Super Meat Boy - some day we'll meat again

[Unaniem]

If raocow manages to reach what I think he'll reach tomorrow it's gonna be a wild ride.

Day after tomorrow then

[Octagon]

I don't mind Little Horn that much. That kind of design isn't too bad in a game with infinite instant retries. The lack of telegraphing and length are annoying, but I found later normal levels much worse in terms of trial and error.

I kind of like the x-20 stages (the light world ones, that is). They combine all or most of the obstacles that were introduced in the world before, to form a nice retrospective challenge that adds some tension before the boss. And I think each of them contains a bandage.

[Sebby19]

Meatboy beating up his girlfriend by accident. Whoops.

[Alice]

I'm a little bit surprised raocow had that much trouble with that boss. My first time only took me four tries. I died once to his first attack, once to his faceplant, once to his tantrum, then once to his second tantrum. I actually thought it was a surprisingly easy boss and struggled with it less than any before it, lol.

[Crow]

raocow, you really should go back and do at least the first two-three dark worlds or the game's gonna get to be kind of pathetic when you finish the light world.

[raocow]

see, I see it as it serving as a well deserved break

also wow, this euphoric feeling. now THAT'S how you know a game does hard RIGHT.

[Ditocoaf]

Yeah, having a big easy section after beating the boss will probably be a nice change of pace. Beating several levels in a video again, etc.

There is one problem with that strategy, though: Like 50% of what makes a Dark World level great is seeing exactly how they modified the Light World version to make it harder. When the Light World version isn't fresh in your mind anymore, that aspect is less effective.

[raocow]

honestly the damage is already kinda done in that regard.

[Ditocoaf]

True and fair enough!

Speaking of "too late": When those demon-mouth things hit the ground, the pattern of the mini-mouths is based on the angle of the surface it hit (not the direction it was moving). Two of the mini-mouths always go out parallel to that surface, "along" it, so if you're just slightly away from that surface you'll be safe. And the four other mini-mouths always leave a gap exactly in the middle -- where you'd draw a line perpendicular from the surface that was hit. So if the demon-mouth-cannon hits a flat floor, you can also be safe by being directly above it.

[Ashan]

So I don't know if this was already mentioned cause I haven't exactly been keeping up with the thread, but basically the stupid simon-says boss (and really, the fact that pretty much all the bosses are lackluster) was basically due to time constraints, and I've heard in multiple interviews from Edmund McMillen and Tommy Refenes that like... neither of them are exactly proud of the bosses, this one in particular is usually the one brought up cause it's... ya know, kinda dumb.

[Dark Hunter]

To be honest, I found Chapter 5's boss to be more poorly designed and lazy (well, if it was time constraints, then "rushed" is probably a better term) than Hell's.

But then the Final Boss made up for it, so all is forgiven.

[Crow]

yeah the fifth boss is pathetic really, I like the platformer-level bosses but this one and the next are boring/bad

[mellonpizza]

There is one problem with that strategy, though: Like 50% of what makes a Dark World level great is seeing exactly how they modified the Light World version to make it harder. When the Light World version isn't fresh in your mind anymore, that aspect is less effective.

I'm sure most of the levels are just barely in the back of his memory; enough so that when he goes back, he'll probably be like "Oh yeah, this level. Oh jeez, they really sawed it up!"

[DullahanDodgeman]

I'm still waiting for Dark Hospital just because of how some of the levels look, and especially that level that has "Grape" in the name. Or was that the Expert Remix version? Ugh, I can't remember. It's a hard level but I love the shortcut in that level for some reason.
But if he does go onto Rapture, well, good luck. Plenty of returning gimmicks and a few new ones to make you scream and/or go "WHEEEEEEEEEE!".

[Icelink256]

Something about projectile trajectory.

Because rotating a standard 8-directional spread-shot 23 degrees is so well though out!
Please! Early bullet-hell games on the PC-88 were doing this, likely before the developers were born!

Please don't give indie devs credit, where it's undeserved, most of them are too damn big-headed as it is.

[YelseyKing]

also wow, this euphoric feeling. now THAT'S how you know a game does hard RIGHT.

...you didn't. YOU DIDN'T! ... how the hell? That one jump. THAT ONE JUMP! >_<

Because if you ask me, *that's* not the "right" kind of hard, if you're talking about what I think you are... gods. *shudder*

[Alice]

Something about projectile trajectory.

Because rotating a standard 8-directional spread-shot 23 degrees is so well though out!
Please! Early bullet-hell games on the PC-88 were doing this, likely before the developers were born!

Please don't give indie devs credit, where it's undeserved, most of them are too damn big-headed as it is.

And don't forget, bullet hells are also directly comparable to platformers, as proven repeatedly in SMW romhacks and SMBX.

Regardless of whether it's been used in bullet hell games it's a well designed obstacle in this game in particular. It's not overwhelming but it's still very difficult to deal with if you're not careful. Maybe you should try actually giving developers credit where it's due instead.

[Dark Hunter]

also wow, this euphoric feeling. now THAT'S how you know a game does hard RIGHT.

...you didn't. YOU DIDN'T! ... how the hell? That one jump. THAT ONE JUMP! >_<

Because if you ask me, *that's* not the "right" kind of hard, if you're talking about what I think you are... gods. *shudder*

There are so many "That one jumps" in this game I honestly have no idea which one you're talking about.

[YelseyKing]

also wow, this euphoric feeling. now THAT'S how you know a game does hard RIGHT.

...you didn't. YOU DIDN'T! ... how the hell? That one jump. THAT ONE JUMP! >_<

Because if you ask me, *that's* not the "right" kind of hard, if you're talking about what I think you are... gods. *shudder*

There are so many "That one jumps" in this game I honestly have no idea which one you're talking about.

THIS EVIL PIECE OF *(^^%&%^(%&*aaaaagggghhhhh...

I actually literally had to cheat and use a trainer to get past that *one* jump after something like 50 attempts (a significant number considering what you have to go through just to get *to* that point) in which absolutely nothing I tried (and I tried a *lot*) made a difference. I made it up there exactly *once*, through sheer blind luck, and promptly died because I was so surprised that I lost control. I feel like there's some kind of mechanic that you can use to make yourself slide up walls somehow, but I just don't know what that *is*. (I say that, because I accidentally did it in a stage not long ago, but I have absolutely no idea how I *did* it.)

[Dark Hunter]

Ah, yeah, just jump into the wall at high speed and Meat Boy will slide upward a bit. Very useful for getting past tricky saws and a technique you will definitely NEED for Chapters 5+.

[Ditocoaf]

I feel like there's some kind of mechanic that you can use to make yourself slide up walls somehow, but I just don't know what that *is*. (I say that, because I accidentally did it in a stage not long ago, but I have absolutely no idea how I *did* it.)

It's been a while since I played, but I seem to remember that you slide up walls fairly easily just by jumping into them at an upwards angle, with upwards momentum? Maybe I'm confusing SMB physics for N physics or something.

EDIT: yeah, I just tested it. Meat Boy doesn't lose any vertical momentum when he hits a wall: if you keep the jump button held down, he'll slide up it exactly as he'd keep rising into the air from the jump. Letting go of the jump button removes all vertical momentum from the jump instantly, though.

[YelseyKing]

I tried all that. Believe me, when I say I tried everything I could think of, I *mean* I tried *everything* I could think of. I simply never could get Meat Boy to just *slide* up to the top of that wall no matter when, where, or how I hit it. He'd always fall a pixel or two short and start sliding back down. Attempting an upwards jump at *any* point would result in death. I watched two different videos of the level, and both of them got up there by way of a tiny, pixel-perfect jump. I have absolutely no idea how to make it. Trying at different speeds and different trajectories didn't help. Holding or not holding the run button made absolutely no difference. I practiced for about a half hour in an early stage, even trying to experiment with holding and releasing the jump button and how it affected my jump, and I could *never* make a jump between walls two squares apart without touching the one on the other side, no matter how hard I tried.

Basically, whoever said that one of the Skyscraper stages requires a kind of jump you're never required to make *anywhere else* in the game was absolutely right. I've gotten through half of world 7's dark world, and I can't see *any* other instances in which you absolutely *need* to do such a tiny, precise jump. That it comes at almost the very end of two long stages, in which three deaths at any point requires you to start over from the beginning further complicates matters, as it makes it incredibly difficult to practice it and try new strategies. Moreover, even if you manage to luck your way past it, you have to do it *twice* for the bandage. Like I said, after about 50 attempts, in which everything I tried proved fruitless, I officially declared it impossible for me, and unreasonable enough to just say "screw it". It's just a very bizarre, out of place, and *very* questionable design decision in a trio of stages that are otherwise extremely straightforward and not really *difficult* in the least.

I've heard that the game actually has some minor issues with XBox 360 controllers, not being quite as precise with wall-jumping or something. I don't know if that's to blame, or if there was just something that, in spite of my best efforts, I was still missing, but... that was absolutely the low point of an otherwise fun, and completely fair, game, and the one time I genuinely thought the developer made a gigantic mistake. If it's true that the bosses were rushed, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that whole Warp Zone was a last-minute "throw it in" that received little in the way of testing and quality control, as well.

[Dark Hunter]

Oh, that jump. I didn't recognize it from the screenshot for some reason.

Psychadelic Eyeball actually explains his strategy for it a bit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvk-zBY4eYQ&t=6m45s

Also, you're using an XBox controller for this? Holy crap, dude. I am impressed you made it that far with such a horrible D-pad as that controller has (unless you did it with the thumbstick, in which case, I am even more impressed).

[Willhart]

raocow is archiving higher state of consciousness. Also, that one jump was easy.

[jayScribble]

So the ending was that euphoria he mentioned earlier: the satisfaction of beating a difficult spike of the game.