]

raocow, you should play Gah and Gah 2 after Jump if you thought that level was frustrating. (Considering you watch Iso's videos I don't think I need to elaborate on why, lol.)

those are kaizo difficulty

jump is not

[cozyduck]

raocow, you should play Gah and Gah 2 after Jump if you thought that level was frustrating. (Considering you watch Iso's videos I don't think I need to elaborate on why, lol.)

those are kaizo difficulty

jump is not

Well, If we say that Kaizo 1 has Kaizo difficulty, then the end of JUMP may kinda be actually.
But it's certainly not comparable to most Kaizo hacks nowadays. It's still way easier then "What the Hell" too, raocow you hypocrite.

[thatguyif]

I am scared and I hope I will not rage. Maybe I won't read here and youtube lol, I mean I do understand why people would hate this level xD
Am gonna make a "I can beat it legit" video soon.. for the people who don't believe it for some reason

Well, when you make a comment like this:

First I broke Iso, now raocow, who is the next bigger LPer?

You're not exactly endearing yourself here. Defend your design as you must, but don't make yourself haughty in the process. Gives people another reason to rage on you.

(Yes, you were probably joking. But it's very difficult to make light of this situation without sounding like an ass)

[raocow]

It's still way easier then "What the Hell" too, raocow you hypocrite.

hey hey how many times must I express regrets, man

[Alice]

hey hey how many times must I express regrets, man

At least another ten to twenty thousand.

[YelseyKing]

"I'm not even angry... I'm being so sincere right now... Even though you broke my heart and killed me."

raocow's last line just... totally brought that verse to mind.

rao, you did a *damn* good job getting through this beast of a hack without save states up until now. What "defeated" you wasn't "that stage", it was a single luck-based jump, placed *way* too far into an already long and demanding stage. Moreover, the point of games and your LPs is to have *fun*, and if keeping that fun entails using a save state before an unreasonable bit, when failing it means 5-10 minutes of time wasted *each* attempt, I say go for it.

Last year, I played through Super Meat Boy. I got through every bit of the game, even if I did get past some stages easier with other characters. But there was a point that just broke me. This... mess... of a jump in the Skyscraper Warp Zone:

Like you with that podoboo jump, I did not feel in control there. I could do everything right, and still smash into that spiked wall. I don't know if my problem was related to the version of the game I had (maybe the physics were *ever* so slightly off in it), my controller, or just bad luck/not seeing something obvious, but for the life of me, I *could not* make that jump. I had to resort to downloading an invincibility mod *just* for that jump. Frankly, I find it amazing that in such a huge game, there was only that one single jump that I couldn't deal with. And that's how JUMP has been, really.

So. Yeah. Don't beat yourself up. You're an amazing SMW player. You just, like all of us, have your limits.

Blah blah. I don't know if I said anything worthwhile here, but I had to say *something*.

[Kilgamayan]

Quote from Jolpe from a year ago:

Pleeaaaase dont touch Depraved Stronghold, if you really want it easier I'll make it easier, but dont put stupid multimidpoints in that, that would destroy the level's purpose

This makes me wonder why a midpoint was included at all. <_<

[ano0maly]

Or, alternately, implies "make the player feel satisfied after doing something really really f'king hard."

The problem with that reasoning is that it sounds like an excuse to justify any very hard level even if the difficulty may not be well-designed. Sure there are times where I felt that way, satisfied and victorious, after beating a hard level. But other times I'm just relieved it's over and I don't want to return to it. Clearly there's more to consider here than just this.

When you decide to make a level harder by removing, or refusing to include, midpoints in a long level, you need a very good reason to justify it. It can easily become fake difficulty because you're not making individual parts or obstacles more difficult, but you're exhausting the player by laying them out in a long stretch. I want to refer back to this post from the S. Mario thread:

Marathon levels only work if you're allowed to make mistakes and not be forced to perfect every inch of the level.

For example, let's say you have 5 HP (perfectly possible in SMW) and you're on a really long level. If you ever manage to perfect the first half, than you'll have a much easier time on the later parts. You won't feel like you wasted your time on the first half of the level because playing it well gives you an advantage (instead of being a requirement) for the rest of the level. Contra is a very good example of this.

Basically any game that requires perfection should use very short levels or throw a hell of a lot of savepoints at you like in Super Meat Boy or I Wanna Be The Guy.

I think the marathon aspect would have worked better if there were fewer instant deaths. Replace some of the pits/lava with spike/muncher floors you can get out of, and add more mushrooms if needed.

BTW raocow: when you said "can you sneak in here", spinjumping over them timed the two Thwomps so that they drop and rise in left-to-right order. Maybe you could've sneaked underneath right then?

[Mata Hari]

'Jolly Upsetting Moving Podoboos' would've been better, as a title

[lolyoshi]

'Jolly Upsetting Moving Podoboos' would've been better, as a title

This should suffice.