DT3 - raocow and the game that ended

[Ivy]

I watched the first 20 or so episodes and this final one, and somehow still feel like I got the full experience

[Ignoritus]

Now if you want to know what I'm not ok with, it's Warmaster's character. Warmaster's character was really underdeveloped and then just kind of handwaved away. We know he wants to protect all bots and hates humans, but we never know WHY. Why has he concluded humans are such a threat? What pushed him to these extremes? Subconscious Filter only expanded intrigue as to his character by leaving some subtle hints about him as well as showing him to be an affable villain, concerned with achieving his goals but not outright spiteful. The logs before his battle showed a basic character arc for him and left him in a great place to be expanded on before and after his boss fight.

Then a lot of backtracking happened. First his affable character was undermined by the revelation that he was using the protagonists. His entire personality felt different to me in the cutscenes before and after his fight. He pretty much dropped all of the doubt he was displaying in the logs before hand about whether or not his course of action was right. In fact, whereas his logs before hand suggested that it was pretty much over for him to be able to do the right thing, the cutscene before his fight suggested he honestly had lost nothing from it all and was ready and able to proceed as planned. I much preferred the thought of him fighting from a position of despair where he knew that even if he won, he had already lost. In the end, Warmaster's entire character seemingly had not changed at all since the beginning of the game. The cutscene after the fight was just... nothing. A rather anti-climactic defeat where he congratulates them and dies. No pity for the noble-caused extremist, no meaningful last minute development, not even any backstory.

Then, in the post credits cutscene we are given all we need to know about Warmaster and all of his motives: he is that way because the program made him that way.

Not only is this the most... non-answer possible, but it actually also pretty much undermines the whole "bots rights" thing that was called into question the whole time. Because this answer pretty much boils down to: "well, the bots really don't have rights." You've stated the bots are locked into a specific programming and are incapable of moving beyond it, only (in a few select cases) 'reinterpreting' it which could only have a limited range of effect. It's like you're equating them to animals incapable of acting beyond their basic instinct.

That urks me far more than the ending honestly, because while the ending was a serious downer, it felt like it made sense as well as meshing well with the world that had been created. But Warmaster was just kind of 'there' in the end, and the comments in the epilogue about bots kind of undermine characters all the way back to the first game by implying that though they very much seemed to be learning and becoming sentient, they were nothing but chunks of code all along.



dat fight itself tho.
beautiful.

[jaxter0987]

In fact, whereas his logs before hand suggested that it was pretty much over for him to be able to do the right thing, the cutscene before his fight suggested he honestly had lost nothing from it all and was ready and able to proceed as planned.

The right thing being not the genocide of Humans but their isolation. The Warmaster had relinquished control of CHAOS. He had no power to stop Hex's plans for worldwide destruction. Until the protagonists did their thing. Now that the ONE obstacle that he could never overcome on his own is taken care of and the Warship is up for grabs, has he really lost anything towards his goal? Instead actually using the weapon of mass destruction, he's planning to use it as a deterrent. "Go isolate yourselves at this place which I've appointed otherwise face death."

Whether or not he was an affable character before the revelation is something I'm not well equipped to discuss. But his manipulation of the protagonists shouldn't come as a surprised given that he lead them out of the Subconscious Filter. What did he stand to gain from leading them out? It was clear from the beginning of the Filter that the protagonists weren't going to back down from trying to stop Hex's plans even after his attempts at persuasion. He could have left them their and convinced Hex to not use the Warship himself. Probably along the lines of "They're trapped there forever, there's no need to resort to such extremes." It was probably more likely that the protagonists would succeed in stopping Hex, given that he already sussed out Hex's dubious intentions.

[Stink Terios]

I finally understand.

Distorted Travesty is Homestuck. There, I said it.

[Ometeotl]

I finally understand.

Distorted Travesty is Homestuck. There, I said it.

Possibly the most insulting thing said about DT in this entire thread.

[metasomnia?]

I finally understand.

Distorted Travesty is Homestuck. There, I said it.

What exactly is it that you're getting at?

Homestuck ended on an entirely positive note, so I really don't understand the comparison.

[Grounder]

I finally understand.

Distorted Travesty is Homestuck. There, I said it.

What exactly is it that you're getting at?

Homestuck ended on an entirely positive note, so I really don't understand the comparison.

Both endings were incredibly disappointing in a narrative sense?

[Stink Terios]

I finally understand.

Distorted Travesty is Homestuck. There, I said it.

What exactly is it that you're getting at?

Homestuck ended on an entirely positive note, so I really don't understand the comparison.

Both endings were incredibly disappointing in a narrative sense?

This.
On the other hand, DT3's ending wasn't lazy, only bad.

[metasomnia?]

I finally understand.

Distorted Travesty is Homestuck. There, I said it.

What exactly is it that you're getting at?

Homestuck ended on an entirely positive note, so I really don't understand the comparison.

Both endings were incredibly disappointing in a narrative sense?

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. I mean, I get that trying to end something after a long time of doing nothing is difficult, but it still makes sense for Homestuck to end where it ended, and most of the loose ends were tied up. Furthermore, an epilogue is being worked on to answer the questions everyone still has. From what people were saying here, DT3's ending kinda came outta nowhere, or at least, it seemed out of character for the series itself.

[Ignoritus]

The right thing being not the genocide of Humans but their isolation. The Warmaster had relinquished control of CHAOS. He had no power to stop Hex's plans for worldwide destruction. Until the protagonists did their thing. Now that the ONE obstacle that he could never overcome on his own is taken care of and the Warship is up for grabs, has he really lost anything towards his goal? Instead actually using the weapon of mass destruction, he's planning to use it as a deterrent. "Go isolate yourselves at this place which I've appointed otherwise face death."

But that's ultimately my point. Warmaster was set up in those logs to have to face the consequences of his mistakes and grow from them, only for you to confront him and for him to be like "Oh nice, you solved that problem, thanks, back to everything going my way".

Whether or not he was an affable character before the revelation is something I'm not well equipped to discuss. But his manipulation of the protagonists shouldn't come as a surprised given that he lead them out of the Subconscious Filter. What did he stand to gain from leading them out? It was clear from the beginning of the Filter that the protagonists weren't going to back down from trying to stop Hex's plans even after his attempts at persuasion. He could have left them their and convinced Hex to not use the Warship himself. Probably along the lines of "They're trapped there forever, there's no need to resort to such extremes." It was probably more likely that the protagonists would succeed in stopping Hex, given that he already sussed out Hex's dubious intentions.

To be fair, it never struck me as he deliberately 'led' them out. He did actively attempt to flee from them and escape on his own, but they pursued. It struck me more as about halfway through he thought "Well, I'm not going to be able to lose them and we're all stuck here together. We may as well work for our mutual goals for the time being."

I suppose what's disappointing about it is that it set him up to be, despite crazed and extremist, somewhat reasonable. It created potential for him to grow and learn which was just ultimately never fulfilled or even really addressed. The whole time there was so much talk of how he was doing this for the good of bots, how he had no other choice, and all of that, but ultimately the game never really makes a message out of it. He learns nothing, the protagonists learn nothing, there are no evident consequences for his failure or the protagonists success in the context of the 'bots rights' issue. Basically no one grew as a character during or because of his character arc.

[Le Neveu de Rameau]

Now if you want to know what I'm not ok with, it's Warmaster's character. Warmaster's character was really underdeveloped and then just kind of handwaved away. [...] First his affable character was undermined by the revelation that he was using the protagonists. His entire personality felt different to me in the cutscenes before and after his fight. He pretty much dropped all of the doubt he was displaying in the logs before hand about whether or not his course of action was right. In fact, whereas his logs before hand suggested that it was pretty much over for him to be able to do the right thing, the cutscene before his fight suggested he honestly had lost nothing from it all and was ready and able to proceed as planned. I much preferred the thought of him fighting from a position of despair where he knew that even if he won, he had already lost. In the end, Warmaster's entire character seemingly had not changed at all since the beginning of the game. The cutscene after the fight was just... nothing. A rather anti-climactic defeat where he congratulates them and dies. No pity for the noble-caused extremist, no meaningful last minute development, not even any backstory.

I agree with you that the Warmaster is unfortunately underdeveloped, and I think the pre- and post-fight cutscenes could have been handled better, I think that in some ways the intent may have been exactly what you suggest. The pre-fight cutscene, at least, does sort of feel as though the Warmaster realizes he's gotten himself in way too deep and is desperately hoping that if he keeps trudging forward, he might actually be able to salvage something of what he was originally aiming for. The key, to me, seems to be the "Did we really ever have any alternatives?"/"Do I have any now?" exchange. He knows this is a terrible option, and that it was an entirely unforced error (allying with Hex) that brought him to this juncture, but as his only other choice would be to just give up and say, "WHELP, looks like a screwed the pooch massively and senseless wasted countless bot lives to achieve exactly bubkis, sucks to be me!", all he can do is keep proceeding as planned in the direction his locked himself into and hope he can at least manage to wrangle bupkis+1 out of it. Note that he asks the heroes several times if they're willing to back down, the last time being right before the fight (and in a way that makes it clear that he expects them to refuse). Why does he do that? Probably on the one hand because he's not really all that keen on more needless slaughter, but also, perhaps, to justify his own refusal to back down in his mind. In the end, he can tell himself, he did what anyone else would have done in his position.

As for the post-fight cutscene...yeah, I was hoping for a little more too. But I also sort of read it as his being relieved that if he has to fail, it's due to him being legitimately bested in combat by a superior opponent, rather than by making a stupid tactical error in whom he chooses to trust, or because he just plain gave up (and now the burden of making one of several bad choices is on someone else). Even if he's sentient and capable of complex self-reflection, the Warmaster is still a program, just like we're still animals. And while I was a bit confused about the wishy-washy non-explanations at the end, the impression that I got is that executing one's function is a very important motivating factor in bot psychology, just like our own physical needs are an important motivating factor in human psychology. An advanced, thinking bot like Hex or the Warmaster may interpret that in a very different way than its creator intended, but they can't just throw it away wholesale anymore than we can throw away our own fundamental drives. Our freedom of action is based on how we decide to deal with them.

And that's yet another reason why I think it would have been a good idea to bring the Warmaster back in the ending--it could help both give him some of the last-minute character development you mentioned as well as highlight the importance of executing your function in bot psychology in much more of a show-don't-tell manner than we actually got. But for us as for the Warmaster, things are as things are, not as we wish them to be, and this inscrutable fellow remained unscruted. On the other hand, feel free to write your doctoral thesis on bot psychology, as this is clearly a field where much more research is yet to be done.

[metasomnia?]

Now that the series is over and done with, is it weird to want someone to write fanfiction about it?

[BurntTenda]

What's the Warmaster's battle theme from?

[Telamon]

Now that the series is over and done with, is it weird to want someone to write fanfiction about it?

you haven't been paying attention to the youtube comments, have you?

[metasomnia?]

Now that the series is over and done with, is it weird to want someone to write fanfiction about it?

you haven't been paying attention to the youtube comments, have you?

Not really, no. I don't make a habit of looking at the comments mostly because of the rampant stupidity I usually find.

[Telamon]

Not really, no. I don't make a habit of looking at the comments mostly because of the rampant stupidity I usually find.

I don't blame you, but in this case what you missed is some sweet erotic fic about DT3 characters.

[Mikkofier]

Not really, no. I don't make a habit of looking at the comments mostly because of the rampant stupidity I usually find.

I don't blame you, but in this case what you missed is some sweet erotic fic about DT3 characters.

... if by "sweet" you mean disgusting and/or creepy

[ZephyrBurst]

Now that the series is over and done with, is it weird to want someone to write fanfiction about it?

you haven't been paying attention to the youtube comments, have you?

Not really, no. I don't make a habit of looking at the comments mostly because of the rampant stupidity I usually find.

It started innocent enough and then went too... places. He has moved on to commenting on Big Fish Legend, but without the rising creepy factor.

[Grounder]

It started innocent enough and then went too... places. He has moved on to commenting on Big Fish Legend, but without the rising creepy factor.

Give him time.

[NegativeZeroZ]

What's the Warmaster's battle theme from?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3pNhqFo6i4

[ACesspoolofHatred]

It started innocent enough and then went too... places. He has moved on to commenting on Big Fish Legend, but without the rising creepy factor.

apparently he hated Jerry and Claire dying so much that he wrote fanfiction about raocow being their unborn fetus child

[Alice]

apparently he hated Jerry and Claire dying so much that he wrote fanfiction about raocow being their unborn fetus child

That's kinda disturbing. How can an unborn fetus play video games? Let alone recording them for Youtube.

[Telamon]

apparently he hated Jerry and Claire dying so much that he wrote fanfiction about raocow being their unborn fetus child

That's kinda disturbing. How can an unborn fetus play video games? Let alone recording them for Youtube.

Yeah, you might as well suggest that a cat and a rat could be friends.

[metasomnia?]

I don't blame you, but in this case what you missed is some sweet erotic fic about DT3 characters.

apparently he hated Jerry and Claire dying so much that he wrote fanfiction about raocow being their unborn fetus child

Uh o_O;

You know, when I said writing fanfiction, I meant a more pleasant kind for general audiences. Not something that... creative.

[ACesspoolofHatred]

I don't blame you, but in this case what you missed is some sweet erotic fic about DT3 characters.

apparently he hated Jerry and Claire dying so much that he wrote fanfiction about raocow being their unborn fetus child

Uh o_O;

You know, when I said writing fanfiction, I meant a more pleasant kind for general audiences. Not something that... creative.

eh, it's neither the weirdest thing i've seen nor the weirdest thing i've personally been involved in myself, so i'm not too fazed

but there's probably a better avenue for that stuff than youtube comments