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A Second Mario Thing: free alex

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby raocow » 5 years ago

yeah dude has been nagging at me since the something awful days, and somewhere during this we became 'internet friends' due to exposure I guess
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby S.N.N. » 5 years ago

The level could be made so much more tolerable if there were like, one or two blocks here and there that you could pause on and catch a breather. Even the -K levels from DKC: Tropical Freeze, despite being muscle memory gauntlets, had a couple of spots where you could regain your momentum.

Like, the design here is good, but it's still flawed in a sense.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby anonymousbl00dlust » 5 years ago

S.N.N. wrote:The level could be made so much more tolerable if there were like, one or two blocks here and there that you could pause on and catch a breather. Even the -K levels from DKC: Tropical Freeze, despite being muscle memory gauntlets, had a couple of spots where you could regain your momentum.

Like, the design here is good, but it's still flawed in a sense.
hmm.

I agree that adding some safe spots would make the level less stressful, but it introduces a different problem. Things are designed in such a way that the best strategy is to rush forward without thinking. When you add safe spots to this kind of level, it encourages the player to be more cautious. He/She ends up slowing down and over-analyzing things-- you've seen how many times raocow has died from stalling in front of visually complicated obstacles. None of those deaths added to anything.

So yes, the level is more stressful without safe spots. But I don't think the safe spots would make things any easier.

Besides, the stressfulness of the level is part of the fun, imo.
alex2 wrote:It's all a matter of taste.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Willhart » 5 years ago

anonymousbl00dlust wrote:Besides, the stressfulness of the level is part of the fun, imo.
It did not really sound like he was having that much fun. The level was not too long looking at the gameplay though, so it might be learnable given enough time + retries.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby sedron » 5 years ago

I think, judged as a normal level, B-Side is pretty awful. I totally believe that anonymousbl00dlust can beat it easily tool-less, and some obstacles can be passed simply by rushing. However, rushing isn't foolproof, and one has to take into account that level designers are simply better at their own levels (in addition to anon's high difficulty threshold.) There's still very little leeway, and I don't think that the average player (or even above-average player,) would be able to react quickly enough to everything to make rushing really viable. As anon agreed, it could use some more checkpoints.

All that said, I think this level is fantastic, just in a different metric. Yeah, the average person won't be able to do much. They aren't the target audience though. It's made for really good players, ie. the kinds that would actually go out of their way to get all of the Parrot Coins in the preceding levels. TASers and the like can also appreciate the level. When you see the level played well (like anon's video showed,) it's great to watch. It's very well designed, but uses inherently different design philosophies than most "normal," level design, so holding it to the same standards seems wrong.

B-Side isn't going to look very good when raocow plays it, which is fine. I don't think he really fits under the target demographic for the level right now, which is also fine. Watching him stumble through isn't going to really highlight how fantastic the level design here is in the same way as watching it all in a fluid motion or playing it yourself. I think comparing it to poetry like rao did makes a lot of sense, honestly.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby ano0maly » 5 years ago

Shard1697 wrote:
AUS wrote: Not really!?
Unless you mean, there's someone out there who has achieved god-tier platforming skills in Nitroid that everything in the game is a walk in the park for them, or you're making up false definitions of words that already have definitions (such as the word boring).

You realize boring is like: slow, tedious, repetitive, uninteresting, etc right?
You... do realize that those thing are themselves subjective, right?
What people consider too slow/tedious/repetitive/uninteresting/etc, ie boring, varies wildly from person to person. Because it's subjective.
Yeah fun is subjective we've heard that a bunch of times already.

But there's a problem when someone is being snarky and relentless towards the said game, with no regards to other people that hear that, to the point that you feel bad for liking it. I've already seen this happen in this thread and it's insulting to the creator of the game and the fans.

"Subjective" means a given person may enjoy it. And if the person can't enjoy it because someone else is ruining the experience with such comments, there's something wrong.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby leod » 5 years ago

if your fun is ruined because other people dont enjoy it then somethings wrong
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby ano0maly » 5 years ago

There's a difference between not enjoying it and swooping in to make a useless comment just for one's amusement that no one else shares, no matter how much people tell you to cut it out.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby leod » 5 years ago

okay cool nobody cares about what you say either so cut it out thanks
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby CM30 » 5 years ago

Well, that level was sure something.

But yeah, my opinion on it is that the level kind of feels like a wasted opportunity. I mean, the graphics and music are incredible and the ideas used in the level design are also really well done, but it just falls down because of a difficulty level somewhat set at 'just below kaizo'. Kind of reminds of Japanese hack Super Mario LD in that sense, another game where the levels have interesting ideas but the difficulty is just set too high.

It just makes me wish anonymousbloodlust tried making some easy/reasonable levels for a change. I'd love to see what they'd be like.

TLDR: Nice aesthetics, nice level ideas/design (for sadists), but too hard for any reasonable person to play.

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Lets play "talkhaus flamewar"

Postby anonymousbl00dlust » 5 years ago

ano0maly wrote:There's a difference between not enjoying it and swooping in to make a useless comment just for one's amusement that no one else shares, no matter how much people tell you to cut it out.
Criticism is good, so long as it's not dogmatic. The only thing that really irritates me is when people write-off a level as objectively bad, just because they personally don't like it.

(Speaking of which, I was expecting the worst today after that flame-war greeting fiasco. But all the criticism I've gotten so far has been really constructive. So... I just wanted to say thanks. Talkhaus is a pretty cool guy.)
alex2 wrote:It's all a matter of taste.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby memnarch » 5 years ago

Man, what a difficult looking level. Lots of trial and error; at least the level doesn't make you reload everytime you'd die.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:yes. (edit: don't click if you are a rao or a cow)

So something messed up with caorao's rom. Ended up starting at the end, then halfway through the game. Because, you know, there haven't been enough disasters with this level yet.

I imagine a whole bunch of people are not going to like what they see. But I stand by what I said before-- the level is well-designed. It's just that it was designed for an alternate-reality-cao whose skill level after beating s-mario continued to steadily climb.

Commence the backlash!
Jeez, that's a crazy level. I'm not even sure how you managed to miss some of those obstacles or stay alive seemingly being offscreen. :shock:
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Alice » 5 years ago

anonymousbl00dlust wrote:I agree that adding some safe spots would make the level less stressful, but it introduces a different problem. Things are designed in such a way that the best strategy is to rush forward without thinking. When you add safe spots to this kind of level, it encourages the player to be more cautious. He/She ends up slowing down and over-analyzing things-- you've seen how many times raocow has died from stalling in front of visually complicated obstacles. None of those deaths added to anything.

So yes, the level is more stressful without safe spots. But I don't think the safe spots would make things any easier.
I think this is a time simple graphics could have helped a little with difficulty. Making the background black, foreground blocks white, and anything that could hurt you red or something could help with figuring out where you should be heading. And splitting the level up a little more (separating some of the parts a bit and adding in checkpoints there) would probably help it feel less infuriating. Simply reloading at the beginning of the area and seemingly not having lives was a good choice though I think.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 5 years ago

If we use the metric that has been used for most of the LP, AKA judging a game as a game, this was one of the most horrible things ever. Still exceeds Further Over There by a long shot.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby anonymousbl00dlust » 5 years ago

Septentrion Pleiades wrote:If we use the metric that has been used for most of the LP, AKA judging a game as a game, this was one of the most horrible things ever. Still exceeds Further Over There by a long shot.
Truth be told, anyone who dislikes my level is a racist pedophile.

bam.
alex2 wrote:It's all a matter of taste.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby AUS » 5 years ago

anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
I honestly don't believe you. Like, are you just saying that to sound pretty, or do you somehow have some upper level knowledge that lets you know this?

I doubt that any player has beaten it first time. I also doubt that enough players have played the level for you to notice that each trap has at least been beaten without future knowledge.

Just going by the video you posted alone, I seriously doubt that the level can be beaten without trial by dying..which I don't mind too much, I just seriously have a hard time thinking that some of these can be beaten without knowing what's happening. (see: that weird autoscroll segment in particular, not the final segment)
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby S.N.N. » 5 years ago

anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
Except the part with the sideways Thwomp right after the Grinder bit. There's no way anybody could predict that, and raocow even alluded to it in the video.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 5 years ago

S.N.N. wrote:
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
Except the part with the sideways Thwomp right after the Grinder bit. There's no way anybody could predict that, and raocow even alluded to it in the video.
Obviously, this level is Jedi training. Remember when roacow was first killed when the entire level moved down for the first time? He should not have spinjump that high before it moved.

Clearly, this is a perfectly crafted level. It's a good thing the creator is around to point out how great his level is.
Last edited by Septentrion Pleiades on 14 Aug 2014, 17:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby anonymousbl00dlust » 5 years ago

AUS wrote:
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:All the obstacles in my level can be beaten on the players first attempt without any 'future predicting'.
I honestly don't believe you. Like, are you just saying that to sound pretty, or do you somehow have some upper level knowledge that lets you know this?

I doubt that any player has beaten it first time. I also doubt that enough players have played the level for you to notice that each trap has at least been beaten without future knowledge.

Just going by the video you posted alone, I seriously doubt that the level can be beaten without trial by dying..which I don't mind too much, I just seriously have a hard time thinking that some of these can be beaten without knowing what's happening. (see: that weird autoscroll segment in particular, not the final segment)
I checked it by looking at the possible places/states the player could be at when an obstacle appeared onscreen, then did my best to make sure each of those entry points was survivable. The only real exception is the first obstacle in raocow's video. If you can't tell that the layer 2 smash is coming, it will get you once. I tried to make it as clear as possible that the layer smash was coming, but couldn't really think of a good way to do it. Since it comes immediately after a checkpoint and is fairly interesting, I left that obstacle in.

I feel like you aren't differentiating 'possible' and 'likely'. Yes, you need really fast reactions. Yes, it's extremely unlikely a person would make it first-try. But it's still possible.
alex2 wrote:It's all a matter of taste.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 5 years ago

anonymousbl00dlust wrote:I feel like you aren't differentiating 'possible' and 'likely'. Yes, you need really fast reactions. Yes, it's extremely unlikely a person would make it first-try. But it's still possible.
You also need to no what not to do before there are any signs. You might as will make autoscroll hallways with dead ends and say "it's possible, but unlikely."
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby truthordeal » 5 years ago

Kinda wishing this had ended at the Nitori.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby MrDeePay » 5 years ago

anonymousbl00dlust wrote:You all realize it's just a videogame, right? You talk about this as if you're sending him high explosives.
People warn others of terrible games all the time. This is nothing new.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote: Well, I can beat this pretty easily without savestates. I definitely can't beat Cool or Cruel without tool use. So there's that.
You're the author of a supposedly non-Kaizo level. You should be expected to.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Grounder » 5 years ago

I sense a "protect the feelings of the creator" week incoming.

It looks to me like crud, its sole saving grace being that you can't really die
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 5 years ago

Most of the problem with this level are pretty self-evident. If Anon didn't start going off about how fair and immaculate this level was, it would have likely avoided most criticisms.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: it's almost over don't worry

Postby Zygl » 5 years ago

Yeah this level doesn't look humanly playable in the slightest. And yes anonymousbl00dlust, I'm aware you can beat it without savestates, but I'm not entirely convinced you're not some kind of machine sent from the future to inflict pain on raocow with Mario levels. For those of us definitely-humans this is completely over-the-top in terms of difficulty.
It does look nice, though, I'll give you that. Also I've been (very slowly) working out how to do something like that respawn-at-the-start-of-the-room thing for the past couple of weeks, so good job doing that way before I thought to do it.

e: I'm being told that was actually huflungdu who set that up. Still, though, it's a good idea and pretty well-executed, good job to huflungdu and whoever it was that decided to put something like that in the level in the first place, if the level were at a remotely reasonable difficulty it would've made a huge difference.
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