MaGL X2 - Cat Planet × Pokemon OTP

[SpoonyBardOL]

Wow.

Sturg you're some kind of fantastic lunatic game-make genius. The gimmick alone is probably enough to carry its own game, and the conclusion was just marvelous.

[Mata Hari]

If the player doesn't understand, then you probably didn't explain it well enough.

But you pretty much can't fail to adequately explain it using text. That's the point.

Most games use text to explain game mechanics and dismissing it as terrible design is... really kinda throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Grounder]

From borderline creepypasta to a monty python sketch

amazing

[kuposan3]

wow

at first I didn't get why it was blowing everyone's mind. then raocow figured out the gimmick so it was easier to see how it worked, and that was cool.
then it turned into diagonal stripes and I could feel my mind starting to blow
and when the ending happened, well.

basically, that was amazing. I gotta try to make something this cool in the smbx thing I started working on.

[Sturg]

it's funny cause the ending only took me like an hour or two to do

edit: oh yeah there's two secret awesome references to some particular stuff in the level that no one has managed to put together

[SAJewers]

You can't fail because you're hitting them over the head with what to do. That's not really a good way to tutorialize something or explain a mechanic when you can use the design of the level to teach it.

We literally discussed this about a month ago in the A2XT Forum. See this, this, and this, which were linked when we discussed this.

[Grounder]

You can't fail because you're hitting them over the head with what to do. That's not really a good way to tutorialize something or explain a mechanic when you can use the design of the level to teach it.

Counterpoints: DarkSydePhil and Arin Hanson.

[Sturg]

When I think about it I should've just imagined those two trying to play the level to get the best results

[Willhart]

I think the experience of figuring something out is way more neat. Especially if it does not use words. Makes it really nice in a subtle way.

[Alice]

That's what I get for trying not to explicitly tell the player what they're supposed to do with a message box. I actually didn't know much of another "vague" way of telling it (like I didn't want a picture depicting it that'd be lame). Guess different people see different things I guess?

You shouldn't really need to make it more obvious though. You shouldn't have to just outright spell it out for the player. If they miss it like raocow did it's really more on them because it's still pretty damned obvious. The only thing I could think of that might be a good change is making those the only blocks with arrows/pluses on them. Just imagine if a game like La-Mulana threw away their puzzles for something that outright explained everything to the player. That'd do away with like 90% of the game right there in favor of making everyone understand things effortlessly.

Also I didn't know how to use lua so none of that exists in this level and I just dealt with the one mid-point.

If you didn't use LunaLua how did you do the switching bit?

I think the experience of figuring something out is waty more neat. Especially if it does not use words. Makes it really nice in a subtle way.

I personally agree with this 100%. It shouldn't be so convoluted that nearly everyone is going to struggle to even figure it out but there's no reason to just flat out spell it out for everyone either. Especially when the method used is pretty straight forward and obvious as it is. raocow just wasn't really paying attention, as he's wont to do.

[Ignoritus]

what the hell sturg why the hell did you just shit amazingness all over my screen god damnit do you know hard it is to get that off of a monitor

[Arctangent]

Honestly good game design and good LPer design, from experience, are not mutually inclusive.

Like you can just flat-out use text and some LPers will still end up ramming their heads into a wall until they reread the text for the sixth time. There's just something about both having a personality and recording your gameplay that makes anything a game tries to tell you incomprehensible, I guess.

I mean sure you can say the best game design would be good LPer design but let's be real that's entirely theoretical.

[Sturg]

If you didn't use LunaLua how did you do the switching bit?

It was lunadll auto-code so I guess you could consider that to be in the same category, but overall this was pre-lua.

I had some big help from Zyglrox Odyssey with the coding since the original one I had worked but lagged the game after switching backgrounds so many times. That's why he's on the final screen (and he says stuff).

[Blivsey]

can't take two steps without getting outclassed, can i

[Alice]

Honestly good game design and good LPer design, from experience, are not mutually inclusive.

Like you can just flat-out use text and some LPers will still end up ramming their heads into a wall until they reread the text for the sixth time. There's just something about both having a personality and recording your gameplay that makes anything a game tries to tell you incomprehensible, I guess.

I think it's more that doing commentary while playing a game isn't conducive to paying attention and as such some lpers (such as raocow it seems) don't even attempt to pay attention. Which results in them missing blatant stuff even if the game's text outright tells them something.

I mean sure you can say the best game design would be good LPer design but let's be real that's entirely theoretical.

Designing for the lowest common denominator is how a lot of series end up getting really dumbed down and stop appealing to their original fans.

It was lunadll auto-code so I guess you could consider that to be in the same category.

I had some big help from Zyglrox Odyssey with the coding since the original one I had worked but lagged the game after switching backgrounds so many times. That's why he's on the final screen (and he says stuff).

Ah, right. I forgot LunaDLL was even a thing still.

[TaviTurnip]

I think the experience of figuring something out is way more neat. Especially if it does not use words. Makes it really nice in a subtle way.

I'll be honest. When raocow played my MaFAB, I got slightly worried because he struggled to find the super obvious button (which, you know, I'm aware wasn't the most obvious button; I should have used white and not a mild green) and I was afraid that he might hate it and that the viewers might hate it via that. But then watching him attempt to find solutions, and him having trust that it was clearly not as crazy as it felt because that wouldn't make any sense, made me really happy. It was super exciting to see him struggle a little to find the answer, and when he did all the worry went away and was turned into "aww yeah now we're on track" and it was just... really neat >_> A more fulfilling experience over having him go "oh okay this is what I do, RIP four Mother Brain boss". And yes it happened again in my MaGL and was less funny that time, haha.


Having a player have to actually exercise their brain a little is the best, in my opinion. Not too heavily and definitely not gameplay with zero brain exercise required. There is a certain elation with realizing you found a solution, after all, and raocow seems to respond very positively to "oh THAT'S what I missed " after he figures something out that was obvious in hindsight. I think that's a good reaction to have. Spelling things out entirely directly for the player, doesn't leave much room for something like this. It's just a game/level, at that point.

[thatguyif]

You shouldn't really need to make it more obvious though. You shouldn't have to just outright spell it out for the player. If they miss it like raocow did it's really more on them because it's still pretty damned obvious.

What is "obvious" can be verrrrry subjective though. It's a hard balance to make on dropping a hint in terms of spelling it out to the player vs. letting them figure out on their own, but to say something is clear when it could be ambiguous is awfully presumptuous on the part of the viewer, if not somewhat elitist.

[TaviTurnip]

What is "obvious" can be verrrrry subjective though. It's a hard balance to make on dropping a hint in terms of spelling it out to the player vs. letting them figure out on their own, but to say something is clear when it could be ambiguous is awfully presumptuous on the part of the viewer, if not somewhat elitist.

Not to ruin the tone completely in saying so, but there is the fact that [ispoiler]some players are just really really dumb[/ispoiler]. We all miss something obvious sometimes, but a lot of people feel frustration at things that are really only a result of their ineptitude and this causes a lot of vocal backlash that shouldn't exist.

In this case the answer was right in front of the player and presented in a simple manner, with enough availability to be obvious. If Sturg wanted to make comprehension a requirement, he could have made down+down an initial trigger, which I think is what he tried to do since the house doesn't visibly appear until you flip into night mode once. And for keyboard players (the forever argument about SMBx-based design) you can't do this by accident. Imagine what would happen if we'd all played it and not raocow, and say 70% of us used keyboards. This conversation might be much different!

Whereas if Sturg had used like, an NES or '80s/'90s era hint, where either game designers got off to vague mysteries or we just had poor translations/localizations, then yeah, it would have been bad news :T I forget now what game it was but my friend always tells me about this one legendary text-based game or something where you have to pick up a calculator in the first pit and flip it upside-down just to be told you need to go in a certain direction or something really dumb later in the game. With something like that, you'd have to be totally insane to tell a player the answer is "right in front of them", and even NES era hints with a set number of possibilities (like "light every tree in Hyrule on fire") are pushing it. They aren't misleading and you can figure them out with common sense, but it's really silly.

I'M SORRY I HAVE A LOT TO SAY ABOUT VIDEO GAMES

[Willhart]

I could not see it any other way personally. It works that well when it works.

[Alice]

What is "obvious" can be verrrrry subjective though. It's a hard balance to make on dropping a hint in terms of spelling it out to the player vs. letting them figure out on their own, but to say something is clear when it could be ambiguous is awfully presumptuous on the part of the viewer, if not somewhat elitist.

In this instance it really isn't subjective. If he hadn't managed to accidentally activate the gimmick and somehow not even notice, raocow wouldn't have been able to proceed without learning the gimmick. If you're stuck on a screen where the only thing you can do is reveal something that spells out "⇓+⇓" then if you still somehow fail to figure out the obvious logical choice it's completely on you and not the designer. If a player is too stupid or inattentive to figure out a hint this obvious then it's very likely that they'd still manage to fail to understand it even if you used a textbox and outright explained it to them.

[raocow]

yeah honestly the only reason why this happened the way is did is that I consistantly... accidently double-tapped down, haha. For the longuest time I thought the trigger was just pressing down ONCE on top of the revealed arrow, and it kept working so...

[TaviTurnip]

Keyboard versus controller is a fairly big aspect about how we see these things, and the fact that you use the uncommon (and arguably "unintended") method causes a lot of people to not see eye-to-eye on issues. I kinda wish there was an easier way to communicate this for the average viewer, or something.

[KayhemMaus]

...was that Megalovania on Kazoo?

Anyway. WOW. What a level! So glad you found it eventually Sturg. ;) That was pure amazing! Such a cool design and gimmick. THIS is why I'm glad there is creative freedom to use what you feel in MaGL, because you get gems like this. Without doubt, best level in the post game! I'd say the entire game buuuut I don't want to detract from the achievements of the entrants.

As for Gimmick conversation: I prefer show don't tell, unless you're trying to be vague, then text clues will suffice but don't be SUPER obvious about it. For example: one of my levels in MaGLX:LL has a bonus star gimmick that requires you to pay attention, but I don't exactly explain why. But when you take the level title in consideration with the clues, it all makes sense by the end.
I like Riddles, see.

[Grounder]

Likely source of Kazoo track if anyone's interested.

[Sorel]

that must have been one of the- no, the best level I have ever seen

everything was so spot on I can't even ugh

take all my kudos. all of them.