DT3 - raocow and the game that ended

[raocow]

wow.

so nightmare gate 8th, huh. it's something.

It won't air until tomorrow evening but.

it's something.

[kitikami]

The last nightmare gate is by far the most nightmarish. It really does give new meaning to the moniker.

On another note, I don't remember the flashback about Jeremy's fighting game competition from Robin's LP. I went back and watched that episode, and it looks like it's really not there (or I'm just looking in the wrong spot), so either that was added later or a glitch prevented it from loading (the Warmaster did glitch out during the chase sequence right before that, so maybe it had something to do with that).

[ZephyrBurst]

Man, I swear those breaks in reality did like 27 damage to me when I went through this are. Did you nerf them to allow for one more "mistake" Zephyr?

I did! Though I can't remember when that happened, it was quite some time ago though and it wasn't noted in the public patch notes. I believe at release, they had 28 power which was later reduced to 20.

[Lostsoldier20]

wow.

so nightmare gate 8th, huh. it's something.

It won't air until tomorrow evening but.

it's something.

Oh. Well. I was expecting you'd end up doing Magical Castle before backtracking to Nightmare H. You're a bit closer to one of the special episode 0 bosses than I thought then...

Also for those wondering how long until raocow beats the game, Post-Nightmare H video:
I'd estimate around 20 videos left on the higher end. Progress may end up being faster/slower than this though, but I attempted to make room for error when it comes to raocow stopping for flavor reasons, or just tough rooms.

My breakdown for those interested:

2 for [ispoiler]The Abomination[/ispoiler]
5-7 for magical castle + [ispoiler]shmup section[/ispoiler] (I don't remember the length of castle too well, so this may be a bit too high)
2 for [ispoiler]Hex[/ispoiler]
2-3 for [ispoiler]Warmaster[/ispoiler]
6-8 episodes for Warship

[Xirix]

Iunno, I'm quite liking the darker more serious tone the game's taking, the silly jokiness is great too but even most comedy TV shows and the like have the odd super serious or emotionally charged episode.

[Le Neveu de Rameau]

Jeez, the ASMT forest theme sound weird sped up.

[NegativeZeroZ]

I've seen a lot of comparisons to other less than stellar attempts at a tonal shift, but no suggestions on how Zephyr could have done it better, so forgive me if my takeaway from that is something along the lines of "uwaah, the game is different now!" How is 60-70 hours of setup sudden and uncalled for? Jak 2 did a complete tone reversal in the opening cutscene. The opening cutscene, and people let them get away with it, because the game was fun. Well, fair enough if you think the tonal shift comes with a difficulty spike that ruins the game for you, but I find the comparisons to "Newgrounds gore" ridiculous. The character deaths are done tastefully and for the same reason DT's story does anything, to move the player from Point A to Point B. Or in this case, Point ZX to ZY, but that's another argument entirely.

The Nightmare Gate... it's not fun. It just isn't. Whether this is its strength, or a fault of the game, depends on what you look for in games. If you want escapism, you want fun 100% of the time. If you think games can be more than just a waste of time, maybe you'll see it differently.

I'll say more about it when the video goes up, instead of writing in spoiler tags this time.

[Count Mohawk]

For those who have beaten the game: anybody else notice that the ring thingies surrounding Bubblun and friends

were later reused as Swap Deterrents? I found it neat that the game mechanic that goes with those was subtly foreshadowed by the cutscene here - in that they go right through Jeremy's Water Shield barrier.

[Mikkofier]

...comparisons to "Newgrounds gore"...

As the only one to make a reference to Newgrounds in this thread I feel the need to clarify that I wasn't reminded of Newgrounds because of gore (which there aren't any in this case), but by the presentation of Kirby's death. It brought to mind those dumb animations that I remembered there being a lot of on that site back in the day, where random characters get killed for no particular reason. Not saying that there wasn't a reason in this case, I just found the scene unintentionally funny.
"We need to go save Kirby!"
"Oh there's Kirby!"
*Kirby's unceremoniously stabbed by floating knife, dies instantly*
"...crap."

[Dark Hunter]

Also [Nightmare Gate H] is... important to ZephyrBurst.

If it isn't insensitive of me to ask: why? That Gate always seemed kind of tangential to the main game to me, plotwise, so I've always wondered why it was included, what purpose it serves.

Or should we have this discussion after the Gate has actually aired on Youtube?

[jaxter0987]

Dang it raocow, you just had to take the most roundabout way to get to the Magical Castle... after uncorking a shortcut from the Highlands.... And you didn't even check the heart requirement of the Nightmare Gate before ending the video, which could have caused even more hype from those viewers that haven't played the game.

Why do you do this raocow...?
(Rhetorical question, in case it wasn't clear)

The Nightmare Gate... it's not fun. It just isn't. Whether this is its strength, or a fault of the game, depends on what you look for in games. If you want escapism, you want fun 100% of the time. If you think games can be more than just a waste of time, maybe you'll see it differently.

I'll say more about it when the video goes up, instead of writing in spoiler tags this time.

I'm looking forward to your response. I'm firmly seated on the latter. I think Anime, Manga, or any medium of entertainment really, can be more than just a waste of time. Sure, there are those "nonsense" entertainment that exists purely for the viewer to be entertained, but there's definitely more than just that.

Without quoting NZZ's post again...

It wasn't sudden either... Things started taking darker turns when we found out what was REALLY happening to the classic video game heroes through X's revelation. Yes there were still happy go lucky times and a small break of nonsense in Gate 6 but afterwards, everything was heading south for good.

I posted that preemptively because I KNEW there were people that didn't like the tone shift but where are the people claiming that its sudden? I guess I don't pay attention to youtube comments or something, since I usually watch the videos as soon as they're up.

Also [Nightmare Gate H] is... important to ZephyrBurst.

If it isn't insensitive of me to ask: why? That Gate always seemed kind of tangential to the main game to me, plotwise, so I've always wondered why it was included, what purpose it serves.

Or should we have this discussion after the Gate has actually aired on Youtube?

Seems to me its definitely something that should be discussed after the fact if even then. raocow already knows since he's already played it but the Nightmare Gate is a thing.

Completely unrelated but I wanted to comment on it considering whats coming up in the Nightmare Gate. One of Mikkofier's animated Avatars is Uboa. I have a completely irrational fear of Uboa...

[NegativeZeroZ]

Also [Nightmare Gate H] is... important to ZephyrBurst.

If it isn't insensitive of me to ask: why?

This has been debunked. Zephyr planned at one point to have a section in the game be "about" him in some way, but he decided against it.

It may or may not be something Zephyr finds personally more "nightmarish" than most others, but it has nothing to do with his personal life.

Without quoting NZZ's post again...

It wasn't sudden either... Things started taking darker turns when we found out what was REALLY happening to the classic video game heroes through X's revelation. Yes there were still happy go lucky times and a small break of nonsense in Gate 6 but afterwards, everything was heading south for good.

I posted that preemptively because I KNEW there were people that didn't like the tone shift but where are the people claiming that its sudden? I guess I don't pay attention to youtube comments or something, since I usually watch the videos as soon as they're up.

It's not so much something people are saying openly as I saw an implied criticism. The more ungraceful "dark and edgy" turns are random and undeserved, and serve as pretty good indicators that a story is jumping the shark. When executed poorly, it's a cheap tactic to try and make your story memorable. You have to work for a dark turn, let it simmer, not just drop it in because "dark scene" is part of a memorable story paint-by-numbers. I think this game foreshadowed it for quite long enough, since people who have been paying attention picked up on it.

[Stink Terios]

As someone who believes games are more than just a waste of time, the final nightmare gate sure was an immense waste of time.

As for the tonal shift it was certainly gradual. Hell, it started in DT2. But I kept playing through the game I kept getting less and less compelled by the story, and then the Nightmare Gate. Oof.

Games can certainly be dark and serious while being engaging, but when DT3 is trying to be serious AT BEST it makes me groan. At worst... well, I'm yet to get started.

[ano0maly]

As someone who believes games are more than just a waste of time, the final nightmare gate sure was an immense waste of time.

I wanted to wait until tomorrow but I gotta speak up here because I feel that my hand is getting forced.

I would like you to elaborate on why you think it was a waste of time. But I suspect that it's because there's very little gameplay as you know it. But see, you can't look at this gate expecting the same Megaman X-like gameplay. It's supposed to represent a different type of games altogether and once you realize that, you need to treat it as one.

I would like to wait until tomorrow's video and let ZephyrBurst himself explain the meaning of this gate if he wanted to, but I mentioned that the gate is important to him because understanding it could help appreciate it.

[ZephyrBurst]

For those that haven't played the game, the bit below is about the upcoming nightmare gate, so skip it till tomorrow if you don't want any spoilers.

There was some miscommunication on my part. The original concept for the last nightmare gate was about things that I (as in the real me) fear. That was scrapped though and I wanted it to instead be about one of the characters. It was never going to be a DT styled platform hell like most probably thought though. That said, what happens in said nightmare gate, including some things being said, are almost word for word from something not in my life, but from someone related to me when they were growing up. There's a few DT character specifics, but most of those events are very much based on someone else.

People not liking it for any reason is fine. It's understandable too. It's quite a departure from what DT does, even in these last few chapters.

[TaviTurnip]

Confirmed, The Master was a Red Arremer all along :1

[Ignoritus]

Brick Joke level: maximum.


Anyways, I'm really cool with how the plot has turned. I don't think it's too sudden at all, and I think it's something DT actually does incredibly well: manipulating the players emotions in a way that integrates with gameplay. It genuinely gives a sense of urgency and outrage, and further hypes eventually fighting and defeating the antagonists.

[ZephyrBurst]

The falling Spider Drone was added about 2 days ago due to your comment, Ignoritus.

[Ignoritus]

The falling Spider Drone was added about 2 days ago due to your comment, Ignoritus.

I am proud to have contributed to a fantastically overstretched brick joke.

[maou shoujo]

I am greatly enjoying this game's plot, because it's basically a sprite comic in playable form. Admit it: back in the day, there were a whole lot of us who read Bob and George, or 8-Bit Theater , or some other cheesy sprite comic whose original characters became melodramatic at some point. It has been a long time since I could take any of those seriously, but this game hits me right in that nostalgia point. Every day I find myself looking forward to another video to see where it goes.

[Money]

I'm actually really enjoying the plot right now. This might sound a bit dickish towards the earlier story, but it's nice to have things being an immediate threat, rather than some vague nebulous "if we don't do this, BAD THING will happen" that never actually feels like a pressing issue that impacts the world in a meaningful way. It's doing the whole "incorporating plot into the gameplay" thing really well, giving the player a sense of real anxiety when it wants just by messing with what they're used to.

[NegativeZeroZ]

[Yeah BUT, the story still sucks.]

ok.

Admit it: back in the day, there were a whole lot of us who read Bob and George

Me me me me! =D

[Stink Terios]

As someone who believes games are more than just a waste of time, the final nightmare gate sure was an immense waste of time.

I wanted to wait until tomorrow but I gotta speak up here because I feel that my hand is getting forced.

I would like you to elaborate on why you think it was a waste of time. But I suspect that it's because there's very little gameplay as you know it. But see, you can't look at this gate expecting the same Megaman X-like gameplay. It's supposed to represent a different type of games altogether and once you realize that, you need to treat it as one.

I would like to wait until tomorrow's video and let ZephyrBurst himself explain the meaning of this gate if he wanted to, but I mentioned that the gate is important to him because understanding it could help appreciate it.

It's not scary, It's not tense, It's not engaging, and feels like a cheap way to give unneeded backstory to a character.
Granted, I don't like the horror genre in general but there could be something, ANYTHING to make this interesting. As it is, it's slow, plodding, boring and hackneyed. But the worst part is that it's required for 100% completion.

What I'm saying is a *something* that would allow you to skip this sequence would be greatly appreciated because I'm surely going to replay this good as hell game several times in the future but would love to avoid having to throw half an entire play session in the trash.

Also, while there is some value to the concept of video games as coping for a shitty life, it shouldn't be presented in a way that makes you go "Oh, I get it. NOW GET ON WITH IT."

[ano0maly]

It's not scary, It's not tense, It's not engaging, and feels like a cheap way to give unneeded backstory to a character.
Granted, I don't like the horror genre in general but there could be something, ANYTHING to make this interesting. As it is, it's slow, plodding, boring and hackneyed. But the worst part is that it's required for 100% completion.

What I'm saying is a *something* that would allow you to skip this sequence would be greatly appreciated because I'm surely going to replay this good as hell game several times in the future but would love to avoid having to throw half an entire play session in the trash.

Also, while there is some value to the concept of video games as coping for a shitty life, it shouldn't be presented in a way that makes you go "Oh, I get it. NOW GET ON WITH IT."

Completely disagree with you.

I found the atmosphere of the gate tense enough. I was quite engaged with what the gate was going for; as soon as I passed through that first unlocked door and the music started playing, I immediately reacted in realization: "RPG Maker".

I found the gate itself interesting for what it is. I don't think it needs a 'something' as if it can't stand on its own, because I appreciate these kinds of exploration games (both horror and non-horror) that are story-driven and express the vibe through the background. The type of games that vgperson regularly makes translations.

And why would it be skippable? It's a demonstration of a type of video game, just like the Bubble Bobble section, Metal Slug section, turret defense section, stealth section, and Space Invaders section. Personal preference on whether you like or dislike a section shouldn't dictate what is skippable.

I just had to speak up because the way you put it sounds like "this gate is trash, Zephyr should scrap the whole thing" when you're not aware of what the place means personally to the creator.

[Lostsoldier20]

And so now it has been seen. I expect a floor of posts to compile into a giant wall of text of different opinions, so here's mine.

Zephyr is really good with moments of fear. I mentioned before about the moment where the Warship gets activated. We see just how screwed we are at the moment, and we're sent into a "game over disabled" area. For a moment, I was afraid, until I realized there was no real danger. But for just a moment, it got me.

Nightmare H, the literal nightmare, got me for a moment too. The lack of music, the slow movement and removal of all abilities, and the silence of everything else too. Even before meeting "mother," I was afraid what the next door would hold. I immediately started hiding in ever single spot available, because I didn't know what was going to pop out. I was afraid. And then the notes make it worse. The atmosphere is choking, and we have Claire's own words of fear. When we finally hear that "Claire, are you there?" clip, I had chills.

For that moment up until the reveal. I had fear. But just like the moment in the snow base, it's a one time trick. I remained a bit scared until I got back into Claire's room again. Then the gameplay pattern started looping, and fear turned into mere impatience. If I could immediately leave my safe spot after she passed and would chase me, I would, just to go faster. That's the other big problem is; the gameplay isn't that good. Maybe it's the limitations of 2D, but it just doesn't feel fun. But maybe that's the intention. The situation isn't fun. Claire isn't hiding because it is fun, so neither should you. Either way, it just isn't that fun.

So yeah. I love the idea, love the atmosphere, and love the backstory creation. It just gets old to play fast, and is not made for second playthroughs.

Also, I'd like to say, I find it great raocow failed the "hold right to win" section. A bit of levity for a very dark episode. That aside, I'd like to read his extended thoughts on this, if he can even articulate it. I've had months to think the gate through. I don't blame him if he can't put it into words.