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A Second Mario Thing: free alex

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Septentrion Pleiades
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 5 years ago

The Doctor wrote:Well, I'll just say that hopefully the Talkhaus community realizes from this LP just how important quality control is and that the failure of A2MT will prevent similar fates from happening to future collabs like AZCT and, god willing, A3MBXT.
I'm sure we've already learned a couple things in the last 4 years.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby alex2 » 5 years ago

I doubt it
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby Bwarch » 5 years ago

Septentrion Pleiades wrote:
The Doctor wrote:Well, I'll just say that hopefully the Talkhaus community realizes from this LP just how important quality control is and that the failure of A2MT will prevent similar fates from happening to future collabs like AZCT and, god willing, A3MBXT.
I'm sure we've already learned a couple things in the last 4 years.
Yeah like, it's been said already but a lot of the things wrong with A2MT heavily deal with time. You had level authors who were still learning, first and foremost. Fireyblaze and raocow for example, just as recent examples, have made far better levels since what they submitted to this.

Similarly of course is that after seeing how this hack ended up management and QA will probably be concentrated on if A3MT comes to be a thing. (Heh heh)

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby limepie20 » 5 years ago

Pheonix wrote:Can someone explain to me why, despite the overworld being designed after the majority of the levels were 'done', there's still all these ridiculous difficulty spikes? I mean sure, the level today skips a bunch of skyworld, but that doesn't mean it has to be a spike-filled piece of garbage.
Actually the reason is as opposed to asmt where the overworld was made beforehand, we let people make any level they wanted in a2mt and made the overworld after it, so there wasn't balancing of themes and stuff.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby Fireyblaze » 5 years ago

Bwarch wrote:Fireyblaze and raocow for example, just as recent examples, have made far better levels since what they submitted to this.
I'm just going to come out and say this. This level is made this way on purpose. It isn't because I'm bad although, you can say that I'm a bad designer because of this and that would be your opinion. I made this level because I wanted a level that looked like it was happy and sunshine but secretly hated you can wants you to die at every turn.

I'm not offended by the term "youtube level" either. I think that it takes some interesting thought processes to create the traps and tricks that liter the level. I made the level give you a feeling of "Now what do I do?" Most levels I see put the solution right in your face and it really doesn't take much effort to figure it out.

I'm not blaming them, but I think that my level might have been better placed a little further in the hack. I know that my level is hard. I know it is stupid. It is supposed to be that way.
anonymousbl00dlust wrote: Fun fact: I got to see the first level he ever created back when the kaizo colab was still a thing. 3 sublevels of swimming through 64-pixel-wide muncher tunnels. And an eerie generator.

I was so pleased.

EDIT: I actually may have it laying around somewhere, if people wanna see it. Granted, raocow has to be okay with me distributing it.
I think you might want to ask me for permission? You can go ahead if you really wish. I don't remember it very well myself.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby Bwarch » 5 years ago

Duuuuuude.
Talkhaus Difficulty(TM) is alive and thriving well enough without you making a level stupidly hard on purpose.

So let me guess you actually wouldn't change a thing about it if you had the chance to?

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby AUS » 5 years ago

Fireyblaze wrote:I think you might want to ask me for permission? You can go ahead if you really wish. I don't remember it very well myself.
Were you involved in that too? He was talking about raocow I'm p'sure.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby anonymousbl00dlust » 5 years ago

Fieryblaze wrote:words
The thing is that you can "hide the solution" in a good way, or you can hide it in a bad way. Some of the ideas in the level were really neat, like the re-use of the springboard. But the invisible tofu blocks and the silly treasure chest at the end weren't clever- they just added in difficulty for the sake of difficulty. Had those bits been removed, none of the design complexity would have been lost.

I don't think you are a bad designer, or that the level was bad. I just think that some of the obstacles were hard without introducing anything new. And if you are going to put difficulty in your level, it better be there for a reason.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby alex2 » 5 years ago

I think he's a bad designer
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby Fireyblaze » 5 years ago

AUS wrote:
Fireyblaze wrote:I think you might want to ask me for permission? You can go ahead if you really wish. I don't remember it very well myself.
Were you involved in that too? He was talking about raocow I'm p'sure.
Well, I was involved with one. I'm just stupid. My mistake. I'm just so egotistical that I think everything is about me.

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alex2
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby alex2 » 5 years ago

I picture you constantly having the same face as osmosis jones in your avatar
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby Fireyblaze » 5 years ago

Bwarch wrote:Duuuuuude.
Talkhaus Difficulty(TM) is alive and thriving well enough without you making a level stupidly hard on purpose.

So let me guess you actually wouldn't change a thing about it if you had the chance to?
anonymousbl00dlust wrote:
Fieryblaze wrote:words
The thing is that you can "hide the solution" in a good way, or you can hide it in a bad way. Some of the ideas in the level were really neat, like the re-use of the springboard. But the invisible tofu blocks and the silly treasure chest at the end weren't clever- they just added in difficulty for the sake of difficulty. Had those bits been removed, none of the design complexity would have been lost.

I don't think you are a bad designer, or that the level was bad. I just think that some of the obstacles were hard without introducing anything new. And if you are going to put difficulty in your level, it better be there for a reason.
Yeah, I could have probably removed some of the invisible tofu blocks, but I wouldn't remove them when it comes to the Parrot coin. I mean, if you see a parrot coin, and you actively look for a way to get it, you will find the tofu blocks. Plus, if you look at the other side of the structure, there are tofu block. Since the structure is symmetrical otherwise, you can guess there are invisible blocks there.

I probably did drop the ball on the chest though. I mean, they said "make the chest hard to get." Like someone pointed out though, it did have a open spot that could indicate something being there. Maybe if I replaced the blank graphic with a coin, it would have been more obvious.

I could have taken out some of the baseball chucks and lava lotuses because seeing it now, it looks harder than it should have been. Those are some places that the difficulty didn't need to be introduced. Other than that, I probably wouldn't have changed anything. I tested it thoroughly without tools and every jump, trap, and trick was possible to do without taking a hit.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby The Doctor » 5 years ago

Fireyblaze wrote:I tested it thoroughly without tools and every jump, trap, and trick was possible to do without taking a hit.
Right. Because you designed the level. You knew what to do. You said you designed this level so that the player would have to figure out what to do, but you never experienced that during your testing.

The problem with your level isn't that it was difficult. Difficult is awesome. It's that you designed a level that required experimentation, but severely punished the players when they experimented. It was tedious and unfair; not overly difficult.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby MrDeePay » 5 years ago

It's very much possible to make an "innocent looking level" be difficult without it being a crappy level. You did not do that.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby anonymousbl00dlust » 5 years ago

Fireyblaze wrote:even more words
I think that's probably the perfect attitude to have. I know some people here didn't like the level at all, but don't take that as a unanimous response.

Even if there are flaws in the level, they are the small, easy-to-fix kind. It would be much worse if the level was boring and unremarkable. Its usually pretty easy to spot the difference between a flawed level made by an talented/experienced LD and a flawed level made by an inexperienced LD. You definitely fall into the former category.

TL;DR the core ideas were all interesting, so kudos for that.

EDIT: Its funny that you named the level Wrathful Romp. Romp levels are usually very dull, which is one of the few complaints I doubt your level has gotten.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby AUS » 5 years ago

not that anon here isn't disputed in his 'good judge of level design' title there..
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby alex2 » 5 years ago

AUS wrote:not that anon here isn't disputed in his 'good judge of level design' title there..
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby Awakenyourmind » 5 years ago

Good luck raocow, youll be hitting one of my levels soon. Which I intended for a far later world but will appear much earlier then it was supposed to.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby anonymousbl00dlust » 5 years ago

AUS wrote:not that anon here isn't disputed in his 'good judge of level design' title there..
outside of the posts consisting solely of personal attacks, point out to me which comments aren't judging peoples level design.

also: yeah, I'm pretty good.
Last edited by anonymousbl00dlust on 14 Jun 2014, 00:25, edited 2 times in total.
alex2 wrote:It's all a matter of taste.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby Awakenyourmind » 5 years ago

Fun fact: Into The Sky Castle was intended for world 7-8. Yet it will be showing up in world two. :shock:

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby Pheonix » 5 years ago

'Later world' and 'earlier world' stop meaning much when the weird radial difficulty this thing has is taken into account.
limepie20 wrote:Actually the reason is as opposed to asmt where the overworld was made beforehand, we let people make any level they wanted in a2mt and made the overworld after it, so there wasn't balancing of themes and stuff.
I'm not sure I understand this answer? Like, wasn't there that star difficulty rating thing going on, from which you could have just lined up the star ratings for each general theme and organized the worlds from there, and just have some off-color levels here and there to even out the level counts of each world?
Sure, the star ratings could have been questionable, but as it ended up the difficulties ended up being all over the place, and I'm not sure how that happened.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby AUS » 5 years ago

anonymousbl00dlust wrote:
AUS wrote:not that anon here isn't disputed in his 'good judge of level design' title there..
outside of the posts consisting solely of personal attacks, point out to me which comments aren't judging peoples level design.

also: yeah, I'm pretty good.
No no no, I just mean that hardly anybody (does anyone?) here actually agrees with what you find good level design. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm merely stating something that I noticed. You may be a self-declared 'good level designer,' but, well, for one I have no idea if you are or not, and two other people here seem to disagree!
I guess I'll just wait until I see your final level. :p
edit: basically less me attacking you and more me slandering you, right? though on second thought I don't think you're accusing me of attacking you (I totes am btw)
Last edited by AUS on 14 Jun 2014, 00:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby limepie20 » 5 years ago

Pheonix wrote:'Later world' and 'earlier world' stop meaning much when the weird radial difficulty this thing has is taken into account.
limepie20 wrote:Actually the reason is as opposed to asmt where the overworld was made beforehand, we let people make any level they wanted in a2mt and made the overworld after it, so there wasn't balancing of themes and stuff.
I'm not sure I understand this answer? Like, wasn't there that star difficulty rating thing going on, from which you could have just lined up the star ratings for each general theme and organized the worlds from there, and just have some off-color levels here and there to even out the level counts of each world?
Sure, the star ratings could have been questionable, but as it ended up the difficulties ended up being all over the place, and I'm not sure how that happened.
Yeah we had that rating system, but it's hard to have worlds correspond to both difficulty and theme, and it looks like priority was given to theme. Also one person themselves just made the overworld layout (I forget who) and it was late in the process where there weren't many people motivated to optimize it. This is basically first draft.

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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby yogui » 5 years ago

Franky wrote:Fun fact: Into The Sky Castle was intended for world 7-8. Yet it will be showing up in world two. :shock:
Well it's not technically world two, since the game is meant to split in four to reach the switch palaces, and these four paths are each composed of two parts, one easy and one hard. Easy means difficulty range from world 1 to 4, hard means difficulty range from world 5 to 8. So to the start until the sky level of yesterday it was in the easy part, now the rest of the sky world is the hard part.
So if you want to do levels in order of difficulty you should go back and do the easy part of the other paths (the beach and the forest zone, and the mountain zone too I think but the overworld isn't made), but raocow will probably continue on this path until he reach the switch palace, to finish all the levels of this path before going to another one.
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Re: A Second Mario Thing: chock full of ok levels

Postby raocow » 5 years ago

yeah uhm I'm starting to see how hugely grossely flawed my idea in terms of level progression is, haha
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