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Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Nathan the Talkmaus » 4 years ago

Dark Hunter wrote:Don't call a game bad just because raocow isn't having fun with it. I don't think that's fair to the game.
Well that's not the only reason. :lol:

It's still better than most of the Touhou levels I've seen in SMBX and SMW at this point, I'll grant. And the visuals are a bit more varied than Soldexus was. And he wound up turning this bland, personality-devoid generic chick into a gray-skinned safety bee with lobster tentacles, a huge thong, and an adorable bunny companion.

If regular Jehoul was the real final boss, that would have been the perfectly relieving anticlimax finish to the game, the "real" difficulty being the boss to immediately precede him.
Dark Hunter wrote:Many people enjoy very challenging games. They have fun with them even through the rage. They strive to prove to themselves that they can overcome even the nastiest challenge the game can offer.
raocow is clearly one of them, given some of the games we've seen him beat and what (few) games have beaten him.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Solaris » 4 years ago

i agree with sedron and while my opinion of the boss is a bit lesser than before because of the worms i do think that raocow can do it! however, at the same time, i would understand if he decided not to! either is fine and i think that ive enjoyed this lp enough (and talking/thinking about it) that ill be satisfied with whatever happens!

i do think that theres a lot about wings of vi that i would change! however, regardless of how i feel, i do think that wings of vi does a better job of being this sort of hard game thats A Commercial Product than other ones ive seen! i still wouldnt buy it myself, but i respect it more than some other kinds of hard platformer games...
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby alleightbits » 4 years ago

8bitgamer123 wrote:I predict a ragequit in, at most, 2 more episode 0s.
I guessed what happened yesterday counts as a ragequit? So I was right, maybe?
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Ometeotl » 4 years ago

Well, that was an ending, I guess.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby memnarch » 4 years ago

This was a neat game to watch, but very understandably frustrating on the bosses, especially the last one (on non-angel mode).

Thanks WhattayaBrian and raocow!
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby WhattayaBrian » 4 years ago

It was like half tedious.

Areas were easy, bosses were hard. You can just hold down the respawn button to continually die in areas. However, you need to actively transition to bosses, and the longest respawn-to-death was Kratarac, raocow's second worst boss. :P

I actually thought it would be fun to record the process of blazing through the game on angel mode and talk about the game (would've taken about an hour and a half). But then I found out that Wings of Vi crashes (sometimes) when you have fraps running. :( I hope Solgryn fixes that at some point.

There are three hidden places with chests in the final area. raocow found one of them.

The reason you end the game in a little nexus area is so you have free reign to warp around using the clock or do boss rush.

One day...one day raocow needs to go back and finish Valdis Story...
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Solaris » 4 years ago

im assuming that the two locked things in that one room are difficulty locked?

anyway im glad that you did it this way! it was really cool to see you just beat him on your first try hahah, what a difference :p
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Grounder » 4 years ago






Two ending themes; one for those who liked the game, and one for those who didn't.

Anyway, that ending sure did happen...
Not that it really resolved anything.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Miyutwo » 4 years ago

Haha, that sure was anticlimactic.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby WhattayaBrian » 4 years ago

Solaris wrote:im assuming that the two locked things in that one room are difficulty locked?

anyway im glad that you did it this way! it was really cool to see you just beat him on your first try hahah, what a difference :p
Yes, they are difficulty-gated.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Pikabread » 4 years ago

I'm really very close in opinion to raocow here - I agree that games are allowed to be absurdly difficult, but there are parts in this game that are kind of stupid. I think people knock on this game too hard (partly because it comes from a guy who does IWBTG things and partly because OMFG BOOBS WHAT WILL WE DO), but there are more than definitely issues with it. Overall I still really like the game, and, yeah, Jeh'Oul is sad, but rao, don't push yourself too hard.

I realized the main thing that throws me off kilt with this game is the pacing - the interest curve isn't exactly super well followed here and it stinks. Solgryn obviously tries to, but I think he got way too carried away with making it so that most of the platforms in each individual challenge (especially in the late game) are the crumbly type, which doesn't allow microcosm breaks to asses things - just… learn it and go. And heavily practice-oriented gameplay is fine, but it just feels frustrating when you have to do an entire section in one go. It adds challenge sure, but it kind of defies the interest curve on the microcosm, and that's not great. Ultimately I think Solgyrn just needs more practice in game design.

Alas, we've reached an end now, and the LP ended as it started, and really as it went the whole way: Rubi Fridge Logic.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Alice » 4 years ago

Pikabread wrote:partly because it comes from a guy who does IWBTG things
This is actually specifically why I criticized the inability to change difficulties. On most games that's not really an issue. For example on Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow or Order of Ecclesia you can't change between hard mode and normal mode after you've already started a game on that difficulty. But for games like this or Distorted Travesty it's a pretty vital thing to include specifically because they're intended to be very difficult. If the player gets far in the game (ie: The final boss like raocow did) and then gets stuck and can't change difficulties they're a lot more likely to just drop the game rather than replay the entirety of the game just to get back on a lower difficulty. You (generic you, not specifically you) can't even use an excuse like achievements or prizes for beating a game on a given difficulty either because that's easily fixed by simply using whatever the lowest difficulty the player played on for that file.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Pikabread » 4 years ago

Alice wrote:stuff
it's meant to be about the commitment of beating the game on said difficulty though - and I think that's what shows true strength and ability. And I see where you're coming from, but I don't necessarily agree. It's not a BAD thing to make the difficulty readily available, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing either. I can see its merits and I can see the merits of not not using it. I do see what you're saying with the achievements though, although that would seem kind of strikingly odd, in my opinion at least
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Ditocoaf » 4 years ago

raocow's played, beaten and enjoyed things harder than the medium-difficulty boss of this game. Difficulty can be created in fun and unfun ways. So I'm not disappointed at all that Rao bailed on the medium mode and wrapped things up in a much easier fashion -- there's something to be said for perseverance and accomplishment, but this game didn't really earn that sort of dedication.

Not that this game was terrible. It was pretty good, actually, for the most part! But it wasn't good enough to be worth pushing through that boss. It was time to move on!

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Tenlade » 4 years ago

The problem wasn't this game was hard, it was that it wasn't hard in a fun way. If this game was better designed with less dumb stuff like instant kills, arbitrary poison on the final boss, health bars twice the size they need to be etc, It would be a legit good game. But it wasn't, so it's unfortunately not.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Zummorr » 4 years ago

Wow the three stooges of the boss fight just shield Vi and then zap him.

Overall I think that the game is decent. It's just that Solgryn has quite a few lessons to learn and probably needed better beta testers or to listen to his beta testers. I think enemy placement and usage was pretty dumb and some of the bosses were mechanically obtuse and bloated. I would bet that his future games would be better given that he probably has learned alot of lessons.

Clearly there are strokes of cleverness and good design. It's just that sometimes the game decides: you know what this section needs? a totally annoying homing enemy to just hit-stun you into a pit. The platforming strikes me as good and the bosses are decent, but the enemies and plot really seem like after thoughts.

As far as the other angels I think that they were pretty much missed opportunities to do fun or clever things. We had a short section where Amethyst betrays assists the player. Rubi could've been used in a section where the player has to pick her up and use her to weigh down switches, emphasizing her role as "The Load"

The butterfly could've been used in a section emphasizing her ability to heal, like a poisoned hallway where the player would have to take detours through it to get her healing orbs to survive.

The blond bored angel could've had a section where players followed her under her shield magic to protect themselves from some deadly laser section or something.

I don't know, I just think, man this game could've been quite a bit better.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Le Neveu de Rameau » 4 years ago

So...Angeltown, which had previously appeared to be completely trashed, was actually able to be cleaned up within a few hours, and there don't appear to have been any casualties? I guess the demons weren't as violent as we thought, and the angels were the true monsters for massacring them as they did.

But yeah, this game...feels like a brightly-colored cardboard facade to me. There's a lot of things that look like they might be good upon a superficial glance, but a deeper look suggests the surface is basically all there is, and everything else is sort of shoddily done. And even the surface doesn't hold up when you look at it close up, having ultimately been as hastily thrown together as the rest of things.

This holds both visually, with the splashy graphics and environments, which look nice at first until you notice, for instance, the absent or sub-par animations, as well as the gameplay, where a potentially interesting idea is basically wasted by refusing to see things from the player's perspective. There seems to be an overall feeling of "toss everything out there at once, don't bother refining it; it'll work as is". The fact that the game also seems to be going for an epic feel, but is ultimately rather short, going directly from what feels like late-early-game to early-end-game without much of a middle to speak of makes the whole affair feel very rushed and underdeveloped. And the eye-rolling fact that the author apparently deemed it unnecessary to give the protagonist any sort of attacking animations at all, yet was careful to give every female character a heaving chest animation even while at rest makes you want to shout "Priorities, man!" This is perhaps a refrain which sing throughout the game

Honestly, I find this game off-putting in a lot of ways, not least of all æsthetically. Angels can admittedly be hard to do well--they've been a such a recurring kitsch element for centuries that it can be tricky not to call up those sort of I-don't-care-if-it-rains-or-freezes-as-long-as-I-have-my-plastic-Jesus associations that can make them hard to take seriously, especially if one wants to take advantage of some of the more traditional visual elements from medieval and Renaissance art. And this game really doesn't help this by giving all of the angels snow while skin on top of that. I know it's supposed to make them look ætherial, but it ultimately succeeds in making them look like porcelain grandma figurines. Highly sexualized porcelain grandma figurines. And that's just weird.

Another thing that I think hurts this game, in addition to the already much discussed "not-respecting-the-player" element, is that the game also takes itself surprisingly seriously for what it is. Most games of the super-hard variety tend to have a certain wry playfulness to them to make up for the potential frustration--IWBTG has this, Meatboy has this, and so on, and so on. It's an important thing to have, as it reminds the player not to get too worked up--it's just a game, it doesn't take itself seriously, so why should you? But Vi's StarTropics-level jokes upon picking up a collectable aside, that seems to be largely missing here--the mood is generally fairly downbeat and depressing, with lots of both explicit and implied death and destruction (um, except for the end where everything's magically OK again). Which is a double problem, as the frankly goofy and cliché-filled plot would have worked perfectly fine with a stronger humor element, but as it stands, you're left wondering if you're honestly meant to take this seriously, which is sort of hard to do. All the more so with the aforementioned character design, which seems exaggerated enough to imply that it's deliberately a joke, yet seems in practice to be played completely straight. I often felt myself wondering what exactly the author was aiming for here in the first place, and what went wrong (Deadline? Creator's block? Loss of interest?). For what it's worth, I really liked the fact that raocow felt the need to transform Vi into A the Safety Bee--it added a bit of that wryness that this game seems to have completely forgotten about. After a while, the default Vi comes to long just...wrong.

So yeah, I was not a fan of this game at all. It wasn't a whirlwind of horribility or anything, but rather just a sort of half-baked, corner-cutting patchwork of elements with a coating of garish paint over it which does not at all hold together, and ultimately just feels mildly depressing in a slowly draining sort of way, like a greeting card of a kitschy angel pinned to a corkboard, which has faded from exposed to the sun too long. And which someone then drew gigantic boobs on with a marker. Maybe a mustache, too. No, definitely no mustache, that would be too waggish for this game. In any event, I could have probably spared myself writing the above, as a much more succinct analysis of this game was already offered up far earlier in this thread:
Leet wrote:wings of vi, more like wings of PEE
Amen.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby WhattayaBrian » 4 years ago

Pikabread wrote:I'm really very close in opinion to raocow here - I agree that games are allowed to be absurdly difficult, but there are parts in this game that are kind of stupid. I think people knock on this game too hard (partly because it comes from a guy who does IWBTG things and partly because OMFG BOOBS WHAT WILL WE DO), but there are more than definitely issues with it. Overall I still really like the game, and, yeah, Jeh'Oul is sad, but rao, don't push yourself too hard.

I realized the main thing that throws me off kilt with this game is the pacing - the interest curve isn't exactly super well followed here and it stinks. Solgryn obviously tries to, but I think he got way too carried away with making it so that most of the platforms in each individual challenge (especially in the late game) are the crumbly type, which doesn't allow microcosm breaks to asses things - just… learn it and go. And heavily practice-oriented gameplay is fine, but it just feels frustrating when you have to do an entire section in one go. It adds challenge sure, but it kind of defies the interest curve on the microcosm, and that's not great. Ultimately I think Solgyrn just needs more practice in game design.

Alas, we've reached an end now, and the LP ended as it started, and really as it went the whole way: Rubi Fridge Logic.
I feel like for the good majority of the game, you are not forced into learn-by-trial gameplay. Most "atomic chunks" are visible on the screen at once, and for those that don't, most of them have the floaty eye. In addition, you have a healthbar instead of one-hit-death that allows you to make many more mistakes before dying.

There are, of course, exceptions (mine cart rides are a good example), but I would not say the game feels much like IWBTG or a game like it.

I'd also say the game truly shines on repeat playthroughs. Once you've gotten through the initial hurdles (some good and some bad), the game feels really good. The controls and platforming are very tight, and blasting through stuff that gave you tons of trouble before feels very satisfying. And this, to me, is actually more important than the first playthrough. I am not even very good at WoV, but I could beat mortal in a few hours now. For reference, speed runs are generally around 44 minutes last I checked.

I did notice that people on the talkhaus generally hated on the enemies disproportionately. I don't think it's really legitimate, but I wonder if it has something to do with mario games being prolific here. Like, if that has informed people how enemies "should" be. Or possibly they immediately identified the game as a "platformer" and the enemies were not part of the "core" gameplay? I heard a lot of "what does this enemy add to the game?" when in fact what they added was that combat was a big part of the game and they were there to be killed.
Le Neveu de Rameau wrote:So...Angeltown, which had previously appeared to be completely trashed, was actually able to be cleaned up within a few hours, and there don't appear to have been any casualties? I guess the demons weren't as violent as we thought, and the angels were the true monsters for massacring them as they did.
Angeltown, at least the place we see at the end of the game, was never shown destroyed (or even implied to be such). All that happened in the screens to the right.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Sebby19 » 4 years ago

So much for the subplot of getting Rubi's wings back. They just appeared back on her anyway.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Pikabread » 4 years ago

I don't really have issues with the enemies, and I will say speedruns of this game are legit pretty awesome. I would go watch the AGDQ one if you haven't.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Alice » 4 years ago

Pikabread wrote:it's meant to be about the commitment of beating the game on said difficulty though - and I think that's what shows true strength and ability. And I see where you're coming from, but I don't necessarily agree. It's not a BAD thing to make the difficulty readily available, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing either. I can see its merits and I can see the merits of not not using it. I do see what you're saying with the achievements though, although that would seem kind of strikingly odd, in my opinion at least
There is a point where you have to realize that if your game is too hard and doesn't allow something like changing difficulties when it's this difficult you'll make your customer feel pretty ripped off which means they're less likely to buy your future games. If you want to lock your player into a difficulty for the commitment deal then you should do like Distorted Travesty does where everything up to the intended difficulty you can change your difficulty level on freely and only the most difficult difficulty locks you into that difficulty. That works in a case like that specifically because playing on that difficulty is showing a commitment to beating the game on that difficulty. On anything lower than the max difficulty though it's an extremely arbitrary distinction to bother making.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby WhattayaBrian » 4 years ago

I think one of the big problems is not specific to WoV, and it is that we don't have a good way of telling a player which difficulty is right for them.

Games have WILDLY varying definitions for "Normal" and "Hard", and there's no real way to know which experience is suitable for you based on previous experiences.

I don't really know the solution to this, but guiding people to the correct difficulty would do wonders for happiness.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby OrangeXP » 4 years ago

Sebby19 wrote:So much for the subplot of getting Rubi's wings back. They just appeared back on her anyway.
Pretty sure it was Azurel following Vi around as wingless Rubi ever since you rescued wingless Rubi from the Pr'Gora boss... which means Rubi was only around for the start and end of the game.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Wolfolotl » 4 years ago

now to hope the next game in the lineup actually knows what it wants to do with its overall aesthetic
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Alice » 4 years ago

WhattayaBrian wrote:I think one of the big problems is not specific to WoV, and it is that we don't have a good way of telling a player which difficulty is right for them.

Games have WILDLY varying definitions for "Normal" and "Hard", and there's no real way to know which experience is suitable for you based on previous experiences.

I don't really know the solution to this, but guiding people to the correct difficulty would do wonders for happiness.
That's a bit difficult to do though unfortunately. raocow is actually a perfect example of this. For the majority of games, even if the game and people who have played it warn him, he'll play on hard mode. Wings of Vi is actually a bit of an exception in that regard but DT is a perfect example of it. He played on the second highest difficulty despite having been warned it's a pretty difficult game and, while it did take him until the end of the game (or technically postgame I guess), he still had to change difficulties in the end. Which is exactly why allowing players to change the difficulty is so important. According to what we saw in this last video raocow has about 34 hours of play time on his file. Replaying that much of a game just because you wanted to change difficulties is a bit absurd. (Granted it'd be a lot shorter on easy mode.)

On the other hand if I went into a game knowing it's difficult and still purposefully chose to play on the highest difficulty then when I started seriously struggling I wouldn't be so annoyed about being stuck on that difficulty. That's exactly how I approached distorted difficulty on DT. (Though in my case the difficulty increase from distorted wasn't really an issue anyways because my problem in DT has always been the platforming, lol. This is only speaking for everywhere up to the area you get the fire bat for reference.)


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