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A Second Mario Thing: free alex

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by raocow »

Ehh, I see what he's getting into. You can tell when you are playing a game from the smwcentral forum regulars from the era, usually.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by anonymousbl00dlust »

alex2 wrote:yeah, you can tell the levels are somewhat decent unlike hacks from other places

asmt and a2mt
except that isn't true at all either
alex2 wrote:It's all a matter of taste.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by Cup »

Decent sure. I don't think I'd call most of what raocow is talking about good though. There is a very very distinct quality from the SMWC school of level design, and I'm not particularly fond of playing those levels. There's nothing inherent to complain about in them, they're just not as much fun as something like VIP or even JSC's MAGL level. That intangible janky fun is really nice sometimes.

Not shooting down at all, but you can't argue that there isn't something distinct about a lot of SMWC produced levels, and it's just not for me.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by S.N.N. »

I'm not going to get into this debate because it seems like it'll end in nothing good, but:
Cup wrote:There is a very very distinct quality from the SMWC school of level design, and I'm not particularly fond of playing those levels.
With a site as large and as expansive as SMWC, I don't understand how you or anyone else can throw out a catch-all phrase like this, especially when stuff like TSRPR and SMW2+3 and MGU2 (which was apparently one of raocow's best LPs, though I've never played it myself) came out of it. Naturally it's going to attract some really shitty hackers, and naturally they're going to vomit out some mediocre stuff, but I genuinely think it's unfair to throw out a blanket statement like that.

I'm sure if people continue to carry this mindset into SMWCP2, it's going to turn out to be have that "distinct SMWC feel" even when such a feel isn't there.

E: Also, I understand that the VIPs and whatnot have a different style of gameplay, and if it's simply a matter of preference, that's a totally different story .. but the last few posts come off as condescending towards a more "game"-styled approach as opposed to a "wonky"-styled approach.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by Willhart »

I've always thought ASMT games less like Mario games and more like Demo games. They should not be compared too much since they were made differently.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by Jesuiscontent »

Cup wrote:Decent sure. I don't think I'd call most of what raocow is talking about good though. There is a very very distinct quality from the SMWC school of level design, and I'm not particularly fond of playing those levels. There's nothing inherent to complain about in them, they're just not as much fun as something like VIP or even JSC's MAGL level. That intangible janky fun is really nice sometimes.

Not shooting down at all, but you can't argue that there isn't something distinct about a lot of SMWC produced levels, and it's just not for me.
That's pretty much exactly my mindset but there's no need to get worked up about this (@ the last 2 pages), it has always been very widely acknowledged that SMWC and talkhaus had very different styles in level design. Like, it's especially true in level design contests, you can usually tell whether an author is from SMWC or talkhaus. FirePhoenix's entry from magl1 comes to mind. It's really hard to describe, I feel Cup summed it up pretty well though.

Not like it's a bad thing, too, just a different kind of appeal
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by raocow »

the TSRP family don't count, not 'EVERY' hack from smwcentral 'fit'. But it's a feeling you get in a lot of the lesser hacks, those that are less known. A talented level designer will rise above, we are talking about the 'average'.

And like cup or anonymous, I'm not making any kind of qualitative statement here. Talkhaus has a general flavour whom some authors rise above, 2ch has a flavour whom some authors rise above, smwcentral has a general flavour whom some authors rise above. That's normal. It's a 'house style'. Every art movement, every architect movement, every creative movement in the history of forever had one of those, regardless of media or object or whatever. It's normal for people who work closely to one another to build things in a way that influence one another, with some rising above and truly creating their own things, while those in the wings will create something 'closer' to the 'house style'.

And at that point it becomes a question of taste.

I want to reiterate that I mean absolutely, totally no judgements in regards to quality.

[I would define a 'smwcentral' hack as a hack of ether 10, 30 or full exit levels that is fairly polished in terms of aesthetics but whom doesn't stray far from tradition, both in terms of level elements (trap design, enemy placement, etc) and aesthetic choices (i.e: if there are enemy replacements, they will be fairly conservative and kind of err around the same things). I guess if I were to summarise, it would be 'good, polished and safe.'

Again, there are exception, everything has exceptions, but if you pull an average and/or a median this is generally true.]
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by anonymousbl00dlust »

S.N.N wrote:stuff
see: everything raocow just said.
alex2 wrote:It's all a matter of taste.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by S.N.N. »

raocow wrote:[I would define a 'smwcentral' hack as a hack of ether 10, 30 or full exit levels that is fairly polished in terms of aesthetics but whom doesn't stray far from tradition, both in terms of level elements (trap design, enemy placement, etc) and aesthetic choices (i.e: if there are enemy replacements, they will be fairly conservative and kind of err around the same things). I guess if I were to summarise, it would be 'good, polished and safe.'
It actually gets me curious as to how many Talkhaus designers would fall into this category if you didn't LP SMW hacks. Many people nowadays (especially here, though it makes sense) cater levels towards you and they know you love wacky levels that "live on the edge". If they weren't designing levels with you in mind, would they play it safe and try to make something traditional? I'm willing to be the answer is yes.

Honestly, I'm really a fan of any level design style as long as it's fun (I've loved certain Talkhaus levels, I've loved certain VIP levels, I've loved certain SMWC levels). The reason I brought up the points in my previous post were because, as you said in your PM to alex, people are going to inevitably compare SMWCP2 to A2MT when you play it when there's really nothing to compare. Hell, it's already started.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by Saturn Moriya »

Yeah, I like my ALOT's ALOT. I really can't help it. They're just ALOT of fun to use. I don't even notice until someone points it out.

A2MT is like a pan of soup gone bad. There's some moldy stuff in there that will make you sick if you touch them, and if you were to ignore them you'd be fine. but then it spreads through the liquid and it makes for an unpleasant experience...metaphors are difficult and also not even true to the context.

Video games on various forums. They all have their own qualities that appeal to different people. I don't really prefer one over the other. What makes me happiest is when a romhack makes me forget it's a romhack, simply by great polish and proper solid level design. A2MT and ASMT certainly have those levels. SMWCP had those levels. The VIPS have those levels. Collabs are crazy though.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by Clamestarebla »

Petition to prevent Moriya to make any metaphors from now on
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by MrDeePay »

Willhart wrote:They don't need to approve the changes, but they should have the right to complain.
And they're dealt with accordingly. For example an a couple of other people were a couple other people were accused of "bullying" people out of SMWCP2 by a couple of individuals (and not just some random no-named schmoes, either). The reasoning was atrocious, however and some even were quick to resort to character attacks (yeah, those totally help).

I'm looking forward to his reaction when Lightvayne tells this person that a part of their level will need to be completely redone because of patch issues. And by "looking forward", I mean "diving for cover".
Decent sure. I don't think I'd call most of what raocow is talking about good though. There is a very very distinct quality from the SMWC school of level design, and I'm not particularly fond of playing those levels.
There is a very bad vibe coming from this.
There's nothing inherent to complain about in them, they're just not as much fun as something like VIP or even jesusiscontent's MAGL level. That intangible janky fun is really nice sometimes.

Not shooting down at all, but you can't argue that there isn't something distinct about a lot of SMWC produced levels, and it's just not for me.
Basically you like to play very gimmicky levels.
I've always thought ASMT games less like Mario games and more like Demo games. They should not be compared too much since they were made differently.
At the end of the day, the A... ...Thing series still has core fundamentals of at least a Mario platformer that it should follow to have a respectable outcome. ASMT and AXMT had it to an okay extent, and A2XT supposedly will have it.

A2MT does not have it.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by raocow »

It actually gets me curious as to how many Talkhaus designers would fall into this category if you didn't LP SMW hacks. Many people nowadays (especially here, though it makes sense) cater levels towards you and they know you love wacky levels that "live on the edge". If they weren't designing levels with you in mind, would they play it safe and try to make something traditional? I'm willing to be the answer is yes.
Probably!

Well, at least initially. But a lot have since created works on their own in taking elements in strange places.

But yeah, probably, honestly it's human nature to do what you know. But a thing 'did' happen and it did eventually create a different house style. A lot of this, like with a lot of things, has its fingers in pure chance.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by Cup »

Yeah, it's not inherent in everything made for or shared on SMWC. FPI is the best romhacker to ever touch lunar magic in my opinion and creates amazing things. cyphermur is also great. I like all three of those games. It's definitely a 'know it when you see it' kind of situation. Or really more of a 'feel it when you play it.'

I think a good example happened in the first MAGL. Your level SNN was amazing. One of my favorites in the contest, and wasn't even the best work I've seen you do, but the gameplay felt very SMWC. Really more it felt very SMWCP, which is where I think I started to get a feel for the design elements that make it stand out. LEEEEEEEVEEEEEEEEEL felt like it would have been right as home as one of the better levels in SMWCP.

I liked the level so much because of the creativity, some of the awesome resources you created for it, like the music, and overall themes. The gameplay itself felt like it was going through the motions. Like there's a textbook called "this is how you make levels that don't offend people." Which is fine. It did what it needed to do to showoff the awesome theme, but playing the level itself wasn't as fun. Marveling at the atmosphere was. When levels fall short is when they stick to those same design principles but don't have the creativity you showed in the background, which happened frequently in SMWCP.

In comparison the levels that I had the most fun playing were JSC's, which was janky as hell and had some really stupid sections that on paper would make you want to hate it (like that one grinder jump and a lot of enemy spam), and Taganga's simple skull coaster level with instant kill fire pillars. While less impressive levels they were more fun to play, and I'm pretty sure JSC's in particular would not make it through SMWCP2's clearing process.

TomPhanto's level in the MAGL is another example of the "smwcness." And there are more examples.

SMWCness isn't even a good term for it since the only thing it has to do with SMWC is that a few well respected people there are sticklers for certain ideas wrt level design and they carry a lot of influence. It seems like these ideas get hammered in to a lot of new (or old) level designers who hang out on those forums and the result is a whole flurry of levels that are really really good at not offending anyone, not making anyone mad, but also are not particularly fun.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by Willhart »

A2MT is unfinished, but it still has the design, music and the graphics from this community.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by Cup »

Double post because that one was long and I think this sums it up.
Saturn Moriya wrote:What makes me happiest is when a romhack makes me forget it's a romhack, simply by great polish and proper solid level design.
See, this is where I disagree. My favorite levels tend to be the exact opposite of that and are usually extremely self aware. They embrace that they're romhacks and accept all the good or bad connotations that come with them.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by S.N.N. »

Thanks for that detailed reply Cup.

As I said earlier, I'm a fan of all design styles as long as they're fun, so I'm not coming here and defending the "SMWCness" out of personal spite for you or anyone else. I'm more or less just trying to defuse any sort of blanket statements and/or early comparisons to A2MT before raocow plays SMWCP2. I've played through the hack and I know it's going to be a far, far more enjoyable LP than SMWCP was, so I'm just hoping others can appreciate it for what it is and not for its lack of being wacky.

(and don't get me wrong - there's still a bunch of silly stuff/surprises in it, so I think it's going to be a treat all the same.)

E: also, thanks for your comments about my MaGL level, even though it's years old now. I always tend to aim for a more DKC-styled approach when I'm designing levels, but I'm definitely accepting of other styles unlike it as well.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by MrDeePay »

Cup wrote:One of my favorites in the contest, and wasn't even the best work I've seen you do, but the gameplay felt very SMWC. Really more it felt very SMWCP, which is where I think I started to get a feel for the design elements that make it stand out. LEEEEEEEVEEEEEEEEEL felt like it would have been right as home as one of the better levels in SMWCP.
What the heck is "it felt SMWC" supposed to mean? This feels incredibly condescending and will only get worse when SWMCP2 actually gets finished.
When levels fall short is when they stick to those same design principles but don't have the creativity you showed in the background, which happened frequently in SMWCP.
Levels fall short when they fail to live up to their potential. It could be due to undercooked gameplay, being so pedestrian in nature or play it extremely that you can plow through them effortlessly (JOE levels are a major offender), or terrible gameplay.
I'm pretty sure JSC's in particular would not make it through SMWCP2's clearing process.
And you would be wrong.
TomPhanto's level in the MAGL is another example of the "smwcness." And there are more examples.
What the heck is "it felt SMWC" supposed to mean? This feels incredibly condescending and will only get worse when SWMCP2 actually gets finished.
SMWCness isn't even a good term for it since the only thing it has to do with SMWC is that a few well respected people there are sticklers for certain ideas wrt level design and they carry a lot of influence. It seems like these ideas get hammered in to a lot of new (or old) level designers who hang out on those forums and the result is a whole flurry of levels that are really really good at not offending anyone, not making anyone mad, but also are not particularly fun.
This is literally no different from all of the wannabe Brutal Marios, poor attempts at "mature" hacks, "gimmick" hacks, and numerous other things of the sort.

That is a terrible generalization.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2 ?

Post by S.N.N. »

so how about that sick level we had today
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by Bwarch »

Cup wrote: In comparison the levels that I had the most fun playing were JSC's, which was janky as hell and had some really stupid sections that on paper would make you want to hate it (like that one grinder jump and a lot of enemy spam), and Taganga's simple skull coaster level with instant kill fire pillars. While less impressive levels they were more fun to play, and I'm pretty sure JSC's in particular would not make it through SMWCP2's clearing process.
Jesuis' level is probably my favorite level I've EVER played, not even in just MaGL but overall. It was just that neat.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2 ?

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S.N.N. wrote:so how about that sick level we had today
If it was sick it should probably get some rest or go see a doctor so it can get better.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by CM30 »

Cup wrote:Double post because that one was long and I think this sums it up.
Saturn Moriya wrote:What makes me happiest is when a romhack makes me forget it's a romhack, simply by great polish and proper solid level design.
See, this is where I disagree. My favorite levels tend to be the exact opposite of that and are usually extremely self aware. They embrace that they're romhacks and accept all the good or bad connotations that come with them.
I agree. Fan games should be fan games and ROM hacks should be ROM hacks. They should try their hardest NOT to be like 'professional' games, because at heart they're not. I think the best fan games and ROM hacks (and SMB X levels and other stuff) are the ones that are clearly doing things Nintendo wouldn't ever dream of doing and that are proud to be... well, kind of amateurish.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2

Post by Jesuiscontent »

Bwarch wrote:
Cup wrote: In comparison the levels that I had the most fun playing were JSC's, which was janky as hell and had some really stupid sections that on paper would make you want to hate it (like that one grinder jump and a lot of enemy spam), and Taganga's simple skull coaster level with instant kill fire pillars. While less impressive levels they were more fun to play, and I'm pretty sure JSC's in particular would not make it through SMWCP2's clearing process.
Jesuis' level is probably my favorite level I've EVER played, not even in just MaGL but overall. It was just that neat.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2 ?

Post by Doctor Shemp »

alex2 wrote:it's like you guys just talk for the sake of shooting down smwc at every opportunity
I feel like I should address this since I made an ASMBXT level that was essentially about shitting on SMWC, or at least that's the way I've been told they saw it. I actually mostly like the SMWC house style; if it wasn't for their obsession with item babysitting it would be my favourite house style. I certainly prefer it to the SMBX Community house style and, I suppose, the talkhaus house style. There's a quote from one of my favourite movies that applies to the talkhaus house style. It's "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should." I suppose that this is the reason why I liked Superb Demo Sisters so much: by hugely restricting the gimmicks people could use, preventing item babysitting and other nonsense, and keeping levels short, it essentially encouraged the SMWC house style with all the tumours excised, while still retaining some freedom of creativity for the Challenge World. It really brought to the fore how talented some of the talkhaus is at level design, since those people here that do create solid platforming efforts tend to get forgotten a day or two later when the next level using wacky gimmicks and comedy as a crutch appears, or force in gimmicks themselves because that's what it takes to be noticed. I can think of quite a few solid platforming efforts in A2XT, including one of the few levels that I was prepared to put over half an hour into to beat legit instead of godmoding since I was enjoying it so much, that will get maybe one sentence in one or two posts and then be forgotten since they're surrounded by wackier levels with inferior design that will get all the attention.

I rib SMWC mainly because they take themselves so seriously. I think it says a lot that I was able to make a level mocking them that was still mostly fun. I don't think I could do that for SMBXC or talkhaus. I thought about this recently and the only levels I could think of were a 30-section trek through custom graphics with no enemies for SMBXC or a horde of unpredictable events and LunaDLL for talkhaus. Neither would be fun to play, even if they would get the point across.
Cup wrote:the only thing it has to do with SMWC is that a few well respected people there are sticklers for certain ideas wrt level design and they carry a lot of influence
How's that any different from the talkhaus making levels mostly just for raocow? In fact, how's that different from any group of designers anywhere ever? Everyone has their idols that they emulate, and of course people will clique together and copy the senior people. That's what people do.
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It depends on the project. I've had experience in beta testing A2XT and SDS, and they were both handled differently.

For SDS, nearly everyone who contributed stuck around for the testing process and made changes as requested. Besides, the project benefited both from not being advertised by raocow at all ever, and from being strict in its requirements. It therefore attracted competent designers who knew what was expected from them. In my entire run of an early version of the game I only encountered one bad level and, in fairness, the creator was trying to emulate what was probably the worst level of SMB. So, in that case, asking people to change their own levels actually worked, and WestonSmith was there to be autocratic when necessary.

For A2XT, very few people who contributed stuck around for the testing process. That was probably due to several factors: firstly, raocow's advertising of the game attracting people who dumped their levels then left the talkhaus; secondly, the initial perception that there were no standards, which wasn't helped by the lax enforcing of the actual standards and allowing some levels to bypass the standards; thirdly, the fact that there was a considerably long delay between alpha and beta while we waited on the overworld and cutscenes; fourthly, that some level designers are either flat-out incompetent and would help future projects the most by not contributing at all, or alternatively that they felt they had to add gimmicks to their levels to stand out and were prepared to sacrifice quality to achieve this. I gave a lot of shit to MonkeyShrapnel earlier for making several bad levels for A2XT but he made a fairly good level for SDS. So there's my evidence for the talkhaus house style and its detrimental effects on some people, and my formal apology to MonkeyShrapnel. MonkeyShrapnel, you can create good levels when you don't follow the house style. I encourage you to do more in the rough style of SDS.

So, in this case, fuck democracy, autocracy all the way. If you're going to attract people who don't know what they're doing who'll dump levels and then bugger off, then you need competent people - ideally people that everyone already dislikes - to spot the mistakes and get yelled at by angry people who are delusional about their own ability, and then even more competent people with ridiculous amounts of patience (like Wilhart) who can turn these criticisms into functional edits that improve the levels in question. A2XT is leagues better than ASMBXT because of the few people that weren't afraid to be totally autocratic.
S.N.N. wrote:so how about that sick level we had today
That's actually a very apt metaphor since it seemed like a fun and creative level that actually used technology to advance the gameplay, rather than technology for its own sake, that nevertheless had a painful tumorous growth on it in the form of the final section.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: not as good as smwcp2 ?

Post by raocow »

Doctor Shemp wrote: I rib SMWC mainly because they take themselves so seriously. I think it says a lot that I was able to make a level mocking them that was still mostly fun. I don't think I could do that for SMBXC or talkhaus. I thought about this recently and the only levels I could think of were a 30-section trek through custom graphics with no enemies for SMBXC or a horde of unpredictable events and LunaDLL for talkhaus. Neither would be fun to play, even if they would get the point across.
Man I dunno that latter one sounds like it could be pretty fun!
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