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Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

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Ometeotl
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Ometeotl » 4 years ago

The solution is to let you change the difficulty whenever, like many other games.

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Zummorr
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Zummorr » 4 years ago

WhattayaBrian wrote:
I did notice that people on the talkhaus generally hated on the enemies disproportionately. I don't think it's really legitimate, but I wonder if it has something to do with mario games being prolific here. Like, if that has informed people how enemies "should" be. Or possibly they immediately identified the game as a "platformer" and the enemies were not part of the "core" gameplay? I heard a lot of "what does this enemy add to the game?" when in fact what they added was that combat was a big part of the game and they were there to be killed.
It was mostly me mentioning enemies. Some segments are mostly platforming and maneuvering around obstacles and then at the end before the save point the game throws a bunch of enemies at you. It's just that at the end of a usually instant death or atleast high damage obstacle gauntlet a random enemy arena is either really difficult or trivial. A good example is the random centaur demon who was used a single enemy in the collect the keys segment. He's not really a challenge and can be fairly easily tanked by players

At the same time the game had a habit of placing very fast homing enemies in timed platforming segments is fairly cheap

Maybe it's just me, but the enemy patterns really struck me as rather bland. The little metroid-y guys and worms (in similar but different vein the skeletons) just charge at the player at high speeds as soon as they appear on screen. Rock chucking demoness's and slug monsters just spam arcing projectiles directly at the player while not moving. Most enemies just struck me as being either things that charge at you at extreme speeds or are simply turrets for projectiles.

While combat is something you do alot in the game, It's not usually a source of great difficulty. And when they are difficult it's usually because they are the equivalent to a room filled with Ninja Gaiden's killer hawks.

It's a conundrum. They are mooks and mooks shouldn't be difficult. But then again this is a game about precise challenges, so then shouldn't a mook arena present a specific challenge?

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Ozzy Ment » 4 years ago

I think one of my main problems with this game was the fact that everyone depended on Vi to do everything, claiming that she was the only one who could, despite the fact that during actual gameplay she felt like one of the weakest and most helpless characters in the game. It's especially jarring when Amethyst shows up.
I flat out didn't like this game. Everyone has already done a pretty good job of summing up why. It also doesn't help that most of the game's difficulty seemed to come from damage-sponge bosses and instant death/ludicrous damage traps, or that I have a fairly low tolerance for difficulty in general. It's hard to truly hate the game when I realize that I am not the intended audience, but I'm still glad that it's finally over.
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WhattayaBrian
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby WhattayaBrian » 4 years ago

Alice wrote:Wings of Vi is actually a bit of an exception in that regard but DT is a perfect example of it. He played on the second highest difficulty despite having been warned it's a pretty difficult game and, while it did take him until the end of the game (or technically postgame I guess), he still had to change difficulties in the end.
raocow actually played DT on normal ("veteran"). There are two difficulties above that.
Zummorr wrote:It was mostly me mentioning enemies. Some segments are mostly platforming and maneuvering around obstacles and then at the end before the save point the game throws a bunch of enemies at you. It's just that at the end of a usually instant death or atleast high damage obstacle gauntlet a random enemy arena is either really difficult or trivial. A good example is the random centaur demon who was used a single enemy in the collect the keys segment. He's not really a challenge and can be fairly easily tanked by players

At the same time the game had a habit of placing very fast homing enemies in timed platforming segments is fairly cheap

Maybe it's just me, but the enemy patterns really struck me as rather bland. The little metroid-y guys and worms (in similar but different vein the skeletons) just charge at the player at high speeds as soon as they appear on screen. Rock chucking demoness's and slug monsters just spam arcing projectiles directly at the player while not moving. Most enemies just struck me as being either things that charge at you at extreme speeds or are simply turrets for projectiles.

While combat is something you do alot in the game, It's not usually a source of great difficulty. And when they are difficult it's usually because they are the equivalent to a room filled with Ninja Gaiden's killer hawks.

It's a conundrum. They are mooks and mooks shouldn't be difficult. But then again this is a game about precise challenges, so then shouldn't a mook arena present a specific challenge?
I feel like the enemies need to be simplistic, because multiple guys are getting thrown at you at once. "Flies towards you", "Pauses, then dashes", "Shoots at a constant rate"--these are all simple things that the brain can manage once it's gotten used to them. This is a good thing, because it opens up your design space dramatically. Fighting 2 of X enemy and 1 of Y enemy is different than fighting 1 of X enemy and 2 of Y enemy, and the simplicity of their core movements allows you to place them together without being unfair.

This is how the game keeps combat feeling fresh. You may fight the same enemy multiple times, but never (or almost never) in the same scenario.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Alice » 4 years ago

WhattayaBrian wrote:raocow actually played DT on normal ("veteran"). There are two difficulties above that.
Huh, I went and double checked and you're right on that. I either simply misremembered or I'm mixing it up with something else. He does normally have a habit of choosing hard mode over normal mode on games though.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Xirix » 4 years ago

I'm glad you finished the project raocow, regardless of turning down the difficulty, hopefully the rest of the patreon requests will be a breeze in comparison. ^^

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Telamon » 4 years ago

Xirix wrote:I'm glad you finished the project raocow, regardless of turning down the difficulty, hopefully the rest of the patreon requests will be a breeze in comparison. ^^
The two i'm familiar with should be a breeze, no idea about the third.

Honestly, this game never really had a chance with me, simply because of the aesthetics. I know such things are subjective, but I also feel that a lot of the gameplay problems came down to the sheer size of Vi's sprite, which was probably a consequence of the amount of, erm, detail the creator wanted her to have. But at least that also led to lots of dumb appearance upgrades to have fun with!
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Redesignated » 4 years ago

Welp.

That was a thing.

I'm fairly certain raocow can beat Happy Jewel legitimately on Mortal, as he's demonstrated that level of ability before, but the question becomes if it's actually worth it for him to sink in the time, resources, and essence of his soul energy it would require. Evidently, the answer for the time being is "no." I can't say I really blame him.

The game has good ideas and it does some good things, but it also falls prey to some issues that are just objectively poor design, and that drags it down immeasurably. It has good music! The pixel art (when it wasn't lazy tweening or being used to accentuate hourglass figures of chibi girls in skin-tight clothes) was nice! But a lot of the rest — well, hopefully Solgryn keeps improving.

Also, that was the least-satisfying ending ever and it shows how the plot was a complete non-entity throughout this entire thing lol
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Le Neveu de Rameau » 4 years ago

guys guys I found the perfect graphic style for the remake of this game

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Whimsical Calamari » 4 years ago

Ometeotl wrote:The solution is to let you change the difficulty whenever, like many other games.
And perhaps locking you out of the rewards of harder difficulties if you switch down during a run.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby raocow » 4 years ago

I'd totally play a game with that artstyle. no wait craz'd exists so it's already done
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Nathan the Talkmaus
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Nathan the Talkmaus » 4 years ago

He should hire the guy who did Dragon: A Game About A Dragon to do the art for a remake.
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Ometeotl
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Ometeotl » 4 years ago

Whimsical Calamari wrote:
Ometeotl wrote:The solution is to let you change the difficulty whenever, like many other games.
And perhaps locking you out of the rewards of harder difficulties if you switch down during a run.
Exactly

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby eigenvice » 4 years ago

Pikabread wrote:I don't really have issues with the enemies, and I will say speedruns of this game are legit pretty awesome. I would go watch the AGDQ one if you haven't.
Wow, this is actually super interesting. Link: SGDQ Mortal/Purified Any % in 41:39.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby sedron » 4 years ago

According to the dude at the end of that speedrun, the glitch I made a video of earlier in this thread used to actually be useful for speedruns?
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Re: Wings of Vi - It's finally over

Postby alleightbits » 4 years ago

Well, this game was certainly a thing. Yeah, just a thing, really.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Freakguy » 4 years ago

Dunno if anyone is still interested in this game, but I finally got a good speedrun time I'm happy with. :D
Might be entertaining if all you've seen is raocow playing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk42e42usH8

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Zha Hong Lang » 4 years ago

Freakguy wrote:Dunno if anyone is still interested in this game, but I finally got a good speedrun time I'm happy with. :D
Might be entertaining if all you've seen is raocow playing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk42e42usH8
Count me in! I genuinely appreciate this game despite all the crud that's been thrown at it. Your speedrun is pretty nice, by the way. The shortcuts and such are done really well! (especially the missile section skip, that was better the the GDQ showcase in my opinion)
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Cyril » 4 years ago

SAJewers wrote:I swear, Both the original Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams and Rex Rocket, two games that I both think are amazing games that raocow should play, also have final bosses that are insanely difficult, and end up being brick walls that many people give up on. It's weird.
Okay, I agree 100% on Giana Sisters here but Rex Rocket's final boss is like, the perfect difficulty. It takes a bit of learning but when you get the hang of it it's super fun and it's not really beyond the difficulty of the other bosses.
I had more difficulty with the teleport bot the first time through, and on my second playthrough I actually beat the final boss first try (with less HP and ammo), so I wouldn't say it's really even that hard.


Just got through watching this series because at first I wanted to play the game but when I saw that the final boss took 6 videos to complete I was like "welp I'm never playing this". So yeah.
I can't wait for Rex Rocket because it does have similar learning-type bosses but they are a lot tighter, not as tanky, and way, way more fun. Also the platforming isn't as trial-and-error nonsensical as Wings of Vi, either. Man, Rex Rocket was great, better than I expected even.

anyways honestly the breaking point of the final boss for me is, actually, the constant life-drain. the fact that you're expected to get almost every healing orb to outpace it combined with the fact that it's entire impossible for them to be placed in ways such that you'll likely lose more health getting them due to RNG is what seemed to wreck things more than anything else. the pentahexes are stupid and the worms are overkill as heck but I think the boss was just flawed on a fundamental level to begin with anyways.
Leet wrote:Yeah, this. Going all-out with the very, very end makes sense. Probably better to regulate it to the "bonus"/true final world, though (see: Cave Story, La-Mulana, desunoya games...)
For what it's worth, La-Mulana is another game that falls into the category of "wow this is a really good final boss". Maybe a tad long, but it was one of my favorite bosses in the game (and there were a few bosses I -hated-, too.

Viy

can go rot in hell.)
WhattayaBrian wrote:One day...one day raocow needs to go back and finish Valdis Story...
I do agree 'cause having played Valdis Story through on normal as Wyatt and hard as Reina, to 100% completion on both, it's really a pretty dang fun game. Aside from
the final optional boss
which is just way too tanky to be any fun but... ehh! I don't think there's enough of the game left and it's probably been far too long for raocow to revisit it, though. I will say that, with a good build (which is easy to get; not hard to reset stats, at all) that raocow could probably easily tear through the rest of the game though.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Nathan the Talkmaus » 4 years ago

Cave Story follows a good difficulty curve if you take the machine gun at the first opportunity, never trade it away, and ignore the existence of the "postgame" and consider defeat of the Doctor to be the game's "true ending",

and having Curly alive and non-amnesiac as the best bonus

. Blood-stained Sanctuary or whatever they want to call it today can go sit in the "bad ideas" corner, along with 80% of Wings of Vi and 99% of "I'll cram Touhou references into something Mario-related".

I'm not familiar enough with the non-Commodore/Amiga Giana Sisters games, Rex Rocket, or La-Munala to make any sort of comparison.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby WhattayaBrian » 4 years ago

Parama wrote:For what it's worth, La-Mulana is another game that falls into the category of "wow this is a really good final boss". Maybe a tad long, but it was one of my favorite bosses in the game (and there were a few bosses I -hated-, too.

Viy

can go rot in hell.)
Bahamut is the only boss I truly dislike in that game (and he's even worse in the remake). But yeah the final boss is thematically awesome.
Nathan the Talkmaus wrote:Blood-stained Sanctuary or whatever they want to call it today can go sit in the "bad ideas" corner
Cave Story's Hell is one of the best things to ever come out of gaming. It is a sublime mix of storytelling, adrenaline, and challenge cooked up as a reward for doing some admittedly arbitrary things throughout the main game.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Alice » 4 years ago

WhattayaBrian wrote:
Parama wrote:For what it's worth, La-Mulana is another game that falls into the category of "wow this is a really good final boss". Maybe a tad long, but it was one of my favorite bosses in the game (and there were a few bosses I -hated-, too.

Viy

can go rot in hell.)
Bahamut is the only boss I truly dislike in that game (and he's even worse in the remake). But yeah the final boss is thematically awesome.
I agree with Parama on Viy. Viy is the only boss I have notable trouble with even when very overpowered. I've gone and collected every powerup I can get access to including getting some of the stuff in the Tower of the Goddess before defeating Viy (

through the Gate of Time shortcut

) and I still have trouble with him half the time. The only time I don't struggle all that much with him is if I make sure to have the pistol and full ammo when I get to Viy which kinda feels like cheating.

Bahamut can be annoying but at least in his case he's not an auto scrolling level (well technically his arena is kinda autoscrolling but I'm not talking about the autoscroll itself here) which drains your health stupidly fast if you touch him on top of his other wide ranging attacks. (And actually keeping off Viy can be a serious chore if you're having to rely on melee weapons.)

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Cyril » 4 years ago

for what it's worth I think Cave Story is an overrated mess of a game but that's neither here nor there :lol:
i've honestly never played a video game in my life
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Zha Hong Lang » 4 years ago

Parama wrote:pentahexes
I'm afraid to inform you that's not a word :P

Hexagram was what you were looking for, probably.
Nathan the Talkmaus wrote:Blood-stained Sanctuary or whatever they want to call it today can go sit in the "bad ideas" corner, along with 80% of Wings of Vi and 99% of "I'll cram Touhou references into something Mario-related".
I gave you the benefit of the doubt at first, but now I really think you just hate anything that's above a certain difficulty level, no matter what it is.

Is that the case here? I'm completely fine with it, (some people just don't like hard games, after all) but I can't tell whether it's the stage or the difficulty you don't like.
Last edited by Zha Hong Lang on 13 Oct 2015, 18:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Cyril
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Cyril » 4 years ago

Jayoshi wrote:
Parama wrote:pentahexes
I'm afraid to inform you that's not a word :P
I'm afraid to inform you that I didn't intend for it to be a word :roll:
i've honestly never played a video game in my life
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