(shouting)

What are we even doing?

we don't need no edu - I mean, these threads, anymore.
DaxterSpeed
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What are we even doing?

Post by DaxterSpeed »

If you've been able to follow this project you would have notice that it's nearly without management. Tails_155 became leader early on, though he hasn't been able to show the required skills needed to lead a project of this size. flameofdoubt never really were a leader, he's mainly a part of the level clearing process at the moment. Both of these users are the "supreme" leaders for this project. They are here to make this project move forward in a manageable speed, but they're actually not even here and the project is slowly heading towards a disaster.

The only user managing this project seems to be limepie20, and he's a great user overall but you shouldn't forget how well he can behave. Because of many things, mainly from how he has managed being left as a leader, I don't think he would become a very great leader (he should continue what he does best though, most of it is great).

Here's my question, what do we even have currently? Well, we do have a base rom, we got sprites, a "plot" and a steady income of levels, but in the end no one to manage this.

I'm proposing a huge change in management for this thing, which should also leave the level creators unharmed (this is very, very important). What we truly need now is an understandable way to "manage the managers". We need people to do / finish the asm we got planned for the hack. Do the yoshi coins work like they should? Do chests works like they should? Should we even keep the chests or should we create better simpler rewards for players who scavenge?

Secondarily we also need to fix this forum up a little. I'm not talking about adding subforums (eugh), but rather creating new topics for a few highly important things. We need some kind of super sticky that explains how certain elements of this project works, like how your inform us about your level progress and who's who in the management.
We're also gonna have to redo the plot thread. We need a good first post explaining our plot (don't tell me it's not finished, we have a plot that can be roughly explained in a paragraph or two), where we would also bring forth the discussion of style and basically what the game will tell the player, to bring the plot forward.

But first and foremost, we need a leader capable and willing to do all this, to make this thing go forward. And sadly I'm unable to propose someone to lead this project, but hopefully someone more actively following this project can.

Now don't come with any counterargument stating "we're doing fine" or "this project has caught up lately", you know that it hasn't, we might have people creating levels because of our new decently working deadlines, but we don't have anyone chosen to manage these levels properly.

tl;dr: I want discussion on how we're gonna re-manage this forum (what new stickies we need, what format and of course what must go) but also what we're gonna do with our management (i.e. Dax must go he just ruins our groove).
Last edited by DaxterSpeed 9 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: This doesn't need to be stickied. Decluttering.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by DaxterSpeed »

I'm just gonna do a little double post to separate first post from extra info.
I'm trying to huge changes on important threads, but I will need input from you guys to manage that at all. I'm currently unsure about a lot of the changes I want done. The most important change is of course the sticky-remake, where I'll simply lower the amount of stickies by setting it all in one good sticky.

Though I truly want the plot thread changed and controlled.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by raocow »

This is all well and good but... Like you said, who? This project was essentially decided to be a good idea by a plurality of people, not a single individual. It basically got started on its own momemtum, not a single leader figure that said 'this is a good idea, let's do this'.

I mean, you said it yourself, we need a real leader, but you don't have anyone to propose. I'm all ears if you are ready to propose someone! Same thing with the stickies - you say change is needed, but to what purpose exactly. What are the current stickes doing wrong? What has to be 'fixed'?

Like, I understand that you want something changed, but you are kind of vague as to the actual details.

re: plot - that too is there because of the 'community' and you all know how I feel about it.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by Cup »

I nominate Daxterspeed.

There are quite a few useless and outdated stickies/threads that could be combined or deleted, which was the first thing Dax started doing as soon as he got back. I trust his judgement with the specifics and put out a vote to give him official permission to tidy things up. He has a good eye, and a team of Daxterspeed + limepie could very easily fit the mold left by FoD and Tails. Limpepie does a great job with a lot of necessary tasks, but if Daxterspeed can stay involved, it'd be great to have him around and making decisions.

Plus he has a good relationship with smwc and the people there. Considering the lack of asm learned people involved, I'm not hating the politics.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by limepie20 »

I'm no leader. I can't argue with that.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by DaxterSpeed »

Cup wrote:I nominate Daxterspeed.
Thanks, I've thought about this myself and I am very unsure. I know ycz manage even though he had irl stuff, but it really depends on other things (and my relation to smwc is debatable, but I don't call it bad really :P)
limepie20 wrote:I'm no leader. I can't argue with that.
I seriously tried not to sound mean, but it's often quite hard...

@raocow: The current problem is that we have a flood of useless / outdated stickies. New stickies with better format would make it easier for all the level designers to get actual information while also making it easier to maintain them.
And yeah it's the details I want some help with. I do want a change and I will do my best to make sure it happens in a way that makes sense for everyone, and therefore I need input from peeps.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by S.N.N. »

I've noticed a lot of the older users left/went inactive/aren't involved in the project (chdata, Kil, few others). I can tell you right now that when it comes down to doing the actual coding and inserting, you're going to be deadlocked and you'll fall into the same pit VIP5 did. You may get the levels done, but you'll have no one to piece it all together and set up the in-between stuff.

I do enjoy partaking in these "management" conversations and offering potential ways to help. It's hard to offer much though, honestly. A lot of it boils down to the population (which is why SMWCP2 is already caught up to you guys/ahead in terms of progress, even though it's been around for 7-8 months less). You need to get coders and leadership types genuinely interested in the thing, and this can be particularly difficult, especially at this stage in the game. What makes it even harder is that the current management IS all over the place. limepie20 is doing his thing and all, but he even said himself that he's not really a leader type.

Would I nominate DaxterSpeed as a leader of it? I don't know. I think people really underestimate the amount of time you need to spend on these things, and once they get into it, they get overwhelmed. I'm between semesters right now, but I find myself spending hours a day on SMWCP2, keeping everyone up to speed with their levels via reminder PMs, and even helping out the discouraged ones with coding, motivation, and whatnot. You can't just come in, insert a few things, and drop off of the face of the project all the time. You need to be willing to converse with -everyone- involved about -everything- involved. You should know the ins and outs if the project. If you don't, you shouldn't be leading it.

Find the person who satisfies all of the above, and you've found your leader.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by ProfessorDemetri »

Guise... guise, wait, I got an idea guise.
Being as this is a collab hack, made by the talk haus, why don't we have..
wait for it guise..
The talkhaus be the manager. I KNOW, WHAT??

Okay enough with the fooling around, but my point still kinda stands.
Daxter, you're totally right, and I've been agreeing with you since day 1 that the management in this project has been lack luster. Firstly we had management, and then everyone kinda got distracted and fell off the wagon, as it were, and now, Lime's doing mostly everything with some help from other mods.

Let me be clear here, not any one person is fit to be running this project. I mean that this should be a multiple player project, and it should stay the way it's transformed into. You know why? Because piling something this big onto one person is unfair. Case in point, every mod that tried to take this on has, OH MAN, real life came up and took their time away from it. And that's not a judgement call, that's reality. We can't expect anyone to be here 24/7.

And that's why having specific managers for different areas of the hack is completely fine. They can stay in their little niche's and manage what they have experience with managing. As long as all the levels, music, sprites,etc, get into the hack, and the hack gets completed, I don't see the need to have a project head, as the project is still chugging along fine. Levels are being made, music is ported, sprites are sprited, and blah blah.

Why are we having this conversation again? lol
DaxterSpeed wrote:Now don't come with any counterargument stating...
Lulwut? So you want discussion but you don't want discussion? Uuuh... Ooookay then, that's neato.
Contrary to others that have said it, noone currently here should be the project head of this hack. Because no one is here enough of the time. Each single one of us, side from raocow, has either, not been here the entire time, disappeared from time to time, or just simply fallen off the project a few times, including me.
So we currently don't have a nominee.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by ProfessorDemetri »

And to just break this up from that massive wall o' text before...
On the topics of stickies, because noone really did a break down of what we need, or want.. here's a few suggestions.
-Take this topic off stickie.
-Sign ups and Reservations (this still needs to be stickied)
-Base rom inclusion should be unstickied, and the base rom should be included in the signs ups.
-Level submissions and clearing should be unstickied, because that honestly doesn't happen as often as we'd like.
-Testing and Dev (still stickied with deadlines)
-Where are we at should be unstickied.
-Patches still need to be stickied and also merged with the ASM HELP thread.
-Information manager should be unstickied and the wiki should be added to sign ups.
-Sprites and blocks still need stickied and added to this thread the sprite/block request thread.
-GFX and Pallette request thread should be merged with the A2MT GFX thread and stickied.
-Announcements unstickied untill there's a more recent announcement.
-Rules should also be unstickied, and the information there in should be added to signups.
-Plot, Overworld and boss discussion should be in the same thread, and stickied
-What the hell is SMBX engine remake and content replacement doing here? Move these somewhere else out of A2MT
-Music discussion and help should be merged into one thread and stickied.

So that leaves 7 stickies as opposed to 12.
Basically we want a stickie that is a discussion about different aspects of the game that are kinda similar.
Music, sprites and blocks, GFX and palettes, etc.
Things that shouldn't be stickied as redundant threads, or things that are a 'per individual' basis. Like someone having trouble with something that they don't think applies to the above topics.
Also the Clearing and Submissions shouldn't be stickied because they're not all that often used, and were confusing new members to the project.

Welp, that's just my opinion. I think that'll clean up alot though. :ugeek:
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by raocow »

Even if they aren't as frequently posted in, clearing and submission really should stay cleared to be as close to the top of the page as possible.

Otherwise.. what can I say? It,s not the project's fault if some people at the start of the project decided to take some responsibility, and then just drop everything without warning.

A bigger, really problem is that not enough people participate on the 'lower' level. Nobodoy ever, ever posts to offer help in ANY of the 'dudes I need help' thread. EVER. And that is doing a much better job killing everything, and what I'd use as a way stronger argument to just kill the whole thing than 'oh man managers~~~~~~'
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by ProfessorDemetri »

Agreed.
But with the threads organized better, then the managers or mods or whatever, could easily see that more people need help.
I mean EVERYONE helps each other in the testings and dev. thread. On anything. ASM, GFX, whatever. So like I said, unifying the threads into something more consistant would be helpful, atleast a lil bit. So we can keep better tabs on each other and on the people that need help. Tis all.

It was never the project's fault that people get lazy lol. It's the people's fault. That's why I don't understand the excuse, 'welp, I haz no tymez'. I mean, even coming on to check on everyone like 10 minutes every two days isn't hard. And isn't too much to ask. It's finding someone that's willing to do that, that's the problem lol.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by Slit08 »

Easy thing. raocow should be the leader. It is his community and the first game basically existed just because of him. Why not make him the leader?
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by raocow »

I'm a terrible leader (I'm way too passive)
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by limepie20 »

I wanna put out there that I'd be upset if I lost my signups/level insertion job.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by Slit08 »

BTW, I don't think that SMWCP 2 has caught up any near to A2MT. During the course of last week I have played many of A2MT's stages and many of them are finished or nearing completion and many other are nearing their finishing touches. i think the game has a decent progress. Sure it is not extremely fast still we've got many great levels, that have already been finished or are currently developed. Don't give up on this project.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by raocow »

no way in hell are you loosing your job limepie! The way I see it, we need something to make the blood run in this frankenstein, and that's what you are doing. The 'mechanics' are working. What people are looking for now is a brain to put in the frankenstein's head.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by ProfessorDemetri »

Can I be the lightning? lol :lol:

Edit:
So I'm sitting here in a small shack, my work, just about at the end of my shift to go home, and I'm thinking, and bein' all philosophical and junk...
And I was thinking...
Deadlines and all are cool, but the people that are really willing to stick it out, don't really need them.. I mean they'll be updating every couple of days to get it finished, and help others, and blah blah.
The ones that are willing to stay don't need reminders... ya know what I mean?
I dunno, just a thought that I wanted to share with you guys lol. :lol:
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by raocow »

Eh, some people, even when they are really into a thing, just need a 'due date' to finish something, that's purely psychological, and to be expected.

God knows I'm like that!
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by ProfessorDemetri »

Yeah fair enough, me too sometimes, I'll admit it lol. :oops:
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by raocow »

This is the reason I do two videos per deadlines, by the way. If anyone is curious about the methods of my madness:

For those who don't know, I took two years of 'Highschool Education' class at university a while ago. Ultimately I dropped out because I am NOT a people person, and I just don't have the 'front-going' personality you need for something like this. Anyway, one of the many subjects that was discussed in one of them classes was the thing about deadlines. Setting a good deadline is somewhat of an art: you need to give enough time for peeps to do their thing, but too long and it's like you didn't give any - people give it lesser priority, and end up doing it at the last minute anyway.

For example, I reckon the deadline in smwcp2 was wayyyy too late, with the end of july, starting from somewhere in june. That's just way too far in the future, especially for a project on the internet, where a week is considered 'for ever'. This is why I like this system - istead of going 'in two months be done with this', we go 'in one month show how far you are, so in a month later you can be done'. Thus, the four week milestones.

Though that's still too much for some peeps, which is why I make another 'reminder' video one week before. This isn't desperation, it isn't trying to be belittling, it's just simple psychology. Some people can work with long deadlines, but some need short-range ones, and I'm glad to help with those. After all, it's the internet, and it's a volontary project.

What bums me out is that we didn't do this sooner, or a lot of incompleted levels that have seemingly abandonned would probably have been completed by now.

Speaking of: I'm thinking of fishing out all the levels that where put up for testing in the testing thread, and offering people the chance to 'complete' them, and have the levels dual-credited. Would anyone be game with that?
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by shdwdrgnix »

raocow wrote: Speaking of: I'm thinking of fishing out all the levels that where put up for testing in the testing thread, and offering people the chance to 'complete' them, and have the levels dual-credited. Would anyone be game with that?

That would be a great idea, since I've seen a lot of these abandonned levels and most had really nice things with them.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by raocow »

Before I do that, however, I kind of want to make sure I have volonteers ahead of time. Mind you, it should be a lot less work than making a full level - it's basically taking what it is and finishing it, and putting it up to standard. Hopefully, a minimal amount of work.

While I'm ranting about this project: the chest.

The chest was proposed by chdata, and worked on by chdata, and then he disapeared. He said they worked except for like a bug somewhere, but we wouldn't know since I don't recall him ever posting a link anywhere to it. Thing is, with the emphasis on dragon coins, I'm kind of wondering if the 'chests' are necessary.

But then the question becomes: what do we do with all the levels with a chest already 'placed' in it? I thought about turning those into secret exits, since an open-map could use a lot of those, though that would create a problem with those levels that ALREADY have a secret exit. Also, it'd be more work for limepie - he'd have to go in all the inserted level and replaced the 'chest location' with a key and keyhole, I guess.

What I'm saying here is that some fat may need trimming? That is, unless chdata pops up with a finished chest, or someone is willing to finish his work (and getting his codes somehow)
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by Diortem »

raocow wrote:That is, unless chdata pops up with a finished chest, or someone is willing to finish his work (and getting his codes somehow)
Good point, well made. Since I'd like to help out a bit more, but I fear making another full level would consume too much time (my current level + custom sprite has costed me more than a week's worth of hours :P). Therefore, I'd like to volunteer on working on the Chest code. If allowed I wouldn't mind fixing/finishing it. :D
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by raocow »

Go ahead, but you'll have to track chdata down.
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Re: What are we even doing?

Post by Diortem »

raocow wrote:Go ahead, but you'll have to track chdata down.
That, might be the real item. I don't even know the guy, but I'll send him a PM/mail. If anyone has contact with him could you please tell me? Thank you.
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