raocow's talkhaus

I'm really not feeling this hack overall, and this isn't just a kneejack response from today's video. I felt like it was finally time to express my thoughts on the hack so far. Certain parts have been grating on me for a while now. There's definitely some good stuff in here like the puzzling ghost house themes and since I haven't been following SMW hacking much lately it's been a pleasant surprise to see how advanced music porting and sampling has become shown off in the hack. Graphics have been hit or miss for me but that's mostly just my opinion on if I like how something looks so I won't go into detail unless someone wants me to. I'd rather focus on stuff I haven't like that I think is more objective.

I feel this way about a lot of hacks but I don't know why there need to be so many spikes and munchers in these levels. Like in Vine Climb for example, there are solitary munchers sitting around that aren't particularly dangerous but serve to restrict the player's safe spots, adding yet another thing they have to watch out for as they avoid bullets and move fast enough to catch the next moving lift. Spikes have been very prevalent in this hack overall and I always feel like they're cheap difficulty. They have a place in level design, but I feel they're more useful lining the bottom of a pit as a jump failure penalty instead of restricting movement in a hallway, causing the player to duck-jump through tight situations. Learning when to use them as a legitimate source of danger is hard to do. I just think it's more impressive when you manage to increase the danger to the player by having interesting and difficult enemy setups. The classic low->high->low hopping Koopas is a great example of a challenging enemy setup. As a player, a setup like that is much more satisfying to get past than another tight squeeze past some arbitrarily placed spikes.

Next, I think we've seen it illustrated here pretty well that there's a big shortage of safe 1ups in this hack. It's a difficult hack overall but there's just not enough 1ups to save the player the danger of a Game Over. We could get into the argument about why 1ups and Game Overs exist nowadays but since they're in this hack let's skip that and instead just talk about ways that this shortage could have been fixed. The obvious answer is to just place more 1ups or coins but they also have to be accessible to the player. If there's a decent chance the player will die getting the 1up, there's no point in collecting it and you may as well have not even bothered placing the 1up in the first place. The Bonus Game for getting 100 Stars is a great source of 1ups but the randomized goal tape, while interesting at first, has shown to be a real pain when trying to consistently get those large numbers of stars, meaning that you can't count on getting to the Bonus Game in a consistent manner. Compare this to vanilla SMW and most other hacks where you could get to the game after about 3-5 levels.

Similar to 1ups, I feel like there's a shortage of powerups in some levels, or the first powerup is placed further into the level than it really should be. The first mushroom really shouldn't be more than 2 or 3 screens away from the start of the level, and should be closer to screen 1 as the game gets harder. If you're going to make the platforming difficult, you have to find a good balance of dispensing powerups. I find an average of 2-3 powerups on each side of the midpoint is a good balance, maybe 4 on each side if the difficulty or level length is high. Like 1ups though, they have to be accessible without huge risk of dying or taking a hit for them because if it's too hard to get a powerup without taking damage, there's no point in trying to get it. As an aside, this game treats capes as rare powerups probably because we all think about them being super-broken but I haven't really noticed any places in the hack where you could break the game in two by having cape floating or flight. It's not a big deal, but something I noticed.

Those dungeons give good hints but those ghost enemies look like they're REALLY buggy and unfair. Their hitbox doesn't seem to match their graphics and their ability to home in you and turn around instantly make them look cheap. I think they push you around once you take damage too.

There's probably some other stuff but I think this covers the major non-graphical complaints I have with the hack.

FirePhoenix wrote:I'm really not feeling this hack overall, and this isn't just a kneejack response from today's video. I felt like it was finally time to express my thoughts on the hack so far. Certain parts have been grating on me for a while now. There's definitely some good stuff in here like the puzzling ghost house themes and since I haven't been following SMW hacking much lately it's been a pleasant surprise to see how advanced music porting and sampling has become shown off in the hack. Graphics have been hit or miss for me but that's mostly just my opinion on if I like how something looks so I won't go into detail unless someone wants me to. I'd rather focus on stuff I haven't like that I think is more objective.

Maybe I'm just not remembering the first two correctly but so far this one as a whole feels kinda less polished than the first two.

hese levels are slowly getting harder. I've still mostly like them thouhg. The enemy placement and design looks pretty clever. Also got to hear that song again.

"It's poetry, George Lucas would be proud."

Was that a reference to the clip they showed off a bunch in the Plinkett Star Wars prequel reviews? Cause that's kinda great.

Alice wrote: Maybe I'm just not remembering the first two correctly but so far this one as a whole feels kinda less polished than the first two.

I seem to recall MGU2 being well received here when he played it.

Ah, Chain Chomps and The Angry Sun, two enemies which were vulnerable to shells in SMB3, yet were mysteriously* made nigh-invincible for their respective SMW editions. Also Nipper Plants, which fire was the best method of dealing with in SMB3, yet which have been mysteriously made fireproof for SMW (but then again on of the original SMW's central philosophies is apparently that fire should always be less useful than the the cape, so this is in tune with this). Earlier we also had Boss Bass, who as noted has had his vulnerabilities to both fire and shells removed for SMW. Are we sensing a pattern concerning the porting of SMB3 enemies to SMW...?


* This is arguably a reasonably approach to take for the Angry Sun, as in most instances other than here, there's only one in a level, and it usually serves as the main gimmick for the level, which making it comparatively easy to destroy tends to break^†. But there's no excuse for the invulnerable Chain Chomps.

† On the other hand, I once saw a list of Mario's accomplishments in life which included "killing the sun", and it seems a shame to try to deny him this illustrious feat...

well you see the author took the time to port this sprite to the game, and people can't appreciate the work it took if they can just kill it easily, you know ?

hi, i've been performing ascetic training by catching up on the first two games in the series and boy howdy does mgu2 look like a pain la pain in the butt la butt sometimes, with the dumb yoshi shenanigans and some baffling design decisions w/r/t midpointing and level length.

edit: also turbo big boo is insanely garbage

Honestly, this game seems very, Rudely designed, for lack of a better word. (an invincible chain chomp sitting at a ledge that takes a full running jump to get up to sound familiar?)

Like it's not kaizo level or anything, but theres just part in the level design that seem to be there for "This will frustrate the player" moments than actual meaningful level design. Such as how a lot of the ledges in vine climb required a running jump, even though the platforms you had to jump from were small, and in most cases, also fell when stood on (those grey ones)

Also the lack of powerups, while this romhack is a lot better with giving powerups than some hacks i've seen, its just rude to ask a player to do pretty challenging things, while also asking them to do it perfectly. Idk its just my personal opinion but not giving powerups just seems like fake difficulty to me. By not adding any challenge to the game by adding unique and interesting enemy placement or platforming, but by making the player do the alright or even mediocre enemy challenges and platforming perfectly.

Same with the lack of 1-ups, this game is hard enough as it is, and just losing progress in a single level, and having to re-do potentially really hard segments seems punishment enough for a death penalty. I know 1-ups are in the base game and cant be easily removed, but because of how scarcely smw saves its game, a game over is a HUGE setback when trying to play this game; so having a steady source of 1-ups is almost necessary*.

Also muncher and spike spam, I didn't even notice it until I saw FirePhoenix mention it, but this game really does love just making basic platforming challenges and then tossing munchers all over it. Mixed with 1 tile jumps over spikes to make it even more challenging; and with the lack of powerups getting hit by a spike is almost always death, as if it were just lava there.

Man I ranted a lot, I mean this hack still looks fun, and I haven't seen the first 2 mario gives up hacks either so I don't have them for reference. But this feels like trying to make a mario game thats harder than the Official Baby Ones, but making it hard in the wrong way, leaving a bitter taste in your mouth.

*while I do believe that lives systems aren't completely dead, and could still be done properly. Mario games really don't do it properly.

I feel i worded this badly but Shrugs

God forbid a game asks a player to actually display some mastery of its gameplay mechanics, or to learn how to deal with new ones (especially a romhack, which is by default designed for players already experienced with the base product, and which is currently in its endgame no less.)

I think some people complaining here are in for a rude awakening if/when raocow goes on with his stated plan of playing VIP2 and then JUMP, which are going to be genuine tests of game knowledge, endurance and frustration management.


On another note, and pardon me if my genuine curiosity comes of as rude, but I do find it somewhat bewildering that the same raocow who once upon a time went through almost all of S.Mario without tools could get so quickly frustrated on a fairly basic level like the vine climb one (even more so considering that most world 8 levels afterward were way harder.) Maybe it has to do with expectations? A game like S.Mario makes it pretty clear to the player that it's a trial-and-error marathon afterall.

mixture of expectation and... not being used to this anymore, really, haha. I'm a lot more coddled on the smbx side of things.

cozyduck wrote:God forbid a game asks a player to actually display some mastery of its gameplay mechanics, or to learn how to deal with new ones (especially a romhack, which is by default designed for players already experienced with the base product, and which is currently in its endgame no less.)

I think some people complaining here are in for a rude awakening if/when raocow goes on with his stated plan of playing VIP2 and then JUMP, which are going to be genuine tests of game knowledge, endurance and frustration management.

I'm not familiar with what JUMP is but in regards to VIP2 kicking our teeth in I think the big difference between difficulty complaints in MGU3 and difficulty complaints in VIP2 is that VIP2 is MUCH older a romhack, not to mention it's also a Japanese hack. I'm not trying to say its extreme difficulty is forgiven by those reasons but more that MGU3 is a product of today's hacking standards, not the standards of 5+ years ago. Some of the failings in this hack feel like things that could have easily been ironed out with today's technology, like some of these weird and inconsistent custom sprite interactions.

There's a difference between mastery of mechanics and difficult for the sake of difficult. I think MGU3 falls into the latter category more often than not. The Chomp level was a perfect example of that and also a good example of weird custom sprites. I'm pretty sure those chain chomp sprites are the same ones that have existed in SMWC's custom sprites files for years and years now. Actual SMB3 chomp lunges less frequently and randomly than the SMW custom sprite one. It makes me wonder if there's really no "fairer" custom Chomp sprite. Same goes for the Boss Bass sprite and its poorly paletted, fireproof nature.

I'd also argue that if you're making a mastery hack, let the player save after every level or still provide them with enough 1ups so that people playing legitimately don't have to replay a hard level or three to get back to where they were if they Game Over. That's just being polite to the player.

I feel like using these already existing sprites is not really the fault of the designer of the hack. Sure, they are flawed and could be vastly improved, but not everyone has the knowledge to do so. I guess you could just not use them, but at the same time I appreciate the variation in the levels these custom sprites are providing
I'm also not really understanding your point on "difficult for the sake of being difficult" - surely by world 8 hacks are supposed to be difficult? What exactly is the problem when the designer says "yeah, I'm going to make a difficult level"?

There's a difference between mastery of mechanics and difficult for the sake of difficult.

Is there really though? If I want to make a level that requires the player to be a "master of mechanics" (whatever that entails), by definition I'm going to make a difficult level for the sake of making a difficult level

I agree that the custom sprites are not ideal and that there can be a feeling of "fake difficulty" because of that, but I don't entirely blame the author for it and I don't agree that the whole hack is flawed because of it

... also yeah, if people are saying that this is too hard and/or too unfair, VIP2 & JUMP are going to be a thing aren't they

I definitely don't think this game is unfair but I just flat-out don't have any time for lives systems in games any more

I'm not familiar with what JUMP is but in regards to VIP2 kicking our teeth in I think the big difference between difficulty complaints in MGU3 and difficulty complaints in VIP2 is that VIP2 is MUCH older a romhack, not to mention it's also a Japanese hack. I'm not trying to say its extreme difficulty is forgiven by those reasons but more that MGU3 is a product of today's hacking standards, not the standards of 5+ years ago.

Why should the age of the hack, or whether it is japanese or not, matter? Why is extreme difficulty something to be "forgiven"? What are those "modern standards" that hacks are supposed to abide to and who decided on them? You? Me? raocow? SMWC? The Talkhaus? Different games are designed for different people with different preferences, and this also applies to romhacks. So it's certainly fair for you to say that things in a hack don't fit with your personal preference, but I disagree with attemps to paint the game as objectively bad simply because it doesn't fit in with a preconceived nebulous notion of "standard 2015 romhack" that you (or I) may have.

I will admit that you have a point with the chain chomps though, because their random nature is an objective fact. However, even if the game showered the player with a powerup before every instance of a chain chomp, thus rendering them completely insignificant, they would still remain an inherently bad obstacle, regardless of the difficulty of the level. I feel that it is important to separate these things when debating the games design.

I do not, however, share your view on boss bass at all. The entire point of the boss bass level is to require the player to manage the timing of his jumps properly around the boss bass movement patterns. To kill the boss bass would be mostly equivalent to using a cape to fly over a level and therefore completely breaking it. Now granted, doing such a thing is possible in the original SMW, but I can absolutely understand if a designer wants the player to actually play his level, otherwise the level might as well be completely omitted.

Ryrir wrote:Is there really though? If I want to make a level that requires the player to be a "master of mechanics" (whatever that entails), by definition I'm going to make a difficult level for the sake of making a difficult level

I feel there is a big difference between "master of mechanics" design and "difficult for being difficult" design.

Like with lack of powerups, is more of a latter one, as instead of having to make any meaningful design choices, and enemy placement to really test your skill at the game mechanics. It instead can just make a semi-difficult level, but punish any sort of mistake with restarting it all.

And things like the chain chomps are more luck than anything, theres no way to tell when they'll jump, and how fast they'll jump, meaning unless you are really lucky they are just glorified powerup filters (if you even have one at that point)

Though I feel i should say while i did make a Big Post ranting about this game I don't hate it at all, or feel this hack is Truly The Hardest And Therefore Bad. I just felt like the good things about it don't need to be said, as they already have (or they speak for themselves.) And my ranting doesnt apply to the entire game (some levels do give plenty of powerups.)

Idk i'm repeating myself here, but hey video games, they're fun right

cozyduck wrote:I do not, however, share your view on boss bass at all. The entire point of the boss bass level is to require the player to manage the timing of his jumps properly around the boss bass movement patterns. To kill the boss bass would be mostly equivalent to using a cape to fly over a level and therefore completely breaking it.

Unlike the Angry Sun (which stays down when it goes down, legitimately breaking the gimmick), Bass Boss traditionally respawns a few seconds after being killed, so defeating it doesn't remove the threat, it simply gives the player a bit of breathing space for a moment. And that breathing space has a fairly significant psychological effect of the player, as it feels as they have, at least in the right circumstances, a little more control over their environment, a few more possible ways of dealing with the obstacles the game throws at them, an ability to punch back on occasion. And that's precisely the difference between feeling like you're being challenged and feeling like you're just being assaulted. Feeling as though you are, to a reasonable degree, in control of your experience, rather than just being shooed through an obstacle course where each obstacle has but a single correct solution, is one of the key elements separating enjoyable difficulty from the sort that grinds you down to a shiny, useless nub. Which is why "no killing this, no bypassing that", though OK as an occasional way to shake things up, is generally frowned upon as a consistent strategy.

raocow's initial reaction to the Angry Sun coming out of the moon was pretty good. Too bad Roo doesn't animate anymore (and nobody else took the torch).

I've been thinking of an idea for a SMBX episode: lives will be pretty uncommon, but not rare to get, and I'll put in plenty of opportunities to get them through combos (like shell ad jump kills), maybe a bonus level her and there. BUT, when you complete a world and move onto the next, you can't go back (until maybe world 7 of 8).
ASMBXT 2 kinda did that as well, once you chose a world, you were stuck there and couldn't return to the hub, until you beat it.

Le Neveu de Rameau wrote:
Unlike the Angry Sun (which stays down when it goes down, legitimately breaking the gimmick), Bass Boss traditionally respawns a few seconds after being killed, so defeating it doesn't remove the threat, it simply gives the player a bit of breathing space for a moment.

I didn't remember that! In that case, I agree that such an implementation of a big boss sprite would be more interesting then the one we have now.

dr_kraid wrote:I definitely don't think this game is unfair

I don't either.

Sure, no hack is perfect, and I've already seen a few flaws, both in the level design and in the sprites used. That being said, I actually think this is the best of the MGUs by a long shot. I was actually really surprised that Vine Climb gave raocow so much trouble - other people who commented on the video even insulted the level as well, but aside from one or two jumps, nothing really seemed out of the ordinary. It wasn't even that long (in fact, this is one of cyphermur9t's strong points - he knows when to end a level). To each their own I guess, but I think this has been a well above average hack so far.

Unless there's some patently obvious reason for this to not be the case, which raocow got but I didn't, I'd propose the other Special level is accessed from Dino Valley's secret exit?

nah that's probably it, I'm just a dummy

So in response to the mentioning yesterday of how few 1-up there are in this game, I crunched some numbers and figured out how the game would expect you to play it going purely off lives you get from bonus games.

The stars the bonus gate gives you are randomized, and assuming the author didn't touch the distribution of the star possibilities you can get from breaking the tape, you should have the possibilities of getting 1-30, 40, or 50 stars, and I'm assuming all have equal chance.

The sum of 1-30 + 40 + 50 = 545
545 / 32 possibilities = 17.03125 (average bonus stars at the end of each level)
100 (total stars to get bonus game) / 17.03125 ~= 5.87

So we'll round up and say it takes about 6 bonus tapes before you get a bonus game, meaning the amount of lives you get in the bonus game are expected to last you about 6 levels.

I think I did that math right.

cozyduck wrote:Why should the age of the hack, or whether it is japanese or not, matter? Why is extreme difficulty something to be "forgiven"? What are those "modern standards" that hacks are supposed to abide to and who decided on them? You? Me? raocow? SMWC? The Talkhaus? Different games are designed for different people with different preferences, and this also applies to romhacks. So it's certainly fair for you to say that things in a hack don't fit with your personal preference, but I disagree with attemps to paint the game as objectively bad simply because it doesn't fit in with a preconceived nebulous notion of "standard 2015 romhack" that you (or I) may have.

Standards between today and 5+ years ago have definitely changed for hacks. Remember when item-babysitting was acceptable and encouraged? How about floating munchers? What about super long levels like in Super Mario Infinity 1 & 2? This one's more subjective but for a long time "Tails155 geometry" was all the rage aesthetically. For a while, expecting players to use savestates while playing was acceptable too. Communities and individuals hold different views on what is acceptable for hacks to do and those views come together to form the "standards" by which hacks are judged. It's not a very scientific process but they definitely change over time to reflect what's going on in the community. The hacks I made 7 years ago would not fit today's standards (or my own personal ones) at all but were acceptable at the time because they were a reflection of how the community viewed hacks back then.

If it sounds like I'm being harsh on MGU3 it's because I see numerous small things that I feel if changed would make the experience better. Fewer "gotcha" moments like that final offscreen firebar after the falling bone platform would be nice. Less spikes and munchers would be better because all they do is make your jumps more difficult but not in a fun way. (I felt like The Big Race did a well enough job being difficult just from its enemy placement and the only thing the munchers added was to make some jumps to the pipes really awkward.)



Unrelated to standards chat, I did really like the secret exit in the last level today. I'm never sure how to feel about having to get something from the first half of a level to use in the second half but it wasn't too bad here. It was really clever how you had to use the P-Switch there to turn a seemingly-innocuous row of coins that you would just collect without a second thought if you were playing normally and use them as the platforms to cross over to the secret exit. As raocow said, it makes you play a section of the level differently depending on what exit you're going for and that means that although you're traversing the same landscape it feels fresh and different. Those sorts of secret exits are the good ones so I'm giving credit where it's due.