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smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
eataninja
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby eataninja » 9 years ago

Tails_155 wrote:Concisely, I like easy hacks, because I'm terrible at Mario ._.
Essenially this. I need save states to get past anything above the difficulty of the original SMW, and let's be honest, that game was freaking easy. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy harder hacks, but I can't enjoy them like I would...say, a real game, if you catch my drift.

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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby Faroush » 9 years ago

I'll admit I'm pretty terrible at Super Mario World, but I love games like Mega Man. What I've seen the differences between what I hate about hard Mario hacks and what I love about Mega Man games are:

1.) a margin of error. From what I've seen in Mega Man, even the hardest of puzzles have either a slight chance of success even with a small screw-up, or some other way to pass the challenge (e.g. Quick Man's laser gauntlet).

2.) time to assess the situation. I can't say I'm a fan of blind jumps or walking blindly into a challenge with only a split second to react. Make the challenge as hard as you want, just give the player a small chance to see what exactly is expected of them (e.g. Mega Man 9's Skull Castle 1).

Those are my only real "beefs" with hard romhacks, aside from Kaizo traps and the like.

With easier romhacks, I tend to prefer those with aesthetic appeal. I was completely in awe with this contest's fourth-place entry because of its atmosphere.

I wish I could think of more to say on the subject, but my mind's not really cooperating with me, hahaha.

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Kleiner Kokiri
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby Kleiner Kokiri » 9 years ago

fireyblaze wrote:That's great. And people are entitled to their opinions, whether they're negative or positive. And if you're a hacker worth your salt, you aren't going to get offended by negative opinions, and will hopefully take the more constructive criticisms to heart.

The thing is that multiple people have complained about the same thing raocow has pointed out in the level. This makes me frustrated because it doesn't contribute anything! This is just people complaining for the sake of complaining! Its like if I went on a rant about the sun because it is too hot in the summer. Everyone knows it is hot! My rant is just pointless!

But how would you know how many people disliked something ?

If 70% of all people dislike a certain thing in a hack, and just a single person points it out ... you'll never know how much people liked it or disliked it.
So you need a certain quantity of people to get a picture what most of your audience thinks.

But, who cares.
Opinions on stuff like this will always make people rant.
If you're satisfied with the hack then you'll rant about people complaining. If you think some things need improvement or it's a bad hack ... then you'll rant about how bad it is and some still like it.
Not everyone is like that though ... but a lot of us folks.
I did that in the last chocolate contest, when raocow used to love this high-ranked card thing.
On the other Hand ~ Mushroom Meltdown was a very good hack. And it bugged me that other people wrote it down.

I guess it would be much easier if this wasn't a ranking. A ranking (especially decided by 3 judges instead of community votes or something) is much more provoking.
Or at least that's my opinion.



///////////////////////////

I don't need a hard hack (which i don't mind either) because i prefer good visuals, especially if they are unlike the original game, fitting music and the whole atmosphere of a hack. That was the case with the 22nd place.
Some people here don't care about "story" because they think the Mario Universe is too silly and the games don't have a "good storyline" either.
However ... this is somewhat the point of fanfiction.
It wants to show the fans something that would never be in the actual series. And it shouldn't be taken seriously, but rather with humour. raocow laughed his ass off ~ so it kind of hit the spot

I wouldn't like the Mario games so much if it wasn't for fanfiction ~ be it on deviantart / hacks or even in ... ehr ... porn xD

To heck with it !
I'd even play A2MT if it's just stock footage of Demo talking with her "master".
... because Demo is awesome.

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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby K3fka » 9 years ago

Okay, I'm not really a big fan of super-hard hacks. I prefer a sort of medium difficulty. Now, I don't want to just walk through the game without taking any damage on my first try or anything. What I really like is difficulty more along the lines of that of New Super Mario Bros. Wii. I know you don't have a Wii so you haven't played it, but if you look up some videos you should be able to see that it has a nice difficulty curve, starting off easy for beginners (and yes, it gives you tons of lives in the beginning) and then slowly becoming harder and harder until the final world has you dying many times in one spot (so you make good use of all those previously-acquired lives). Hope that helps. :3

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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby raocow » 9 years ago

Very last words of the vanilla 2010 project, uttered by yours truly:
"sigh of relief"
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DanieluYoshikoto
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby DanieluYoshikoto » 9 years ago

Well I usually play games just for fun and beating them.
And also learning all the different types of gameplay out there (e.g. Mario, Kirby and Sonic... in all you can jump and move but they all have thier own special parts such as powerups that give you more hits, being able to steal abilities from enemies, or extreamly fast gameplay) and I also have no problems adjusting to new gametypes.

So yeah... I usually don´t like extreamly hard games... chellanging, YES, but not IWBTG hard.
For Example the Touhou games. They might be hard... but at chellanging, as you have to remember OR think fast, depening on what is comming up ahead. I also am into Puzzle games (Tetris, Puzzle League - also known as Tetris Attack - and so on), whice are usually preaty easy for me.
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby S.N.N. » 9 years ago

I've never understood why people enjoy Kaizo so much. I mean, I guess there are masochists out there who enjoy spamming save states and trying to do a million precise moves trying to get through tight spaces and whatnot, but I just can't see the appeal in that.

Personally, I like any hack that is creative enough to draw me in and keep me there, hard or easy. I like it when a hack is able to be unique enough to stand out from the crowd without being a stock "here's 90 levels of the exact same thing with a different palette". Everything can contribute to making a level unique - custom graphics, interesting ASM, cool puzzles, music (which wasn't even possible before 2007, yet some of those hacks still rocked). If the hack is too hard, I'm at the point in life where I likely wouldn't give enough of a shit to continue playing through it, but if it's too easy, it'll get boring rather quickly. I'd say difficulty-wise, I'm right in the middle of the spectrum.

Contest-related, looks like we're done after tomorrow. #1 will definitely be interesting.

Thane
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby Thane » 9 years ago

I really only like difficult hacks that have crazy gimmicks and such, like the kouhais, vips, SDM, yeah and ASMT, otherwise I'm not into that kind of difficulty.

But if I go to SMWcentral for a hack to play I like to get one that is average difficulty (like original SMW) like a chill kind of hack.

Even so, those gimmicky hacks are my favorite to play.

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ZMann
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby ZMann » 9 years ago

I'm one of those people who like playing harder levels. I don't know why, but, even though I can get really mad at some really hard levels, I just don't like playing easier levels. (I even have trouble designing easy, "in the beginning"-type levels.)

Hacks like the Luigi's Adventure series, Mario X World series, ASMT, Scarlet Devil Mario, and the VIPs had that same high level of difficulty that I like (though, to be honest, SDM was Kaizo-ish in the end). And the only real regret I have about liking harder hacks is the fact that I don't have one of those USB controllers.

I suppose I would include SMW Yeah in that list, but it was sort of easy for me until the final worlds.

Also, these most recent levels have been really great. I can't wait to see how #1 goes. :D

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Kristian
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby Kristian » 9 years ago

I just like when a hack progresses from easy to tough. At the start of a hack, I like to be able to blaze through levels, maybe with a trick or gimmick or something to keep me entertained. By the end of the game (last 15% or world 7-8 in a full hack) I should be dieing a few times before I get through each stage unless I'm playing really well, and that way by the end of the game, I'll feel like I've earned the victory.

EDIT: Also the level today was cool. Again, really great design.
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I Kill Muffins
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby I Kill Muffins » 9 years ago

There are people who enjoy easy to medium...ish...difficulty, either because they are bad at the game and will eventually get better at it and play harder difficulties, or because they are short-tempered and are destined to only play easy games, or at least until they become calmer people.

Then there are people who enjoy harder difficulties, (usually most don't enjoy "kaizo" difficulty) because they love the sense of accomplishment achieved after a long struggle. The longer and harder the struggle, the more accomplishment they feel. They are usually good at the game they play and are relatively calm people.

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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby Tails_155 » 9 years ago

eataninja wrote:
Tails_155 wrote:Concisely, I like easy hacks, because I'm terrible at Mario ._.
Essenially this. I need save states to get past anything above the difficulty of the original SMW, and let's be honest, that game was freaking easy. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy harder hacks, but I can't enjoy them like I would...say, a real game, if you catch my drift.
Then you don't understand the severity :P I couldn't beat world 5.
Last edited by Tails_155 on 06 Aug 2010, 02:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Chef
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby Chef » 9 years ago

I think all people want to have some relative fear of losing. The difference between perhaps you, kaizo players, and the average joe, is how much effort they're willing to put in the game. If you always try your very best and have a lot of experience, then of course you want really hard levels. If you however are just relaxing and not paying very close attention, an 'easy' level will still provide a challenge and the possibility of losing.

So the fun of an easy level is something that is distracting, but doesn't ask you to use your head too much. I find that I am the same way with art. Sometimes I want to watch/experience something that is very fast paced, complicated, and has a lot to say (and therefore demands the audience pay attention and challenge themselves). Other times I don't feel like I have the energy to give a work of art like that the attention it deserves so I watch something simpler instead, which may have familiar cliches I don't have to dissect.

Maybe some people just don't feel like they have the energy to try something over and over again/solve a challenge, and therefore like games that don't demand it.

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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby GauRocks » 9 years ago

Before I start, here are my "easy game" credentials: I thought Awesome was too hard in the original SMW. Yeah, not Tubular like everyone else always says. Awesome. The one with the slippery fish bridge.

That said, why do I play Mario games? Probably because they're on the easy side. With very few exceptions, I don't like games that expect you to practice mechanics for hours. I want to sit down, play a few levels at a time, and leave happy. Maybe along the way, I'll see some nice visuals or run across a particularly excellent bit of music. When I get stuck somewhere, I want to be able to find a clever trick to bypass it, not have to slog through. Ever since the original warp pipe in 1-2, Super Maro Bros. has been about the clever tricks. Two warp whistles or flying over the level with a P-wing in Mario 3. Using a cape or taking a secret exit in Mario World. Using the wing cap or a well-placed cannon shot in Mario 64. And so on. There are very few challenging levels that you're forced to play through to continue, but there are always a bunch there as a test if you feel like it. You can make the game as short or as long as you like, and the only pressure to do it the long way is "bragging rights."

A lot of hacks (and a decent number of retail games) forget this, and I inevitably end up frustrated with some mandatory level and quit.

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Fireyblaze
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby Fireyblaze » 9 years ago

I prefer hard levels as they always keep me on my toes I even like Kaizo hacks sometimes, but recently, kaizo hacks haven't been focused on traps and hard jump. Most kaizo hacks have people constantly spamming shell jumps, key jumps, and wall jumps. I don't like those kinds of kaizo because they are impossible without tools.

Easy games normally bore me quick. If there is no challenge, I don't see the point in doing it.

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Petronio39
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby Petronio39 » 9 years ago

Not a frequent poster but I am an avid watcher, and since I think I have valid input here I just want to give it.

That said, mario has never been my strong point. If I play a hack or try to make one in lunar magic it tends to be on the easier side. It's just my skill level, my reasons for playing are the same as anyone's, I like the fun and challenge presented by a mario game, the difference is that what qualifies as a challenge for me is significantly easier than what a seasoned professional like raocow might find challenging. Some levels may look too easy or even boring, to people who are already good, but they still present a challenge to others.

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LucarioPK
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby LucarioPK » 9 years ago

Wow, I really liked today's level, but what I loved more is the 4 minutes of you talking. That was awesome.

Since you are done this saga today...what will you be playing TOMORROW?!
Hi!

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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby TaviTurnip » 9 years ago

Amusingly to me, my tastes for this sort of thing are awfully similar to raocow's. I like when it's difficult, and even somewhat stupidly difficult, and although I'm willing to Kaizo it up, there is such a thing as a limit before it stops being fun.

Mostly, I like "fun" things. By that I mean, random silliness, but controlled silliness. Cute graphics, nice colours, an enemy dying in a fun way or surprising the player... Stuff like that :O But ultimately, I enjoy a challenge too. Especially if I've got friends around to watch and cheer/laugh/all that.
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Kilgamayan
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby Kilgamayan » 9 years ago

Easy hacks are lame. Super Marisa World should be the rule, not the exception.

Hell yeah.

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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby cozyduck » 9 years ago

Well, here goes my opinion, even though I don't think a lot of people will share it.

It's like this, for normal games I may be satisfied with simply experiencing the games content, but with a few exceptions it's usually a shallow satisfaction.

Whenever I find a game where I really enjoy the games engine, i.e. the way your character controls, the type of enemies and obstacles the game allows for, etc., then the real fun for myself comes from the path to mastery of this engine. Therefore, I enjoy it when the level design is helpful in this regard. For example, TSRPR and then TSRP2 are good hacks to start with. Later, for more experienced players, RttC and maybe Luigi's adventure are the best things SMW romhacking has to offer. Sure, those hacks are hard, but they are for the most part extremely well designed, and full of challenges which are not only varied, but also provide for a great learning experience.

Of course, if your goal is the same as mine, emulator tools are prohibited, although one could make a case for using them for training purposes (and later redoing levels without them of course).

And this brings me to a point in which I disagree with a lot of people here: The importance of repetition. Many dislike starting sections over when they die, but in order to improve this is essential. It's the same as if you manage to play a section of a song properly; you won't consider yourself proficient already. In Mario terms, if you mess up a jump 10 times, then make it once, you can't "do" it yet. Dying later will force you to redo the jump, and eventually you'll be able to always do it. Only then that jump will be part of your repertoire, i.e. you'll have learnt it.

And that's that.

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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby megamario » 9 years ago

I don't like "hard" levels, because often it's just not fun. It's one thing to be challenged, but I feel 0 enjoyment over completing something hard. Like, uh Galaxy 2.
Super fun game, I liked the power ups and most of the level design and even the water levels were fun. But some of the harder missions were just frustrating and when I complete them I just think "Thank god I never have to do that again"
In Mario terms, if you mess up a jump 10 times, then make it once, you can't "do" it yet. Dying later will force you to redo the jump, and eventually you'll be able to always do it. Only then that jump will be part of your repertoire, i.e. you'll have learnt it.
I don't believe this, honestly. Sometimes things are just luck.

Like in SMB3. Virtually every level in the last world I died multiple times per level (I did a replay recently) because of one jump or enemy or another that required enough momentum to make it, or need to angle it just right, or whatever. Any time I beat a level it wasn't from "learning" the jump, it was from getting lucky enough to make it to the other side; often I'd do the same thing every time even.

The apathy that builds the more you have to redo the portion (or in SMB3's case THE ENTIRE LEVEL) certainly doesn't help since after a point you get so apathetic you get even sloppier. Derp died again. Now I get to do it all again woopie.


Ugh this post sounded better in my head; trying to convey exactly what I'm thinking in the words I want is such a pain.
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby frickinawesum » 9 years ago

Crimson wrote: I like seeing what people do with Mario World hence why I watch people on the Internet playing them.
Essentially this. Before joining the forum I would only see some YT video of someone playing SMW, but after, I could see the actual work put into designing a single level or a hack. I'm amazed by the wide range of possibilities, variety and creativity, users, players, and hackers have made of one "simple" SMW video game. It's like a whole different world and I must say I've learned a lot from watching the LP's, not only raocow's, but from other users as well, and specially from the content of this forum.

It's been ages since I last played SMW and I'm not what you would say a pro player, but now that I know better, if I ever get to play SM again, I will definitely see more than just platforms and jumps.
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby alex2 » 9 years ago

I play Mario due to its simplicity. RPGs are not simple, hence why I don't play them (excluding the Mother series).

Like raocow, I also like challenges. However, my definition of a challenge extends to the point of playing Item Abuse. However, I do not generally play Kaizo hacks. I made a TAS of one for a friend, but that's about it. My definition of a challenge is one that highlights all aspects of difficulty. I have no issue with frame-specific jumps, as I've grown accustomed to doing that daily.

Super Puzzle World 3, for example, was a bit of a challenge for me. I ended up winning the trophy for first 100% in that game (which, believe me, was not easy).

I enjoy Mario because I grew up with it. Once I figured out that you can hack the game into something new, I practically jizzed myself.
Warning: Opinions expressed by alex2 or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of alex2 himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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MickX
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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby MickX » 9 years ago

Frankly it's a mixed bag for me. I first started with Super Mario Bros. and never said no to Mario afterward. Eventually in like 2005 or something I only got to play SMW once, borrowed through a friend in it's GBA form. Playing through the whole thing took me a fair lot of time, but I did it and it was enjoyable. Initially it was easy and allowed me to learn the mechanics real quick, then the game kept throwing new challenges at me who always kept me alert and made each level always something new to look for. When I reached the latter end of the game I only had to put everything I learned into action. It's the standard easy-to-hard curve we all love.

Recently, I tried The Second Reality Project Reloaded while awaiting Internet to be installed and I realized I couldn't even put the Save States away from the very beginning. I don't know if I got rusty because of how long I first played SMW or if it was the controller option I was restricted to (keyboard...), but I feel really bad at it now.This coming from someone who thinks Super Mario Galaxy 2 is fair in difficulty despite the roughly 450 deaths on my first file (1/4th in Perfect Run easily), which is odd.

To be honest I'd die less if I wanted to, because I actually find deaths in Mario games very funny: sometimes I see myself doing an accident on purpose just to see Mario fall over in a stupid, easily preventable way and laugh about it! However too much silly play doesn't make me better though.

I like when a game offers me both things, room to get better but also relaxed and cheerful enough to encourage you more after doing mistakes (again, Mario's rather comical tune helps you feel good as opposed to an heavier tune making you feel sad). No matter how easy the mechanics of the game are to learn I want to pick it up, learn quickly and play efficiently shortly after, then I want the game to throw in some quirks and traps that force me to adapt every time to solve the problem, making me use the stocked lives for something, and thus learn even more! Always on a roll!


The only thing I have to learn in the world of hacks (in SMW's case I only played TSRPR) is to let go Save States, because once you start you lose all respect for in-game checkpoints and then lose the necessity to repeat game obstacles to master them entirely (good point, Cozyduck!), then you instinctively continue on just like a drug. It makes experience shallow in a sense that with artificial checkpoints and breezing through the game like a Sonic fan leaves little impression on your mind, which means it's a plain waste of time as you interacted and learned nothing. Hell, I say this because the only thing I remember playing in TSRPR right now is the very last level, an huge one with a lot of ground to cover before and after the checkpoint. Everything else vanished or just never reached my brain, shows how bad the lack of repetition is... >_>

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Re: smwcentral madness: Vanilla 2010

Postby Sillyman » 9 years ago

Well, I personally prefer easier games reflex-wise... which is why I don't really play romhacks. Of course, that may be because I enjoy more than anything else about a game is discovery, either thinking up rules and modifying them to become more and more complex and interesting, or looking at a rule or puzzle someone else has made and going "well huh". You know, that whole "spade" thing mentioned in things like the Bartle Test of Gamer Psychology.

On that note, watching a more puzzle-ish or kaizo-ish romhack is very interesting to me, because I don't have to worry about the action game fluff that is almost always in there regardless.
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