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MaGL X2 - Cat Planet × Pokemon OTP

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
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ano0maly
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by ano0maly »

Personal Fun: "This game suits (or doesn't suit) my likings."
Other Fun: "I recommend (or not recommend) this game to y'all due to reasons."

I would say the second holds real weight if you're a reviewer, a tester, or a judge for a publicly available contest. The first would only be more important if the setting was intended to be very personalized, like a casual blog.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by Sturg »

Yeah, for judging a contest on this scale, recommending levels on a scale from 1-25 would be pretty difficult for me at times. And you don't really know what the consensus will like, so narrowing down the score to like 10 points would just be heck of a lot simpler to properly express that side of judging I believe.

Edit: Like I get it's important, I get it. But I feel it shouldn't span up to 25 points, since you can't put an exact number on something like that.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by Leet »

I feel like lowering the other's fun score would be for if there were design flaws that didn't affect your love for the level/game. I've seen the game Flower, Sun and Rain given a "3/10, play it now" score because the game is just... bad, but lovable. The graphics for the DS port are ugly, there's a ton of pointless backtracking which is directly lampshaded, a plot twist relies on knowledge of a game that was never released in English, the climax of the game consists of simple math problems, etc. etc. and yet it's definitely a game you can love on atmosphere and flavor alone.

a nice level wouldn't be comparable because it doesn't have any flaws, just controversial gameplay.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by FluffyMeatloaf »

The fires of discussion continue to burn fiercely, it seems. This reminds me of when I was catching up on the pre-LP discussion and there were several pages where Hoeloe and I think SAJewers(?) were going at it over the pros and cons of lunalua and autocode. Good times, good times.

My world is literally bacon at this point. No wait!
Escort missions, aaaaaaaaagh... that aside, this looks pretty well made, but I can just imagine how nervous I'd be in the player's seat, especially at the parts where the switch blocks are only two blocks wide. The level itself has a nice space / nighttime look. Even if it's an oversight, I kinda like how the green shells can net you the exit, but that's probably because I'm a poor-playing dope that enjoys those kinds of exploits. (really remembering Metroid Hunters on that thought...)
Third Murderer wrote:Being able to break my level with a shell is actually completely intentional; I found it way too hard otherwise.
And so it wasn't an oversight, haaa! That's awesome. Again, though, I'm not so hot at these kinda games as of now :P

Also the wiener pig is hilarious.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by Ditocoaf »

Here's how I've always thought of the "Others Fun Factor" score, in a if-I-were-a-judge sort of way:

I'd first rate the Personal Fun Factor score on pure personal enjoyment/reaction. Then I'd briefly think about my preferences: "I like X sort of thing a lot" or "I hate Y thing unusually hard" or "the level pushed my buttons in this way". Then I'd adjust my personal fun score up-or-down based on that, and use the result for the other fun score.

So it wouldn't be a pure "what would the average person think" thing. It's silly trying to name a number in a directionless void with no frame of reference -- there's no such thing as an average person, you can't calculate a "middle" for people's personality traits. But I'd find it relative to the personal score, a way to try to separate out what I think is "just me". Obviously you can't perfectly know all your biases, but I'd say "this is the part of the rubric where you try to do that as best you can", which gives you full permission to be as biased and honest as possible for the personal score.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by Sturg »

That's reasonable.

In a sense I still feel the points for Other Personal Fun should've been lower. Having separate scales but similar rates so if an attempt to rid of your biases isn't always successful, there's still a method of being able to present what you think but on a much lesser scale than it is currently. Just in case something that may still had some personal biases in the Other Fun category, it doesn't impact the score too much.

Like for a hypothetical instance having Personal fun be 20 points while Other Personal Fun being out of 10 points. Rating a something between the 15-20 range in personal fun would be similar to rating 8-10 on the other.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by eigenvice »

GenoWhirled wrote:
LunarRainbowShyGuy wrote:Long Pig.png
Oh god this is amazing. Hope you don't mind me doodling a quick thing.
Magnificent.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by CloudyCloud »

How I see: personal fun factor is quite subjective, but it is necessary. It is basically judging from personal viewpoint.

While other person fun factor is more an attempt in being objective. I am not saying that it is good, bad or a fail. It is basically judging from other's viewpoint, as much as possible.

Just let me share a certain line.
You are not a fish; from what do you know the joy of fish?
--- from an ancient China story. http://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/chin/La ... fFish.html
--- this happened before Jesus was born.

I don't know how much that story can help about it.

I do think the judging criteria design this time is quite okay, there is no need to change.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by S1eth »

Dog In Da Grass wrote:
Sturg wrote:
ano0maly wrote: I don't get why you act like that's a problem though. The point is that the distinction between the two subscores has already been drawn, as Dragon Fogel and I explained. As long as you're considering beyond your own personal experience at all, that's good enough of a start.
For a start? Sure.

But my problem with it though is that this consideration is still a huge chunk of your final score, seeing as this portion is 25 points it's just as important and necessary as the Personal Fun Category. The difference between these two is that one you're scoring for yourself, while the other your scoring for what you consider someone else would feel which to me honestly shouldn't be as 'big' as the first category. If a much loved and popular level's score reflected poorly based on gaining a much lower score in the 'Other Person Category', you can't really blame the judge for thinking people wouldn't really had liked it as they did. And for each judge, how they draw that distinction will for the most part be completely varied (I mean, look at Horikawa's explanation how 'a nice level' scored lower than Quills).

Even if it's good to draw a distinction beyond your experience, it shouldn't be so detrimental to placings. It shouldn't be exactly and meticulously scored between 1-25 points. It's an educated guess and it all comes down to what you consider to what other people will experience, when you won't be necessarily right most of the time.

Do you think it would be better off in future contests that the fun category be like 30 or 35 while the other fun could be 15 or 20?
I see it the opposite way. The "Other person fun" category is much more important, and the personal fun doesn't even need to exist.

From looking through the judge scores, I see a lot that the personal fun truly shows biases such as "I like genre X" --> 25/25 (Horikawa, Quill), "I don't like genre Y" --> 1/25 (Sturg), no matter how well those levels actually compare to their peers in the same genre. On the other hand, it seems that a lot more consideration went into the scoring for "other person fun". As a judge, you have to realize that you are just a single player, but judge for a contest of over 300 participants and thousands of viewers. It is important to realize your own likes and dislikes compared to the general viewerbase and try to eliminate those as much as possible, putting yourself in other people's shoes. I can realize that e.g. I really hate puzzle levels (not actually true), but I can still give a puzzle level a high score when I see that it is well executed even though I get horribly frustrated playing it.
And if Horikawa and Quill truly thought that a nice level is that great, they should've given it a 25/25 in "other people fun" just like they did for "personal fun", but they gave it 11 and 15. That's the "honest" score. (I should also add that "other people fun" does NOT mean: "most people like genres with lots of gameplay, so this exploration experience level needs lower score for that category". It means "how well did this level actually execute the exploration, and how good was the writing?", and as it turns out, it's apparently 11 or 15 out of 25)

edit: "Fun" is actually a pretty weird name to use for a category. Since you're actually judging level quality, not necessarily "fun" or "enjoyment". Whereas music and graphic judge specific assets of the level, "personal/other person fun" judges the composition, or arrangement of the pieces to create a whole, even if the set goal is not fun, but maybe to make the player sad, or uncomfortable, challenged (even as far as boshy-style masochism), or even afraid.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by Xalnop »

So people's opinions are different. Case closed.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by 7NameSam »

There is too much Discourse in this contest
I came here for happy fun jump time
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by QubicTom »

we should just ban opinions what do you think (don't answer that, that would be an opinion)

Oh oh real idea: People who do level reviews normally place them in spoilers, right? Reviews of the judging must be placed in spoilers too, so it's easier to ignore the wet blanket parade :lol:
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by LunarRainbowShyGuy »

GenoWhirled wrote:
LunarRainbowShyGuy wrote:Long Pig.png
Oh god this is amazing. Hope you don't mind me doodling a quick thing.
Wow, this is great. Thank you. I wasn't expecting this to get this much of a reaction but I'm glad I did this now.
CloudyCloud wrote:
LunarRainbowShyGuy wrote:I feel like today's level could have been better if the pig was wider, making the timing for hitting the switch more lenient. I took the sprite and made it wider myself (thanks for posting the sprite source) and it only took me a few minutes. I included it in this post so you can see what it looks like.
Long Pig.png
But is the hitbox also wider and longer? The main point is the hitbox.
SMBX allows you to change the hitbox size of any npc. So yes, the hitbox will be bigger if you set it up properly.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by Sturg »

Xalnop wrote:So your opinion is different. Case closed.
This post is pretty cool.

If I were to change one thing about today's level, I probably would've replaced the 'pick-up-able' npc with a monty mole npc.
Third Murderer wrote:Being able to break my level with a shell is actually completely intentional; I found it way too hard otherwise.
Also seriously the shell was placed there intentionally? Man when you got to put in a exploit to beat the level because it was too hard for yourself, there might be some issues with difficulty there.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by Third Murderer »

Long pig is good pig.
Sturg wrote: Also seriously the shell was placed there intentionally? Man when you got to put in a exploit to beat the level because it was too hard for yourself, there might be some issues with difficulty there.
Like I said, I made the level in an hour. It's bad and I know it's bad.

Difficulty is a tough thing to gauge though; I could barely beat my level from last year and then raocow breezed through it without dying once. I don't actually play video games, Mario or otherwise, all that much myself anymore, so it's very hard for me to tell if something is difficult just for me, or intrinsically so.
Emral wrote:The switch block in the end appears to have been the same colour/same type as those found throughout the level (need confirmation), so you could've skipped it entirely in two ways.
It's actually a different switch color under the hood, just using the same graphics as the other switches.
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Re: MaGL X2 - raocow x Lasagna OTP

Post by King of GETs »

Cirno wrote:You know what? I'm really happy with my placement. I feel like I built a fairly average, solid boss that does what it sets out to do without having any glaring flaws. This was reflected in Horikawa's and Sturg's scores, and Quill even rated it highly for some reason, which I can't really complain about.
Fun Fact: "King of GETs" is an obvious reference to "King of Games," aka Yami Yugi. My username is Egyptian-based, and I made a Touhou-themed level and boss. Your username is Touhou-based, and you made an Egyptian-themed room for the boss. Our levels were only 0.005 apart in score after math is computed, and both of our videos had the word "tomb" in them.

Is it all just a coincidence?

Probably.

raocow contests tend to do such things.
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Re: MaGL X2 - raocow x Lasagna OTP

Post by Penguinator44 »

King of GETs wrote: Fun Fact: "King of GETs" is an obvious reference to "King of Games," aka Yami Yugi. My username is Egyptian-based, and I made a Touhou-themed level and boss. Your username is Touhou-based, and you made an Egyptian-themed room for the boss. Our levels were only 0.005 apart in score after math is computed, and both of our videos had the word "tomb" in them.

Is it all just a coincidence?

Probably.

raocow contests tend to do such things.
And Cirno's level placed in a position ending in 5 while your level ended in a position with a number that was off by one from a 9
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by Mata Hari »

You can toggle whether the player can bring items through transitions, but they can't by default.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by FluffyMeatloaf »

Well gee, should I spoiler tag again now? I'm getting kinda baffled here...

I Believe That Boom Boom Are Shrill and I Feel Very Strongly About This!
The visibility gimmick does look like it can be just a bit hard on the eyes, but this appears to be a fun, sound level all the same. Good name adherence, also, and the end bits were kinda confusing in an entertaining way.

Wheel Wood
A forest on a train is neat, though it also makes me think of train cars just carting lumber and that imagery is kinda sad compared to this happy bit, ignoring the implied ruin part. But yeah, besides the P-Switch maybe needing a bit of foreknowledge, this level's pretty cool.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by Pikabread »

Wheel Wood sounds like the name of a Megaman X boss. It was also a neat little level.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by WasabiJellyfish »

Okay that first level started as like a really Mario level, like with well made little secret things... AND THEN HEADACHES HAPPEN. Seriously it doesn't even look hard it's just visually annoying. If you're going to do that do it with invisibility and slight outlines or speckled pixels on it, not massive walls of complex blocks. It wasn't even necessary at all and it had nothing to do with the level name. Also I'm having a hard time believing you feel very strongly about Shrill Boom Boom's, Mr. One Boom Boom with a text box per level guy.

The Wood Wheel one had a nice little aesthetic imo.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by Emral »

I liked the genuine SMB3-ish feel to the first level. The screams are what made it in my opinion, as they invoked a kind of fear in the player's mind, making them wonder about what will happen if they get further into the castle.
In hindsight, it was probably just Boom-Boom getting mad at the architect for making half his castle headache-enducing. I kinda expected a bird-face Boom-Boom replacing Wart at the end, some monstrocity which would be both hilarious and terrifying.

Wheel Wood was cute. Some of the enemy placements provided unfair spikes in difficulty, but apart from that it executed its concept w(he)ell.
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Re: MaGL X2 - Now we know that it's somewhere where the sky is blue. That's going to run things down quite a bit.

Post by Zephyr_DragonLord »

The exception to the transition rule is Link and his keys... and that makes some things easier. Long pig is too good.
Let's get to levels.

Man1234FK: I Believe That Boom Boom Are Shrill and I Feel Very Strongly About This
I really like what this level does. It has a fair challenge attached to it, and the castle itself has some variety with its environment. I have one gripe with this level; the block section where it's blue one blue strains the eyes... Though it's hard to make a section like that without straining the eyes. Boom Boom snoring was great.

ChanceWolf: Wheel Woods
This level has a good amount of spirit, and that is the main thing that sets it apart from other levels... The trees were nice, and somehow the water that wasn't actually water turned into a neat little touch. The secret exit is pretty alright as far as they go. Nothing here is too challenging, but it keeps people on their toes. Good job here.
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by GVirusG »

I got a little headache from the first levels block section. Please don't make sections like that, more painful than enjoable :(
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Re: MaGL X2 - LUESoldat x Emotion OTP

Post by Grounder »

HEY LOOK GUYS I KNOW HOW DIFFERENT HUES OF THE SAME GENERAL COLOR LOOK A BIT DIFFERENT

Also, wow Toad #4 was a big jerk in the second level.
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