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Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

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Voltgloss
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Voltgloss » 4 years ago

I think one of the main issues, which I hadn't realized before, is that once in enrage mode the boss stops doing the "dive into the ice trap" attack - so there's no longer any significant opportunity to score big damage.

raocow, anyone who gives you grief for putting this game on ice can go suck on a demon worm.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby QubicTom » 4 years ago

Wow, those steam screenshots suggest about 600 deaths is the norm for that boss. raocow, are you willing to double the amount of time you've spent on that boss? If your answer is a resounding no, then move on! (The other patreon games are super good and genuinely fun)

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby SAJewers » 4 years ago

tirakai wrote:can someone mod save states or god mode in somehow so we can just be finished

the boss really isn't worth it
Maybe this?
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Alice » 4 years ago

Is it possible to change the difficulty setting of the game after having started the game? I dunno how much that would actually help but if you can lower it then that's always an option if you don't want to give up.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Zummorr » 4 years ago

At Wilhart. Orange gave an estimate.
Willhart wrote:I feel like I underestimated this boss fight earlier.
How many times people usually die on this boss?
OrangeXP wrote:
For people who beat the game already, how many times did it take to beat the final boss the first time? For me, Azurel was 125 deaths, and the final boss was 994, which feels ridiculous.
As a member of the audience, I respect raocow's decision to continue trying, or to put the game down.

Sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor. But stubbornness in the face of adversity is also admirable.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby SAJewers » 4 years ago

Alice wrote:Is it possible to change the difficulty setting of the game after having started the game? I dunno how much that would actually help but if you can lower it then that's always an option if you don't want to give up.
viewtopic.php?p=316669#p316669
WhattayaBrian wrote:raocow,

I am worried. Wings of Vi is a very, very hard game, even on Mortal difficulty. The game gives you no way to change the difficulty down once you started, so if you at some point in the future desire an Angel save with all of your progress, I can make that happen relatively quickly. I really just want to avoid another Valdis Story. :cry:

Anyway--yes, the game has definite problems with visual distinction early on. It's very difficult to tell what's foreground and what's background. These issues, as well as many others, get more infrequent as time goes on, making it seem very much like Solgryn was figuring out the the strengths and weaknesses of his own design in real time. The latter half of the game feels much more solid than the former.
That should answer your question.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Willhart » 4 years ago

The angelic mode version does look beatable on raocow's current skills. The part he was having problems with is considerably different.

The anger mode especially looks easier.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby WhattayaBrian » 4 years ago

Willhart wrote:The angelic mode version does look beatable on raocow's current skills. The part he was having problems with is considerably different.
The part he's having problems with doesn't even exist in Angel mode.

In Angel he never enrages.
In Mortal he enrages at 40% health left.
In Demon he enrages at 70% health left.

As before, whatever raocow decides to do is fine.
As before, the Angel Mode save offer is still on the table.
And as before, raocow made fantastic progress today. Even between cuts, his movements got sharper and more confident, his dps got more optimized, and his overall success rate at reaching the enrage mode increased.

Supreme JJ took me 461 tries my first time. That said, I also completely missed what the red eyes did for hundreds of deaths. Silly me. I also didn't know about the weird Pulse Orb behavior so I was doing heavily reduced damage for a long time. I also didn't figure out Ira's shield for a good while, so I spent a bunch of deaths trying to hit him out of the scream, or run to the other side of the arena.

You're so good at lasers now! And charge attacks! And ice traps! And screams! You've come so far.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Alice » 4 years ago

SAJewers wrote:viewtopic.php?p=316669#p316669

That should answer your question.
Well that's an extremely idiotic design decision. With a game this difficult that's kinda a necessary thing to include if you don't want your players to just flat out quit when things get too difficult rather than replay the entire game up to that point.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby raocow » 4 years ago

I... an Angel Mode finish might be a good idea. I mean, DIstorted Travesty set out the precedent of a boss being too difficult for me and beating it at a lower difficulty level.

If it's not too much trouble... it might be a good idea, yo

Still playing something else this weekend though!
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Telamon » 4 years ago

We can all just find video of the ending if we want to. My choice would be give it one last shot next week and see if you can do it.

I mentioned WoW raid boss design earlier in this thread, and I was reminded again by raocow's strategy to go all out, damage be damned at the end of some runs. It's like when main tank dies while boss is at 3% and you just try to kill it while it eats your healers.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby alleightbits » 4 years ago

It's official. Majora's spine is the vice president of the Angercow Association.
Right under Suboptimal Goopa.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Red » 4 years ago

QubicTom wrote:Wow, those steam screenshots suggest about 600 deaths is the norm for that boss. raocow, are you willing to double the amount of time you've spent on that boss? If your answer is a resounding no, then move on! (The other patreon games are super good and genuinely fun)
Dunno about that, it took me about 260 tries for this last boss and raocow is in general a better player and platformer than me (I got to this same boss with well over six THOUSAND deaths total!), and judging by this last video I think he's pretty close. Ofc this game is no pain, no gain, so if he decides to continue he can expect to become infuriated again and again

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby S.N.N. » 4 years ago

I kind of feel horrible for even suggesting this, but I kind of want to see him tough it out and keep trying, especially since he gets closer and closer each video. Something about the sheer number of deaths and the amount of time he's spent on it would provide an immense amount of satisfaction for everyone if he pulled through and finished the dude off. I mean, aside from a couple of dumb gimmicks (e.g. the poison), I think the boss is pretty damn fitting for a finale. So many games have lame and/or too easy final bosses, but this one seems to pull no punches and really throw every technique you've learned in the game at you.

..but that being said, I would still totally get it if he just said "fuck it" and walked away at this point.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby GalaxyOfJ » 4 years ago

I hope the finale is titled something appropriate like "olympic champion"

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Grounder » 4 years ago

GalaxyOfJ wrote:I hope the finale is titled something appropriate like "olympic champion"
Stapling your wings to a wall.
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby ano0maly » 4 years ago

I don't think you needed to try to have daily updates in the first place. As soon as those worm things appeared the other day and you reacted in despair, it might have been a good idea to stop uploading every day, since a string of video 0's is not fun to edit and not fun to watch. I mean, there are exceptions - when a final boss or something is epic enough to expect in advance 3 or 4 videos/separate runs in a video, to show the learning process - but my opinion of this is that it doesn't look interesting enough for that.

Instead you could just play for however long or short works for you and just have the recording on, in case you have a winning run (and maybe add post-commentary to it if needed). There's enough precedent for doing so; you had introduction videos for Super Marisa World final boss and ex boss and mostly waited for the win to upload the following part.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby FusionWarrior » 4 years ago

I decided to spoiler this after writing it because some people might not want to see vitriol after the stress of today.

Honestly at this point I'm kinda really angry. This boss is pretty crap, like so much of this game so far. It has such great moments but it's like corn in a turd. How does this get a 9/10 on steam? Maybe if it was free sure go ahead, or 99 cents, but at 15 bucks I don't see the value. Not in the current internet age at least. Sure back in the NES days where one game might have to get a kiddo the gap between their birthday and the major religious holiday of their parents choosing, I can be okay with that because that might legitimately be all they have to play for that long. Games have come too far for this to be okay. It's not worth it.

My vote wouldn't even be to beat it on easy. The game doesn't deserve it. I'd rather just watch PPR commentate over someone elses recording (with permission of course) because I don't think the game deserves the dignity.


raocow, in my opinion, you have beaten this game.

The computer simply has cheat codes turned on.

...wow this is completely 180 on how I feel about games... I wasn't even this harsh on Jekyll & Hyde...
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Dark Hunter » 4 years ago

Don't call a game bad just because raocow isn't having fun with it. I don't think that's fair to the game.

Many people enjoy very challenging games. They have fun with them even through the rage. They strive to prove to themselves that they can overcome even the nastiest challenge the game can offer.

Now, I'm certainly not saying that raocow is not a good game player. He has played and completed some extremely difficult titles, and there is no doubt in my mind that he can beat Super Jello and complete this game. However, I think sometimes that he may not enjoy these kinds of games, at least not in the way I mentioned above. They may not be to his taste. Which is just fine: everyone has their own preferences.

I would like to see raocow complete this game, but only if that's what he personally wants to do, and he'll enjoy the sense of triumph. If not, the victory is hollow, and there's no reward for either himself or his fans.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Sebby19 » 4 years ago

I don't know why such a difficult game was voted in on patreon in the first place. We all saw what happened with Valdis Story.

That got me thinking, what other games has Rao left unfinished? Off the top of my head:

-Mari Ari (rage quitted, and deleted on camera)
-Clarence's Big Chance
-Copy Kitty
-that one with the dream world and gravity changes
-Valdis Story

Any other's?
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Whimsical Calamari » 4 years ago

Sebby19 wrote:-Copy Kitty
I'm not sure if that should count as "incomplete". He didn't play all the game modes in Turbo, but he did super clear most of the original, and I believe he at least completed Turbo's Normal Mode.
-that one with the dream world and gravity changes
Hina's Fluffy Dream

Clarence's Big Chance was before my time, but I don't believe I saw raocow leave any games unfinished outside of that last one and Valdis Story.
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby Dark Hunter » 4 years ago

Re:Copy Kitty, I believe raocow has stated his intention to go back and complete Hard Mode on that game at some later point.

He put it off because, at the time he played through Turbo's normal mode, Hard Mode was about to get a major update with a bunch of new stuff, so Azure (one of Copy Kitty's creators) requested raocow wait until the patch updating all that was out.

That patch is now out (and has been for some time), so it's just a matter of time.

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby QubicTom » 4 years ago

Dark Hunter wrote:Re:Copy Kitty, ... Hard Mode was about to get a major update with a bunch of new stuff ... That patch is now out (and has been for some time), so it's just a matter of time.
I've been beta testing the version that will be released onto steam, and although there is still some content to be released to testers, it's hugely upgraded, polished and pretty different (in a very good way) to the main version available publicly right now. I hope raocow waits for the steam version before trying hard mode!

Waiting to see now what the B-side will be this weekend... any guesses out there?

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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby WhattayaBrian » 4 years ago

It'll obviously be some long overdue Voxatron.
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sedron
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Re: Wings of Vi - Not Myougi's Castle

Postby sedron » 4 years ago

So, I'm gonna put some thoughts here, since I put a lot of my Patreon votes towards this and people have been weirdly critical of this game from the start.

I don't regret voting for this at all. Yeah, there are rough spots to the game and the LP, but overall I think the game is a lot of fun and the LP has been enjoyable. I've fallen behind raocow in terms of progress over the past couple of weeks due to just not having a whole lot of time to put towards the game, but it's been great learning the game and watching rao learn (or otherwise bash his head into a thing until it works,) as well.

Wings of Vi is NOT perfect, nor does it need to be. It is very, VERY hard, but it advertises itself as such. raocow knew this going in. I don't think he would have included it as a voting option were it not something he felt he could reasonably handle. Being difficult to the point where rao gets angry really shouldn't be considered a bad thing. I do think that this is the upper limit of what rao can handle, coming close to being outside his weight class. He doesn't need to be able to beat it, though. It's not the end of the world if it doesn't happen, and it's not a fault of the game for that being the case either.

This isn't the first time rao's taken on a game that ended up being very challenging, and if he ends up not beating it on Normal mode it won't be the first time he's done so. Distorted Travesty obviously ended on a lower difficulty. I believe he ended up save-state abusing his way through the end of S Mario. Actually, let's look at the description from the end of S Mario real quick.
raocow wrote:Yup.

Playing difficult games 'legimitaly' comes with a price. The price of realising that you will not always win. Modern games are made to be won 100% of the time, but this is not always the case with amateur or indepent game. And, uhm, yes.

I'm sure some peeps will say that I've already done harder, or that I could totally learn this thing, but... I'm just not willing. Some things are not worth it. I pushed myself a lot harder than I thought I could through this game, but a mixture of unpreditacle lengths and difficulties made me unwilling to push it in this thing. I rewinded-scum the level so we could see the traps and whatnot, but essentially I consider the game 'unbeaten'.

Guys, I didn't beat the video game. And that's totally fine.
(Link here if you want it.)

So, yeah.

Like some others, I do absolutely believe raocow can beat Supreme Jeh'Oul. He's made a lot of progress, and at this point he's gotten so close that it'd feel like a real anticlimax if he didn't win on Normal mode. That said, I also do not blame rao if he takes WhattyaBrian's Angelic Mode offer. It's not the end of the world if he doesn't ultimately win. It's just a video game. I certainly can't say rao didn't give it his all, either.
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