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The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

they were fun, but now they're done
kirbyy
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby kirbyy » 7 years ago

well to clear some things up, this was my first level. i tried to make the level design as good as i could, so the weird level design choices or uneven difficulty weren't on purpose. the music changes were intentional since i made the midi myself. glad many people appreciate it though i understand that limepie thinks it lacked in some areas because it probably did.

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Fapnoob
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby Fapnoob » 7 years ago

I like the song and your sense of humour with the sprites and end goal. Good work for first level.

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alex2
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby alex2 » 7 years ago

morsel/morceau wrote:I hate the judges cause they gave alex the results.
I didn't ask raocow for the results; I asked him for his upload order plan so I could upload my TASes accordingly. I hadn't anticipated the method he's using, since I figured he wanted to keep the actual rankings a secret by doing them randomly. It's not like I have told/am going to tell any of the upcoming results or use them for SUPER MEGA PROFITS via betting or some shit.

Bah.
Warning: Opinions expressed by alex2 or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of alex2 himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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MrDeePay
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby MrDeePay » 7 years ago

limepie20 wrote: I didn't really like this level. I don't know why some people love it.
"LOL oh so random" is probably the reason. The level had the same problem as many of the Vanilla 2012 entries had- (semi-)randomly thrown together design with poor spritework on top of that. The humor (or "humor") here was just used as a crutch.

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AxemJinx
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby AxemJinx » 7 years ago

Yeah, even if I can appreciate what the author is trying to do, if the level isn't fun to play, it isn't fun to play. It seemed pretty boring to me overall and I probably would have ranked it just as low. "Designer intention" is fine and all, but I'm pretty sure "good level" means more than "funny/random" as far as this contest is concerned. *shrug*

Frankly, I think the judges are being holistic by looking beyond the humor aspect and taking into account everything else.


Edit:
ZaCloud wrote:That's usually why judges are considered special and not just some random person off the street, because they're usually expected to be able to think from a wider perspective than just their own opinion.
Isn't that kind of like saying Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door should be given a lower review score because it's a kiddy game and not everyone will like it, or that all AAA games deserve the highest review scores because they tend to have the highest sales/are the most popular? I'd rather read judges' subjective opinions than see them pander to tastes that are not their own, but I guess that's just me. I think judges are considered special because they have experience/knowledge in the field for which they're judging, and so can give an informed opinion.

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ZaCloud
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby ZaCloud » 7 years ago

Isn't that kind of like saying Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door should be given a lower review score because it's a kiddy game and not everyone will like it, or that all AAA games deserve the highest review scores because they tend to have the highest sales/are the most popular? I'd rather read judges' subjective opinions than see them pander to tastes that are not their own, but I guess that's just me.
Not at all. They should be rated by context of each aspect; intelligently and flexibly. In this case, the main focus was "fun", and so any humor used should play a major part in how the score is factored. If someone with a very limited sense of humor is supposed to judge a comedy competition, then they either need more fun-loving judges to balance them out, or need a strong sense of acknowledging what most people do find funny. Otherwise, they should stick to more serious competitions instead.

Granted, the intelligence plays a part in that you also need to know if the comedy was pulled off well, and if there's enough other substance to balance it out. But, if the results are supposed to mean something to the public, then general consensus SHOULD be PART of the decision-making process. Not all of it, certainly not even most of it, but SOME of it. Otherwise, more people gripe about the contest being pointless.

Of course, it should be held to a higher standard, to try and keep people expecting better than the trash they often accept. But, the ability to find the right balance is what makes a judge's job important.

I still think this contest seems to be judged very fairly so far, and pretty much agree with all the rankings to this point. It's just some of the reasonings stated ("The weird music you added to make it seem weird for fun-factor, was weird thus I dock points"), and lack of positive acknowledgment ("I can see why you did this and this, and some may enjoy that, but that and that were poorly done"), that are issues.
Which voice-in-my-head should I listen to today?

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Vector
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby Vector » 7 years ago

The music for this one fit the level so well :D

Good job, kirbyy!

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MrDeePay
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby MrDeePay » 7 years ago

ZaCloud wrote:Not at all. They should be rated by context of each aspect; intelligently and flexibly. In this case, the main focus was "fun", and so any humor used should play a major part in how the score is factored.

If someone with a very limited sense of humor is supposed to judge a comedy competition, then they either need more fun-loving judges to balance them out, or need a strong sense of acknowledging what most people do find funny. Otherwise, they should stick to more serious competitions instead.
All categories should be weighed equally across all entries; otherwise you're just asking for trouble. Ultimately, this is a level design contest and everything should be factored in; not just what you like, see, hear, or "have fun" with. Just because this level aimed at trying to "lol so funee" at the expense of the actual meat of the level doesn't mean it should get extra credit (though it may due to the Fun category, which by all intents and purposes is just "Curve" under a prettier name.
Granted, the intelligence plays a part in that you also need to know if the comedy was pulled off well, and if there's enough other substance to balance it out. But, if the results are supposed to mean something to the public, then general consensus SHOULD be PART of the decision-making process. Not all of it, certainly not even most of it, but SOME of it. Otherwise, more people gripe about the contest being pointless.
People who never played any of the entries in question griping about this or that place doing better? ....Yeah.

Unless they can provide some sound reasoning for their griping (I feel that GI deserves every bit of backlash they got from their PMTTYD and Sonic Generations reviews, for example.), then their input doesn't really mean jack shit.
It's just some of the reasonings stated ("The weird music you added to make it seem weird for fun-factor, was weird thus I dock points"),
Music helps with the atmosphere, setting, mood, pacing, etc. of a level. A good fitting song can really make a level even better and a bad one can detract from the experience.
and lack of positive acknowledgment ("I can see why you did this and this, and some may enjoy that, but that and that were poorly done"), that are issues.
[/quote][/quote]

Easier to call out faults than to sing praises.
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Paperkoopa
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby Paperkoopa » 7 years ago

The level was way too dark. The vanilla dome 4 background would have been dark aswell but still bright enough to see everything, I guess.
Also the level had a lot of mean tricks.
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gamercal
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby gamercal » 7 years ago

I dunno, I genuinely loved today's level. It looked really creative (meaningful use of the crazy ground!), it overall wasn't TOO bad, and the secret exit was actually pretty intuitive when you did the normal exit first. OK, FINDING it is another matter, but that pipe at the end of the normal exit gave a hint that you may want to look out for another such area, so yeah!

The music sounded like a really awesome remix of the Zelda LttP story cutscene song. That would be a track I'd really like to see used in a water level...

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TomPhanto
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby TomPhanto » 7 years ago

So, I just realized there's a little issue with my level.
Apparently, I put a teleport block in the beginning of my level to test the entrance to a secret room I have. And I forgot to remove it for the final IPS.
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby Argumentable » 7 years ago

"I really enjoyed your level" ??????

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TomPhanto
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby TomPhanto » 7 years ago

Today's level though gave me a hard time as well. I felt there was a lot of Big Mario discrimination and confusion. :? It just felt too tight in some places. Though not as bad as that one Door Cirno level
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Frozelar
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby Frozelar » 7 years ago

Paperkoopa wrote:The level was way too dark. The vanilla dome 4 background would have been dark aswell but still bright enough to see everything, I guess.
Also the level had a lot of mean tricks.
Hmm, I guess I can kinda see what you mean by it was a bit on the dark side. Although I wanted to kind of balance out the difficulty with a sense of calmness.

And as far as the "mean tricks", that's not what I intended them to be (obviously), but I was more so heading towards the path of "watch out for what you do and inspect things before moving forward" or something.

Also in the readme I included "Whenever you're in doubt, trust the coins." As in, if you're ever not sure exactly what the gold tiles do, look for if they have coins or not. Or look at the color of the coins. :P
gamercal wrote:I dunno, I genuinely loved today's level. It looked really creative (meaningful use of the crazy ground!), it overall wasn't TOO bad, and the secret exit was actually pretty intuitive when you did the normal exit first. OK, FINDING it is another matter, but that pipe at the end of the normal exit gave a hint that you may want to look out for another such area, so yeah!

The music sounded like a really awesome remix of the Zelda LttP story cutscene song. That would be a track I'd really like to see used in a water level...
Thanks so much! I'm really glad you liked my level.

And the music is called "Project Emotion", which is a custom track and can obviously be found on SMWCentral.
TomPhanto wrote:Today's level though gave me a hard time as well. I felt there was a lot of Big Mario discrimination and confusion. It just felt too tight in some places. Though not as bad as that one Door Cirno level
Yeah, I guess some of the jumps were pretty tight, but once again I'd like to bring up the whole be careful and look before you do thing. :P
___________________________________________________________

And also I'm really honored that raocow said he'd like to see me do something in the A2MT switch palaces... I was considering doing something for A2MT a little while after it started but I figured that since I'd never made a level before (yes, Spontaneous Cave! was indeed my first actual level save for a little bit of messing around in Lunar Magic and Map 16 and whatnot) it would be pretty confusing with all the extra stuff you had to do with Map 16 and everything just to get your level in. But ehh, now I'm a bit more experienced and I may more or less look into it. But anyways this doesn't really belong here.

Anyways man, when I saw my level when I clicked on raocow's channel my stomach exploded. I just... man, wow! And stuff and things!

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alex2
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby alex2 » 7 years ago

My thoughts:
Stupid difficulty via fake ground and walls that hurt you with NO INDICATION of it.

Ugh, this wasn't a very fun level to play at all.
frostyfish88 wrote:Also in the readme I included "Whenever you're in doubt, trust the coins." As in, if you're ever not sure exactly what the gold tiles do, look for if they have coins or not. Or look at the color of the coins. :P
There's a point where the gold blocks hurt you randomly, and there isn't a coin anywhere near them.
Warning: Opinions expressed by alex2 or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of alex2 himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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Frozelar
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby Frozelar » 7 years ago

Alex wrote:(Put this under a spoiler simply to save room)
My thoughts:
Stupid difficulty via fake ground and walls that hurt you with NO INDICATION of it.

Ugh, this wasn't a very fun level to play at all.
frostyfish88 wrote:Also in the readme I included "Whenever you're in doubt, trust the coins." As in, if you're ever not sure exactly what the gold tiles do, look for if they have coins or not. Or look at the color of the coins. :P
There's a point where the gold blocks hurt you randomly, and there isn't a coin anywhere near them.
Well yes, that would be the whole point: if there's no coins, it usually means some form of hit or death or something. I guess I could have made that more clear though. I see exactly what you mean. This is pretty much strictly a learning experience for me ;)

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alex2
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby alex2 » 7 years ago

Warning: Opinions expressed by alex2 or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of alex2 himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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limepie20
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby limepie20 » 7 years ago

Level Design
There were many things I liked and disliked about the level design. First of all, upon starting the level, I thought it was broken because I couldn’t figure out that the green rock was climbable. Also, the blue rock got in your way a lot and made some difficult areas cheap because you couldn’t see anything. And the yellow rock made no sense. It was a weird design decision to have coins dictate where it is solid and made no sense in the context of the level. I really liked though that the gimmick was integrated well with the gameplay. Also, I liked how there were split paths.

Atmosphere
Sometimes the level felt cluttered and was hard to look at because of all of the things going on. It messed with my head, and I often subconsciously blotted out some green or gold rock and became lost or killed because of it. The music was nice, though.

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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby Servant » 7 years ago

I like to see raocow be a judge in a future contest so people can scream at his decisions.

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alex2
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby alex2 » 7 years ago

They wouldn't question his decisions at all.
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby AUS » 7 years ago

MrDeePay wrote:All categories should be weighed equally across all entries; otherwise you're just asking for trouble. Ultimately, this is a level design contest and everything should be factored in; not just what you like, see, hear, or "have fun" with. Just because this level aimed at trying to "lol so funee" at the expense of the actual meat of the level doesn't mean it should get extra credit
Two things

One, I count comedy as gameplay when you're thinking of categories to vote on (Graphics, Music, Functionality, Gameplay) gameplay is usually "everything else" to me. The experience playing the game. So if the game really is that funny I'd love it. To me, gameplay is already the most important thing, so even if its graphics are crap and the music is OK, if it's really just that funny it can be great to me.

Two, the level was not that funny.
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby peteyboo » 7 years ago

Yo, Alex, as I said on your video, you touched a "red" block instead of a gold one. The red ones extend above the gold ones, and you never see Mario on the screen when he's getting hurt, so... it's red.

Also, Hyper 6 has taught me enough that none of these tricks actually tricked me. Even if they did, you should quickly learn that coins = safe because of the Green Koopa on the gold blocks. He will fall through exactly when the coins end. There's nothing unfair here if you just take your time... well, other than that one place with the Goomba and dodging all the Volcano Lotus pollen, that's kinda mean.

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Cup
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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby Cup » 7 years ago

Haha this is one I just don't get. I watch Argue talk about it in Bwarch's video, I read limepie's comments. I just can't relate! I thought this level was extremely clever, not nearly as hard as these two let's plays made it out to be, and genuinely fun and engaging. Easily one of my favorites in the contest.

So very well done frostyfish. Apparently it's not for everyone, but I had fun.

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Re: The Talkhaus "Make A Good Level" Contest -- Discussion

Postby Bwarch » 7 years ago

Cup wrote:Haha this is one I just don't get. I watch Argue talk about it in Bwarch's video
Cup wrote:not nearly as hard as these two let's plays made it out to be,
My LP is not relative to the level's difficulty at all. I made it out to be that it was insane difficulty when it was maybe softly medium. That is my fault entirely.

It has some issues, though. I think looking at Frostyfish's comments around that he expected people to attach a meaning to everything they saw.
Well yes, that would be the whole point: if there's no coins, it usually means some form of hit or death or something.
I can't imagine too many people attach this much significance to coins where they would notice when they are missing.


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