A Second Mario Thing: free alex

[Doctor Shemp]

Japanese SMW hacks are only boring by default at the start if you think hacks need chocolate to be interesting, which you may, but I don't. I'd be perfectly happy to watch and play a hack that didn't change anything about SMW except the levels if the level design was good. They could be boring through bad design but that's not inherent to the genre, unless you're saying Japanese romhackers don't make good levels as a rule.

[Leet]

The early VIP levels weren't boring at all. It's escalation from normality to insanity, not boring to interesting.

Which is a very good thing, too, because since the early levels are easier, less time is spent on them, and the more "crazy" levels take more time because they are harder and near the end. If anything, it's an excellent design decision to escalate custom stuff.

[CM30]

Except whenever someone's first time levels get into VIP (hence a quality failure), they usually get stuck at the start somewhere. Which means playing through levels by amateurs before those by skilled level designers, at least most of the time.

Also, while a good level doesn't have to be chocolate* (and labels are completely stupid in general), it should at least be memorable.

Kind of like the levels in Wario Land 4. Or Yoshi's Island. Or the Donkey Kong Country series. Or heck, a lot of modern Mario game levels.

They made sure each level had a new idea, a new gimmick, maybe a new music track, etc. It's why I kind of really, really love Wario Land 4 to be honest. Yeah it was short, but it had everything new in every level. The level theme was always unique. The music was unique to each level. All foreground and background tiles (bar basic stuff like coins) were unique to each level. The main 'gimmick' was different in each level. Yet it never felt overly tech demoy like say, Brutal Mario. Cause each mechanic fit in really well with the environment and was used to its full potential.

Same with the later Donkey Kong Country levels. Rare was pretty damn good at varying up their levels and making them feel unique (and equally good at pun based level names), but then Retro Studios took it even further:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3adTY5elog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSxDAyit9ak

A lot of hacks (especially Japanese ones) never bother to even try anything as interesting as those games. They just use the same concepts and the same enemies in the same generic overused level themes and save whatever tiny spark of originality they actually have for the endgame.

* Although in general, the concept of 'vanilla' has always struck me as a cop out. Nintendo (and professional game devs) never make vanilla games. They never reuse the graphics and concepts for two or more games in a row, unless they're the likes of EA pumping out yearly sports games. Super Mario Bros 3 never looked like 1 and 2 and World never looked like 3. A 'real' sequel to Super Mario World (like a lot of these games claim to be) would be massively different from the original game in every possible aspect, like how each Nintendo made Mario games is massively different from the last one.

[yogui]

raocow you idiot you disabled BG1 at 17:33 that's why you can't see the ground it's not a glitch of the level now go try it again and suffer more
edit: oh you noticed
Is that you playing Mario 3DWorld?

[Doctor Shemp]

Although in general, the concept of 'vanilla' has always struck me as a cop out. Nintendo (and professional game devs) never make vanilla games. They never reuse the graphics and concepts for two or more games in a row, unless they're the likes of EA pumping out yearly sports games. Super Mario Bros 3 never looked like 1 and 2 and World never looked like 3. A 'real' sequel to Super Mario World (like a lot of these games claim to be) would be massively different from the original game in every possible aspect, like how each Nintendo made Mario games is massively different from the last one.

When was that last the case for Mario though? NSMBU is very similar to NSMBWii which is very similar to NSMB, as is NSMB 2, with a gimmick stolen from Wario added in. 3D World is very similar to 3D Land which itself is pretty much NSMB made 3D. Galaxy 2 is very similar to Galaxy. Going back further, SMB2 Japan was very similar to SMB.

I agree with you on the other points about every level feeling special. If it's a choice between interesting technology and bad design or same-old technology and good design though I'll choose the latter. Obviously I'd prefer both.

[Leet]

i still wish that there had been a Super Mario World 2 that expanded upon SMW the same way SMB3 did to SMW, instead of the series' 2d platformers disappearing for a thousand years only to return rather poor

[CM30]

Although in general, the concept of 'vanilla' has always struck me as a cop out. Nintendo (and professional game devs) never make vanilla games. They never reuse the graphics and concepts for two or more games in a row, unless they're the likes of EA pumping out yearly sports games. Super Mario Bros 3 never looked like 1 and 2 and World never looked like 3. A 'real' sequel to Super Mario World (like a lot of these games claim to be) would be massively different from the original game in every possible aspect, like how each Nintendo made Mario games is massively different from the last one.

When was that last the case for Mario though? NSMBU is very similar to NSMBWii which is very similar to NSMB, as is NSMB 2, with a gimmick stolen from Wario added in. 3D World is very similar to 3D Land which itself is pretty much NSMB made 3D. Galaxy 2 is very similar to Galaxy. Going back further, SMB2 Japan was very similar to SMB.

I agree with you on the other points about every level feeling special. If it's a choice between interesting technology and bad design or same-old technology and good design though I'll choose the latter. Obviously I'd prefer both.

True on the similar recent Mario games. However, that's generally seen as one of the biggest problems with the series at the moment, Nintendo playing it too 'safe' and not really trying so hard like they did in the olden days. I think this post sums it up:

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2014/ ... -3d-world/

Nintendo doesn’t make worlds anymore.

Too much emphasis on level design at the expense of all else, not enough on making an interesting world for the player to explore or having interesting new ideas.

And yes, good level design is better than good ideas. But a decent game needs both, and frankly, I don't think many ROM hacks, fan games or anything else of the sort seem to have gotten the balance just right. It's either boring ideas with decent level design or boring level design with decent ideas with most hacks and fan games.

i still wish that there had been a Super Mario World 2 that expanded upon SMW the same way SMB3 did to SMW, instead of the series' 2d platformers disappearing for a thousand years only to return rather poor

Doesn't just about everyone?

It probably would have helped the SNES more too, since another 'epic' Mario platformer would have probably helped Nintendo utterly curb stomp Sega rather than just about come out on top like they did in the day. As someone pointed out in the past, it's the point when Nintendo stopped making interesting Mario platformers when their competitors actually managed to gain the upper hand.

[jayScribble]

Well, by design it did what it intended to do: it's just that it does it in unfair and unfun ways, even with a powerup fountain "further over there" has. Some of the parts were more "fair" than the rest, such as the inverted sections, but still.

To keep things short, a list of all the wrongs:

• Enemy spam
• Danmaku
• Tight corridors
• Very few enemy blindspots/safespots
• Forced waiting while in peril
• Boo cloud too close to solid ground
• Visual annoyance with the black and white flux in the last section

Yes, there is all this bad design decisions, but the sections alone in concept could make some interesting levels, such as the "autumn attack" section. It's just that all of it is within one level.

A pleasant bonus at the end of the video after all that mess.

[Willhart]

Those boos remind me of Kero Blaster and Cave Story. They have cute cat eyes.

[CM30]

That last level could have made a pretty nice special world all by itself, had it been split into multiple levels and massively toned down in difficulty.

Unfortunately, as per the standards of the time, everything ended up in one really long stage instead.

[Luigifan2010]

jesus christ that level today.
oh my god.

[pholtos]

Oh gah... raocow that level physically hurt my being.

[Ometeotl]

I fear that raocow might be dangerously insane.

[Jesuiscontent]

Amazing level but a bit on the easy side - anonymousbl00dlust

[Sebby19]

A 'real' sequel to Super Mario World (like a lot of these games claim to be) would be massively different from the original game in every possible aspect, like how each Nintendo made Mario games is massively different from the last one.

That's funny, because that is exactly what Yoshi's Island was.

And sorry raocow, I couldn't hear you over the Super Mario 3D World footage. Is that yours, or did you borrow it from someone?

[raocow]

a friendly skelerton gave me some footage to use

[BuzzNBen]

You know, I think a major problem here is that a2mt seemed to have focused a little more on the quantity of the game, rather than the overall quality.

This game seems to be rather long first of all. I rather see a shorter game, but overall decent levels then a longer game with really poor quality of levels. Second it feels like the levels just weren't polished enough. Level design is huge!

For example: I've made several Mario fangames that were absolutely terrible because they were made in about 3-4 months, not polished, and the level design being unfair, too hard, too easy, too short, or too long . One of them was also deemed too difficult by the 2nd level and so they gave up when there was a whole game they could have played. There was no difficulty curve, and that I have to say, was the downfall of this fangame of mine I've worked on for years, yet nobody ever finished playing it because it was too hard for some players.

I'm not trying to put down the level designers and developers or anything. The difficulty curve is important too and not everyone will be as persistent as raocow when playing them.

[AUS]

god raocow that level was shit

[anonymousbl00dlust]

Amazing level but a bit on the easy side - anonymousbl00dlust

It was more annoying than difficult. On a scale of 1 to 10 I give it a C-.

[AUS]

How many videos until Anon's level?

[AUS]

ohgod the hype

Full disclosure: I'm actually expecting the worst. So logically, I can't be disappointed, only impressed.

it'sgonnabeawfulisn'tit

[anonymousbl00dlust]

wow, already? I guess I should post my playthrough tonight, then .

[S.N.N.]

I remember testing it. Don't think I ever actually finished, though (school reasons iirc).

I'm fully expecting either an hour long video or several smaller ones.

[HuFlungDu]

Assuming this is what I think it is, I tested it multiple times due to making some of the ASM for it. I cheated because jesus is a madman.

[Voltgloss]

What was in the chest in raocow's level?