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SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Zygl » 5 years ago

re: "why no midpoint?"
To my knowledge you couldn't just drop a midpoint in there and have it work, there'd be no way to make the boss start from the middle. Unless you could just put the midpoint on a separate layer and have it trigger the second half on that layer being empty, without the first half running concurrently on a restart. Aside from that you'd have to either have a super gross-looking "jump out of the car and go in this door to continue" thing or maybe you could have a separate entrance that the midpoint drops you at (It's a Wonderful Demo-style) that leads to a version of the fight that starts from the second half.
At any rate, implementing a midpoint of sorts into a fight like this is significantly easier now that LunaLua is a thing.

Also oh man Flesh Wall incoming.
SAJewers wrote:I wonder if the LunaLUA guys would be able to fix that airship piece and make it less glitchy.
It should be a fairly trivial matter to fix the glitchiness on powering up or getting hit, and I imagine it shouldn't be too challenging to fix the wall glitch either.
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Arctangent » 5 years ago

To its credit, whether intentional or not, the fact that it gave you a reliable if short-ranged way to cancel projectiles really does make it pretty interesting. A similar level with a non-glitchy method of flight and several hits of racoon tail could very well be a solid shoot 'em up level.

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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Miyoron » 5 years ago

More than them being Touhou-y stages in a Mario hack, why the heck are these stages so long. It's like 10 minutes worth of non-fun the whole time. I know Touhous have multi card boss things but goddamn.

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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Dragon Fogel » 5 years ago

Zyglrox Odyssey wrote:re: "why no midpoint?"
It shouldn't be that hard, actually. Just put an invisible axe where you start the room, and set it to start off the first phase "on death". Then set the midpoint up so that, when its layer is empty, it hides the axe's layer and starts whatever phase happens after the midpoint. Now you won't be grabbing the axe, so the first phase and all the phases triggered as a result of getting through it don't happen, and the next phase begins as soon as you go back into the level. (You could also have a power-up that serves as the trigger for these phases, this is just the most general way of doing it that I can see.) I think you'd have to put the midpoint and axe in different places, but I'm not completely sure on that.

Obviously it's not as simple as "just stick a midpoint in there", but it's not that complex.
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Kuupa » 5 years ago

I really don't blame raocow for godmode-ing this at all. Like, Super Meat Boy is hard, and it's super daunting to look at later levels, but the thing about Meat Boy is that it's exciting, fast-paced, and built in an engine that supports its own playstyle. Meat Boy levels are almost like puzzles in a way, and each level (meaning every 30 or so seconds of new content) feels super fresh and fun. These levels... it just feels like 6 straight minutes of Rinkas and Rinkas and Rinkas. For the most part, there's no "what's coming next?" like you get with good hard games (i.e. Meat Boy and real Touhou), you know that whatever is next is going to be some variation on "A bunch of Rinka generators moving in a single pattern for 2 minutes, rinse, repeat".
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby TaviTurnip » 5 years ago

There's nothing wrong with the gameplay and everything wrong with how long it takes. I think the two different kinds of Touhou movement (fairy and floating piece) are both super cool, and I super like how each obstacle was set up... ... but what exactly do you, as a designer, expect from a player when you give them one bullet with a long fire interval and absolutely nothing to interest them in the meantime? Like yeah, yay, you're dodging stuff, you're always involved with the obstacles, but... you have to look at the bottom line in the end. "This takes six minutes to complete while invincible and assuming you are doing damage as fast as possible the whole time." Literally just picture a human sitting there for six minutes holding the shoot button, not enjoying the monotonous gameplay. If there was a way for the player to accelerate the process, it would be way different (see: any scrolling shooter ever that powers you up as you progress) and you wouldn't have to experience literally the exact same thing each time.

That was more concise and to-the-point in my head. I need sleep z~z But gosh darn it, game, stop being a butthead. Don't turn a cool idea so sour. Difficulty is cool beans, but if it's boring, there's no point.
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Isrieri » 5 years ago

Difficult levels have a threshold.

They are, the majority of the time, challenging in reasonable ways when the elements are taken on their own and viewed individually.

However when actually playing it and all those elements come together + players doing their thing, you have to be wary for when a difficult level may cross into pain-in-the-ass territory. Once you've hit that, your level has failed at being fun and you, by extension, fail. When people complain about things being too hard they're really complaining about things getting annoying and repetitive.

The hard part about that is that the threshold is different for everyone. Depending on whom you're catering your level/game for, you want to set the bar as low as possible so there's fewer chances of the threshold getting hit.

Which is just another reason bullet hells do not belong in SMBX. I can't fathom anyone actively enjoying them when they are designed authentically. Its too hard. And to make them easier is to make them ultimately pointless.

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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Stink Terios » 5 years ago

Aw man, I liked the old version of the fight much better, as it was an actual MARIO fight that wasn't really unreasonable (still quit on it because I was a huge baby).
The final boss also used to be non-Touhou, while still being somewhat bullet hell.

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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Willhart » 5 years ago

Isrieri wrote:Which is just another reason bullet hells do not belong in SMBX. I can't fathom anyone actively enjoying them when they are designed authentically. Its too hard. And to make them easier is to make them ultimately pointless.
You can always try to make them short but difficult, and still give the player a little leeway. The fairy and the airship piece are too slow for that though, and the player has momentum, which makes any kind of fine control fairly difficult.

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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Ditocoaf » 5 years ago

I'm going to make a platformer game where every 6th level is from a different genre at random. Not, like, at an introductory level for that genre either, it'll be fit to the difficulty curve, so an RTS level thrown in halfway through my platformer will be as difficult as it would be halfway through an RTS game. And also all of these off-genre "levels" will be kind of clunky and rough because this is still mostly a platformer.

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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Oddwrath » 5 years ago

I know that I'm asking for spoilers, but is this all what postgame is going to be? Because if it is, then I'm done with this series(at least until we get to some more interesting stuff). It isn't fun to watch somebody constantly struggle and eventually cheat their way through boring, repetitive danmaku.

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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby KobaBeach » 5 years ago

i was catching up to vids because i was busy w/ ff3 and all i have to say is:
anon on YT comments wrote:I didn't know this was a 'Let's Pretend to Play'
can we please ban anonymousbl00dlust from commenting

and yes all these danmaku stages are p bad sorry
i say this as a danmaku fan btw (dangun feveron and battle garegga are my jam)
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Grounder » 5 years ago

Oddwrath wrote:I know that I'm asking for spoilers, but is this all what postgame is going to be? Because if it is, then I'm done with this series(at least until we get to some more interesting stuff). It isn't fun to watch somebody constantly struggle and eventually cheat their way through boring, repetitive danmaku.
There's another Klown Kopter stage, another "oh man get to the top of the stage as a fairy" segment in one level, and there's one last danmaku at the end, but the majority of it is platforming from here on out.
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Arctangent » 5 years ago

Ditocoaf wrote:so an RTS level thrown in halfway through my platformer will be as difficult as it would be halfway through an RTS game.
So basically all you'd have to do is build fifty tanks, select all units, and shift + left click the enemy base?

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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby SAJewers » 5 years ago

Zyglrox Odyssey wrote:re: "why no midpoint?"
To my knowledge you couldn't just drop a midpoint in there and have it work, there'd be no way to make the boss start from the middle. Unless you could just put the midpoint on a separate layer and have it trigger the second half on that layer being empty, without the first half running concurrently on a restart. Aside from that you'd have to either have a super gross-looking "jump out of the car and go in this door to continue" thing or maybe you could have a separate entrance that the midpoint drops you at (It's a Wonderful Demo-style) that leads to a version of the fight that starts from the second half.
At any rate, implementing a midpoint of sorts into a fight like this is significantly easier now that LunaLua is a thing.
You could probably use an instant warp to another section and make that seem seemless.

Also, why implement a midpoint wiht LunaLUA when you could just add in a respawn like in actual touhou.
Oddwrath wrote:I know that I'm asking for spoilers, but is this all what postgame is going to be? Because if it is, then I'm done with this series(at least until we get to some more interesting stuff). It isn't fun to watch somebody constantly struggle and eventually cheat their way through boring, repetitive danmaku.
It's been a while since I played the postgame levels, but aside from I think 3 levels that

are way too long for their difficulty

, and one level that I found kinda annoying, the postgame is much more tame compared to the first two special levels.

If you're curious, here's one of the postgame levels,
which also happens to be one of the two aformentioned levels:

http://imgur.com/a/QFT86
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Ditocoaf » 5 years ago

Arctangent wrote:
Ditocoaf wrote:so an RTS level thrown in halfway through my platformer will be as difficult as it would be halfway through an RTS game.
So basically all you'd have to do is build fifty tanks, select all units, and shift + left click the enemy base?
Right, right, I forgot that Starcraft single-player is as easy as Starcraft multiplayer is hard.

My point is that having a danmaku postgame level at postgame difficulty when the first 95% of the game was a platformer is kinda dumb. If you want to make a danmaku game in a mario engine just to prove that you can, then make an entire mario-engine-shooter game with a beginning, middle and end. Games are better when there's some kind of connection between one part of the game and another, instead of just randomly throwing entirely unrelated concepts at the player willy-nilly.

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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby FusionWarrior » 5 years ago

Wouldn't having an offscreen border of solid blocks around the stage prevent the platform from vanishing? can someone with the .lvl files for this game test it out? Because frankly if that tiny little edit could fix at least one of the problems these stages have been having, then it'd be a worthy change.
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby raocow » 5 years ago

FusionWarrior wrote:Wouldn't having an offscreen border of solid blocks around the stage prevent the platform from vanishing?.
I think it would, yup
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby FusionWarrior » 5 years ago

raocow wrote:
FusionWarrior wrote:Wouldn't having an offscreen border of solid blocks around the stage prevent the platform from vanishing?.
I think it would, yup
Then someone should make that one tiny fix, on any remaining platform-riding touhou levels and send it to you, because that is the most glaring oversight ever. Might not make the levels good, but at least not AS bad!
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby The Doctor » 5 years ago

Ditocoaf wrote:My point is that having a danmaku postgame level at postgame difficulty when the first 95% of the game was a platformer is kinda dumb. If you want to make a danmaku game in a mario engine just to prove that you can, then make an entire mario-engine-shooter game with a beginning, middle and end. Games are better when there's some kind of connection between one part of the game and another, instead of just randomly throwing entirely unrelated concepts at the player willy-nilly.
I mostly agree with you, but I think a few short and easy danmaku levels to serve as a sort of minigame -- a nice break from all the platforming -- would be pretty cool.

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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Zygl » 5 years ago

raocow wrote:
FusionWarrior wrote:Wouldn't having an offscreen border of solid blocks around the stage prevent the platform from vanishing?.
I think it would, yup
Unfortunately, no it doesn't. Not last I checked, anyway, the problem is that Mario hits the blocks (or the side of the screen) and stops but the npc itself keeps going.
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby FrozenQuills » 5 years ago

Zyglrox Odyssey wrote:
raocow wrote:
FusionWarrior wrote:Wouldn't having an offscreen border of solid blocks around the stage prevent the platform from vanishing?.
I think it would, yup
Unfortunately, no it doesn't. Not last I checked, anyway, the problem is that Mario hits the blocks (or the side of the screen) and stops but the npc itself keeps going.
Basically the best way to do this is to completely reprogram Mario's movements using lunalua (I've done so a while back, it was interesting).
It's not really worth fixing the glitchy npc thing.
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby memnarch » 5 years ago

Zyglrox Odyssey wrote:
raocow wrote:
FusionWarrior wrote:Wouldn't having an offscreen border of solid blocks around the stage prevent the platform from vanishing?.
I think it would, yup
Unfortunately, no it doesn't. Not last I checked, anyway, the problem is that Mario hits the blocks (or the side of the screen) and stops but the npc itself keeps going.
Yeah, just check it and it is indeed the case that the npc goes through the wall. Same thing if there's blocks off screen on the bottom too.
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby FusionWarrior » 5 years ago

Bah, then these levels should be barred if they exceed a certain "minimum playtime" or lack lunalua coding. I'd say 3 minutes max for a perfect run, 6 with midpoint, regardless of difficulty.
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Re: SMBX: SMBX Japan; Horikawa lives there!

Postby Ometeotl » 5 years ago

Redigit's biggest crime was programming in Rinka shooters.


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