A2XT: It's Over

[Crow]

It's funny the so many people were saying Dyin' For An Electrifyin' was the hardest level in the main game. I know there's probably a few more "hardest levels" that will come up.

1. That was mostly just me I think
2. It's not the absolute hardest but at least top 3 for sure

[Mabel]

Lets do a thing with multi quotes with some Orange

Really? I think the idea worked fine, you get punished for losing good powerups.

I could have at least given a beet at the midpoint tho

Ahh. See that is inherently the wrong mentality to take. You should not be punishing the player full stop; you should be rewarding them for taking the harder rout

Keep in mind that to me the bottom half was easier so the better reward went to the top half which was harder to me. A little more opinion on this could have changed things...

. Instead if you want to make a difficult level you should primarily test the level always starting from the weakest possible state. Then after that you should make sure that the player feels like they are having an easier time but that they are still getting challenged.
I did test the entire second half small, I lost maybe 5-10 demos on things that I had actually toned down before I even submitted it. When I made this level I was shooting for what rao peeps like yourself considered "world 5 tier" aka rompy first half pretty hard but doable on a few tries second half. a bit of influence here and there and somehow, I ended up exactly where I wanted to be.

The way you've gone about it has resulted in the good players enjoying the level since they managed to keep the powerups and the worse players losing the powerup and feeling punished. Losing a powerup for good feels like negative progress and for the most part that is something you should try very hard to avoid.
If I remember correctly, when Sep tested he beat it on the first try, AND lost the power up on the second half, by thinking out his path and playing carefully he managed to clear with moderate effort. and as expected Rao breezed through fairly well, since I wasnt going for Standard W5 difficulty but rao-tier W5 difficulty, here we are.

Here - have an Extra Credits video on difficulty.

EC is godlike I do try to keep these things in mind. not gonna say what I came up with was great and the criticism is well needed as im only a scrub at design tho.

Really? I think the idea worked fine, you get punished for losing good powerups.

Yes, you get punished by having to handle a section that is incredibly difficult without those powerups... without those powerups. Trust me, that second half brutalized me and sort of didn't feel in line with the rest of the level's difficulty. It's just... no, no, you don't do that to someone, you make the level balanced regardless of the character's powerup state. I'll give you a bit of advice, even if I haven't made as many levels: Treat the obstacle as if Super Mario or Small Mario is the base, depending on if it is a more enemy-based section or platforming-based section. Definitely at the same time, you need to take into consideration the usage of tier two powers and everything, and if you don't want a certain powerup to be used in a section, you filter it or just don't give it out.
I did test as small demo and I got through fine, then again Im the creator so ofc it was ez for me but then other tester got through just as easy so it seemed fine to me

What you did instead was take it that you would have had Ice Demo... which becomes impossible to obtain after dying in the second half, which makes that second half of the level really nuts to do. Again, I'll repeat: I was only able to do it after essentially perfecting the timing of when to jump through everything so none of the enemies murdered me. This is like... what should I call this... midpoint powerup discrimination? Not quite Big Mario Discrimination, but I'm just trying to get across what went wrong in execution with your idea, like docopoper already did, really, I'm just expanding a little on that.

One other thing about the second half that managed to repeatedly get me. I don't know if this is just a problem I have or what, but dealing with bouncing enemies on an upward slope is such a gigantic pain in the ass. You can't reliably jump on them because you're generally always lower than they are, and going under them is equally risky because you're going upwards, and may just as easily run into them. Ergo, that bouncing rock near the very beginning probably counted for a good third of the deaths in that stage on my end.
why didint you just wait for the rocks to get off the slope then spinjump on it? its so much easier to wait at the bottom then pass it, the speed of the rocks are just slow enough to where you wont get overwhelmed by them

Yeah, we saw how easy that stage is if you have the white catnip. But what if you didn't take the upper path, or if you got blindsided by one of the many, many flying objects in that stage? Of which, I should add, there is no shortage of, with nearly every type making an appearance (rinkas, snifit bullets, homing goopas, bullet bills from all different angles, bubbled enemies, hammer bros., bouncing rocks). Add in the rain effect that can obscure some of these hazards, and that is a *lot* of chances to get hit, of which only two low-tier powerups that are almost useless for dealing with the onslaught provided in that section is just not enough. It just gets to be too much for most players to deal with.
Cacti are only ineffective against the rocks, bullets and tanks, the rest is doable with just fire
And then there was going to be an annoying boss at the end of that? Thank goodness *that* was excised, or I'd have probably thrown my controller through my monitor.
It was optional and skippable, in fact it was hidden in a way you would never even find it without the library telling you or with some other risks
I ranted about this stage before, and was basically shut down with "our testers had no problems with it", as though that's the ultimate response to any future complaints. But it's not; it's a cop-out, I'm sorry. Unless a stage was tested in every conceivable way by players at every conceivable level of skill and familiarity with Mario and the SMBX engine, that's not enough of a sampling to just blow off any further criticisms. Don't misunderstand me, I think the QA team did an excellent overall job of keeping this game at a far more reasonable level than ASMT, A2MT, or ASMBXT. But they're still only human, and until a game is released to a wider audience, there are still things that may slip under the radar.

boop.

[YelseyKing]

If I remember correctly, when Sep tested he beat it on the first try, AND lost the power up on the second half, by thinking out his path and playing carefully he managed to clear with moderate effort.

You did it again. Just because "your testers" and raocow had no problems with a stage (and the latter only did because he had a completely stage-changing powerup), does *not* make mean it is not still flawed in some ways, nor does it grant you a "Get Out of Criticism Free" card.

and as expected Rao breezed through fairly well, since I wasnt going for Standard W5 difficulty but rao-tier W5 difficulty, here we are.

That's all fine and dandy, if A2XT hadn't explicitly been advertised as being for a general audience, and not more or less solely for a raocow LP, as every other A-Something-Something-T has been. That means you can't get away with defending things quite as easily by saying it was "aimed at raocow".

why didint you just wait for the rocks to get off the slope then spinjump on it? its so much easier to wait at the bottom then pass it, the speed of the rocks are just slow enough to where you wont get overwhelmed by them

I could have done that. Or you could have, you know, not put an object bouncing down an upward slope, which *requires* either blind luck, pixel-perfect reflexes, or an irritating five-second wait (not significant, but it gets *really* old after dying 20 times) to get past at the very start of the section.

Cacti are only ineffective against the rocks, bullets and tanks, the rest is doable with just fire

Largely a moot point, since those are basically what amounts to the better majority of that stage's difficulty, *and* it's quite a feat just being able to *keep* your mushroom long enough to even *get* fireballs with all the stuff flying at you.

And of course it's *doable*. Just about *everything* is "doable". Completing the entire game with a total of 0 demos is "doable". But "doable" and "reasonable" are two different beasts entirely.

[Leet]

well its not like raocow is the only person accustomed to harder difficulties. its just an example of a hard-without-being-ridiculous difficulty system. if the levels in this game had the difficulties of most normal nintendo games, especially the newer ones, the entire game would be super easy except for a small handful of levels, which is just no fun.

and really baker street isnt that hard compared to other levels in this world, and even that's not saying too much imo. overall this game was easier than i was expecting, after the thing that was asmbxt.

[Mabel]

If I remember correctly, when Sep tested he beat it on the first try, AND lost the power up on the second half, by thinking out his path and playing carefully he managed to clear with moderate effort.

You did it again. Just because "your testers" and raocow had no problems with a stage (and the latter only did because he had a completely stage-changing powerup), does *not* make mean it is not still flawed in some ways, nor does it grant you a "Get Out of Criticism Free" card.
Again, not saying its a free pass or anything or that the level was perfect, just saying that our QA passed it as acceptable difficulty and I aggreed since again, everyone who I had seen so far got through with relatively no trouble except pholtos since the hitboxes of some bullets were bugged

and as expected Rao breezed through fairly well, since I wasnt going for Standard W5 difficulty but rao-tier W5 difficulty, here we are.

That's all fine and dandy, if A2XT hadn't explicitly been advertised as being for a general audience, and not more or less solely for a raocow LP, as every other A-Something-Something-T has been. That means you can't get away with defending things quite as easily by saying it was "aimed at raocow".
true, its not an excuse, but it was the though process that went through when the level was made, it wasnt until sometime before beta testing we decided to reach a wider audience, even then it was still considered acceptable.

why didint you just wait for the rocks to get off the slope then spinjump on it? its so much easier to wait at the bottom then pass it, the speed of the rocks are just slow enough to where you wont get overwhelmed by them

I could have done that. Or you could have, you know, not put an object bouncing down an upward slope, which *requires* either blind luck, pixel-perfect reflexes, or an irritating five-second wait (not significant, but it gets *really* old after dying 20 times) to get past at the very start of the section.
It really does not require either of those first 2 things, and the 3rd one isint really 5 seconds, youre kinda overexaggerating there

Cacti are only ineffective against the rocks, bullets and tanks, the rest is doable with just fire

Largely a moot point, since those are basically what amounts to the better majority of that stage's difficulty, *and* it's quite a feat just being able to *keep* your mushroom long enough to even *get* fireballs with all the stuff flying at you.

And of course it's *doable*. Just about *everything* is "doable". Completing the entire game with a total of 0 demos is "doable". But "doable" and "reasonable" are two different beasts entirely.

considering the level of difficulty surrounding the level(World 5 kindly kicks everyones ass and honestly for awhile I though I had the easier stage next to City Run), this one is definably more on the reasonable side, (insert AnonomyousBloodlust quote here)

[YelseyKing]

I'm not actually going to press this issue any further, since we'd just be going in circles, but I would like to add that I do not believe that Baker Street was irredeemable garbage. It had, as I said before, great audio/visuals, playing out like a twisted film noir-type thing, and the first half was a lot of fun. I'm basically saying that it's one or two added powerups or removed enemies away from being a *great* level. I just feel like there's simply too much going on, and simply not enough "let".

That said, I'm sorry for coming down so hard on you, Mabel. I'm actually probably just somewhat biased here. I freely admit that I'm generally terrible at dodging lots of random flying objects, which was the difference maker here, and why I singled this stage out for my rage. Most of the stages in world 5 gave me some trouble, yes. (10-20 demos was generally the norm, due to... well, to be honest, this was the first time I'd really played a full game on SMBX, so I'd say I didn't do *too* terribly considering that...) But most of those were more about platforming than dodging enemies, which I'm significantly more competent at, so almost all the demos in those stages amounted to me being sloppy, reckless, or careless. With Baker Street, I felt genuinely overwhelmed and not always in control. There were a couple others that I felt that way about later on, as well... unfortunate, but I still try to see the good in each stage, nonetheless.

But, you know, I gave it some thought the other night and... I'm not really sure there's a great deal I'd actively want changed in A2XT. It is what it is. Every game has "That One Level" (or multiples thereof); I may rage about them while I'm playing them, but it doesn't mean I don't still love the game on the whole. This is exactly how I feel about A2XT.

That said, I am not at liberty to discuss some of the things I may have said about said stages on my IRC channel, and where their creators could shove it.

[Doctor Shemp]

I can't even remember what I said about Baker Street during beta testing. I remember thinking it wasn't amongst the hardest levels of World 5 but, considering that World 5 had so much cheap bullshit when I played it, that's fairly faint praise.

[Mabel]

I can't even remember what I said about Baker Street during beta testing. I remember thinking it wasn't amongst the hardest levels of World 5 but, considering that World 5 had so much cheap bullshit when I played it, that's fairly faint praise.

you didint say much and you god moded the second half so....yeah


anyways here my playthrough including the secret boss battle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqQYN97 ... e=youtu.be

[Doctor Shemp]

I can't even remember what I said about Baker Street during beta testing. I remember thinking it wasn't amongst the hardest levels of World 5 but, considering that World 5 had so much cheap bullshit when I played it, that's fairly faint praise.

you didint say much and you god moded the second half so....yeah

Sounds about right.

[Septentrion Pleiades]

If I remember correctly, when Sep tested he beat it on the first try, AND lost the power up on the second half, by thinking out his path and playing carefully he managed to clear with moderate effort. and as expected Rao breezed through fairly well, since I wasnt going for Standard W5 difficulty but rao-tier W5 difficulty, here we are.

You do not remember correctly.

http://youtu.be/1pESFM6z7kA?t=7m13s here's the video. The first part of the video is a spoiler for a different level.

This level used to have a BS invisibility part.

[Mabel]

If I remember correctly, when Sep tested he beat it on the first try, AND lost the power up on the second half, by thinking out his path and playing carefully he managed to clear with moderate effort. and as expected Rao breezed through fairly well, since I wasnt going for Standard W5 difficulty but rao-tier W5 difficulty, here we are.

You do not remember correctly.

http://youtu.be/1pESFM6z7kA?t=7m13s here's the video. The first part of the video is a spoiler for a different level.

This level used to have a BS invisibility part.

well, technically speaking you made it to where the level ends now with no real difficulty :D

It was part of the theme sorta(LaTale had invisible monsters but I had no way of giving them any indication they were there so I just made an invisible section(that was later made optional for a free onion, a 3up, and the secret boss)

haha, I just noticed the text in my level was changed to "chopping up random women" instead of "chopping up random white women", as far as i know no one got triggered by that in testing...its fine but still never noticed that til now...

[tigermoon]

Just to add to the "this level is harder than this one" conversation... in World 5, I died 32 times in Dyin' for an Electrifyin', 25 in City Run, 14 in Fun Times at the Laundromat, 11 in Lightning in a Box, 10 in Superfluous Security, 9 in Fun Fungus Funtion, 8 in Baker Street, 3 in Grand Trunk Arena, 1 in Crazed Circuitry, 1 offering to the Flesh Lord in I Do Think You Fit This Shoe, and the rest were all death-free, including what's coming in the morning.
So... yeah, Baker Street in its current form felt like fairly average "World 5" difficulty to me. No, I didn't use the Catnip, I didn't even know it existed until raocow got it.

[YelseyKing]

Just to add to the "this level is harder than this one" conversation... in World 5, I died 32 times in Dyin' for an Electrifyin', 25 in City Run, 14 in Fun Times at the Laundromat, 11 in Lightning in a Box, 10 in Superfluous Security, 9 in Fun Fungus Funtion, 8 in Baker Street, 3 in Grand Trunk Arena, 1 in Crazed Circuitry, 1 offering to the Flesh Lord in I Do Think You Fit This Shoe, and the rest were all death-free, including what's coming in the morning.
So... yeah, Baker Street in its current form felt like fairly average "World 5" difficulty to me. No, I didn't use the Catnip, I didn't even know it existed until raocow got it.

Let's see... Mine were...

Dyin' for an Electrifyin' - 1 (Yes, 1. This stage gave me... next to no problems.)
Parc du Debonair - 3
Crazed Circuitry - 3
Fun Times at the Laundromat - 15
I Do Think You Fit in This Shoe - 5*
Grand Trunk Arena - 2
Lightning in a Box - 17
EuroShell R&D - 1
Superfluous Security - 17 (most of which were to the normal exit's boss)
Fun Fungus Function - 24 (Every single demo came from exploring and trying crazy stuff to find the secret leek. I got the normal one on my first attempt)
Baker Street - 27 (1 to the first half, 26 to the second)
City Run - 16
Final Stage Which raocow Has Not Done - 0 (Oddly easy for a final stage).

*Plus one, because I jumped into the Flesh Lord while checking. If you try the music cheat, it says something like "You're worried about music at a time like this?!"

So. Huh. I did better on this world than I thought, except for Baker Street. I guess all this proves is... each of us is better at certain things than others. I pretty well aced the stage many other people here said was one of the hardest in the game. *shrug* I... shall say no more.

[Bean]

I'm getting there with my catching up as I'm through the first video of World 4. There are a lot of interesting levels like the one where the blocks fall if any one of them are taken out. You all that worked on this are doing a fine job with balancing things out in terms of gimmick levels like that to harder standard ones where you have to hit all four switches in a lengthy swimming level to get the true goal.

It's fun to watch, especially with all the random, sometimes in-house humor thrown in.

[Voltgloss]

Argh, missed a character change block glitch-into-the-wall bug! (at 1:10)

The same bug used to be in Ohh No A Ghost but was found there and fixed. Didn't realize the same issue was in Fun Fungus Function. The moral: Never put a character change block right next to a wall.

[Voltgloss]

haha, I just noticed the text in my level was changed to "chopping up random women" instead of "chopping up random white women", as far as i know no one got triggered by that in testing...its fine but still never noticed that til now...

I flagged that to be changed. It was one of two changes I requested (the other a graphical replacement elsewhere in the game, now removed) because the content could be seen as insensitive.

[SAJewers]

I really wish I did more to that level. Looking back, it feels like I mailed that level in.

[Maiku Wotaharu]

Um...what's up with the title change in what used to be called "Sheath Courage Returns"?

[Doctor Shemp]

haha, I just noticed the text in my level was changed to "chopping up random women" instead of "chopping up random white women", as far as i know no one got triggered by that in testing...its fine but still never noticed that til now...

I flagged that to be changed. It was one of two changes I requested (the other a graphical replacement elsewhere in the game, now removed) because the content could be seen as insensitive.

What was the graphical replacement? I don't remember that one. You can spoiler it if you prefer. Personally I and a couple of others also flagged a line in the EoW 7 Cutscene, or more accurately the name of a character, so there's that.

The character's name was originally "Homeless Vermin" for no particular reason other than he looked a little dishevelled. He wasn't a villain or anything: he just had one line of exposition, and it wasn't even related to that Ayn Rand stuff earlier, so it wasn't even approaching being relevant on political satire grounds or anything like that.

Anyway best and worst:
Key to the City Level
Dyin' for an Electrifyin'. It's a solid level that knows exactly what it wants to do and achieves it. The gameplay is focussed on electrified water throughout and it explores several permutations of that at a good pace, without switching too quickly to the next one or dwelling too long on each one. More importantly it also gives a genuine choice on which character is best, with each having pros and cons for dealing with the challenges, while most levels have a definite best character. Personally, I prefer Kood for this level, but that's my playstyle, and I've seen others do it just as well with the sisters or raocow.

Most Likely to Fieldtest ED-209 Level
During beta testing this would have gone to Parc du Debonair by a huge margin, but in its refined state it's significantly improved, so instead I'll give it to I Do Think You Fit This Shoe for being so obviously cheeseable. It had to be made that way too since there was no way anyone could think of to remove the cheeseability without making it a difficult slog.

[SAJewers]

Um...what's up with the title change in what used to be called "Sheath Courage Returns"?

I changed it because I hated that name.

[jayScribble]

Modern Architecture world ends with Japantown (or Japan's equivalent of Chinatown).

"Sheath/Keith Courage, part deus" is a mechanically unique level (the main one being the extra health) that take advantage of Sheath's/Link's abilities, save for the shield. Otherwise, it's a good and fair level due to the amount of health you get if you're full, and the boss is a joke if you know what to do.

[Voltgloss]

What was the graphical replacement? I don't remember that one. You can spoiler it if you prefer.

It was a bearded Birdo (I assume a "Beardo") in the Sheath section of the last level of World 8. My concern was that the bearded sprite could have been interpreted as a religious stereotype.

[Sebby19]

Keith Courage was the first video game I owned, so I love you SAjewers for the level. I do feel it could have been better though. My main beef with the level is the background in the boss level. It doesn't fit the size of the room. I was actually quite disoriented when I started walking left, and the scrolling of the BG was slower than I anticipated. For a moment, I thought the floor was icy!

[Demolition]

The character's name was originally "Homeless Vermin" for no particular reason other than he looked a little dishevelled. He wasn't a villain or anything: he just had one line of exposition, and it wasn't even related to that Ayn Rand stuff earlier, so it wasn't even approaching being relevant on political satire grounds or anything like that.

Explanation:

originally the character was a toad and his name was "Hideous Toad" or something like that, don't recall why. When the toads were replaced I changed the name to something else insulting. I don't care it was changed again it was a stupid line anyway.

I really didn't mean anything insulting by it at all.

[docopoper]

Dying in "Sheath/Keith Courage, part deus" is the most terrifying thing ever.