(shouting)

A2MT Progression?

we don't need no edu - I mean, these threads, anymore.
User avatar
ProfessorDemetri
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: BC, Canada

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by ProfessorDemetri »

Kil: lol, For the record, I'm off of youtube, and am 24. Not all of us are punk kids doing T3H HACKZ! lol But I do like your multitiered idea about deadlines, yo. :lol:
Image
Image
If you need help with anything, contact me on my skype: Demekun
Halo3Ameture
Posts: 0
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: youtube.com

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by Halo3Ameture »

I would Like to Help with this Project...Are there any Positions left?
limepie20
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Doesn't Matter

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by limepie20 »

You can make a level or check the music/graphics/asm theads and fulfill people's requests.
S.N.N.
Posts: 561
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by S.N.N. »

kil3 wrote:2) Recruit people from SMWC. There's some good level designers on SMWC.
Except about 99% of them are already working on a level for SMWCP2, so .. welp.

Like I said on YouTube, this project needs a defined leader. I've been saying this for the longest time, honestly, and without any sort of real enforcement, people will slack off and eventually become disinterested. In the past two months, I've barely seen any posts from Tails_155 until recently (who is supposed to be the "leader" of this thing). No offense, but that's not good management - if you know you're going to be busy with school and can't focus on the project, the helm needs to be passed to someone who can.

I'm going to agree with Kil about the YouTube thing. Look at the post above mine (Halo3Ameture) for a perfect example. While the intentions are there, a lot of these people who are being recruited have no idea how the project is being run, no idea how the inner workings of the project function, and ultimately won't understand how to make their level fit in.

Another matter, which I believe I mentioned before, is that many of the people who worked on ASMT either left or have no interest in this project. That is something that can't be controlled, and it's really unfortunate. In fact, it's one of the main reasons why I was worried this project wouldn't get far from the start, and it is starting to be confirmed. It's great that new blood is trying to be pulled into the scene, but these new people just don't know what's going on...

...which brings me to my next point - the strictness. Although this has already been mentioned numerous times, you guys are expecting way, WAY too much out of people. It's great that there is quality control this time around, but if you tell a person off too many times, they're going to get demotivated and give up. Each level doesn't need to be a shining star - sure, you don't want to accept pure crap, but if it's a fun vanilla level, take it anyway. Just because it doesn't have a SUPER CREATIVE MIND-BLOWING ASM GIMMICK OOOH AAAAH doesn't mean people won't find it fun to play. A lot of the more gimmicky levels in SMWCP, for instance, were actually overdone, and it turned out to be the vanilla levels which acted as some of the best in the hack.

Overall .. I don't know anymore. I used to be really positive about this project, but nowadays I only check in periodically. I wish I could offer the "perfect" solution, but there really isn't one. I am still to this day amazed at how ASMT managed to get finished in under a year, and I am very proud of the leadership of that project .. but this one seems a lot different. To most people, I sense it is starting to feel like a chore.
User avatar
AUS
Toni#4796
Posts: 483
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Toni
Pronouns: they/them/their
Location: アース

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by AUS »

S.N.N. wrote:but if it's a fun vanilla level, take it anyway. Just because it doesn't have a SUPER CREATIVE MIND-BLOWING ASM GIMMICK OOOH AAAAH doesn't mean people won't find it fun to play.
My level has a SUPER CREATE MIND-BLOWING GIMMICK OOOH AAAAH, and it's completely vanilla... :?

I know, just being nitpicky. :P
Image
"oh no my best friend was replaced by a evil demon shadow monster"
"argh i am the evil shadow monster demon shadow"
Vip is pronounced "Beep"
nostalgic realtime nitroid let's play playlist
User avatar
raocow
the death of the incredible huge
Posts: 4075
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: maybe the Wizards are the most complex, and the sales guys are up their daily
https://raocow.talkhaus.com/

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by raocow »

S.N.N. wrote:
kil3 wrote:2) Recruit people from SMWC. There's some good level designers on SMWC.
Except about 99% of them are already working on a level for SMWCP2, so .. welp.
The annoying bit is the amount of people who took a level for swmcp2 while never having finished (or really shown most of anything) their a2mt level :/
the chillaxest of dragonsImage
Image
Image
User avatar
Yonowaaru
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Somewhere in the Nethereal Lands?

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by Yonowaaru »

Eh, raocow's kinda right and I'm part of that group. I'm working on both at the same time, which kinda works, but slowly. I just haven't posted any testing things yet here because my main level gimmick requires something that does not yet exist as far as I know....
GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
capefeather
Posts: 0
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by capefeather »

I don't know if the hard deadline idea will help. Sometimes people can't prioritize this project high enough for their levels to progress at a quick rate, but the point is that the levels are progressing. I feel like this might just end up throwing away a potentially good level by someone whose timing got thrown off or who suddenly couldn't find enough inspiration to finish the level for a while. I signed up to the reserve list fully expecting to get a start during the summer, only to get my level at the end of October. There are more layers to this than just the raw ability to juggle work.

It's also hard when the forums here are either practically deserted or too bustling with activity to get proper attention. I've personally had next to no feedback on anything that I've posted, though I suppose that's understandable. I'm not here to blame anyone for anything. My level's been in a sort of limbo for a while because I've been trying to decide on a level-ending solution that accounts for both the presence and the lack of a boss (maybe I'll learn to ASM one or one will be attached). During that time, I have played with palettes and playtested what I have so far. I think that one more room should do it.
User avatar
TRS
Posts: 38
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by TRS »

S.N.N. wrote:
kil3 wrote:2) Recruit people from SMWC. There's some good level designers on SMWC.
Except about 99% of them are already working on a level for SMWCP2, so .. welp.
Some of those people can make more than one level at a time. I signed up for the reserve list (sadly after previously giving up my level slot a few months before, but that's a different story :< ) about a week before SMWCP2 signups started, and have been checking for the "you got a level" message every day since then.

Although the level idea I came up with ended up being used for SMWCP2, but I can think up a new one.
User avatar
AUS
Toni#4796
Posts: 483
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Toni
Pronouns: they/them/their
Location: アース

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by AUS »

capefeather wrote:I've personally had next to no feedback on anything that I've posted, though I suppose that's understandable. I'm not here to blame anyone for anything.
On that note, I'd like to blame people for stuff. Stop laying all the blame on the level designers, they're not the sole problem here. Them and their fragile minds that can't take the smallest amount of pressure may not be the root of this problem.

Or maybe they are. I dunno. Anyone else have a topic for discussion?
Image
"oh no my best friend was replaced by a evil demon shadow monster"
"argh i am the evil shadow monster demon shadow"
Vip is pronounced "Beep"
nostalgic realtime nitroid let's play playlist
limepie20
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Doesn't Matter

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by limepie20 »

TRS wrote:
S.N.N. wrote:
kil3 wrote:2) Recruit people from SMWC. There's some good level designers on SMWC.
Except about 99% of them are already working on a level for SMWCP2, so .. welp.
Some of those people can make more than one level at a time. I signed up for the reserve list (sadly after previously giving up my level slot a few months before, but that's a different story :< ) about a week before SMWCP2 signups started, and have been checking for the "you got a level" message every day since then.

Although the level idea I came up with ended up being used for SMWCP2, but I can think up a new one.
Someone pm'd me and resigned today so you'll get a level as soon as the wiki is back up and I can manage things. I'll also free a couple other levels. I van see how open levels are a lot more encouraging than a reserve list and could help.
Cup
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by Cup »

SNN is exactly right. Leadership is what's missing, and leadership is the one thing we're not likely to get, because no one with the presence or ability is stepping up with the drive to take the role. I would ask that raocow forsake his attempts at a blind-ish lp and take the job upon himself as he mentioned the most important thing this project has been missing in his comments before actual construction even began. Deadlines, but I'll get to that in a second. raocow running the project though probably wouldn't be worth it, as his lp of the game is probably the single most important aspect. But if he wants to make the sacrifice, I think his ideas and leadership would get the hack finished at least.

The big problem is deadlines though, and we can't have deadlines without leadership. But what raocow said a year ago, along the lines of, "I'd give em two weeks tops. Maybe an extension if they show they're actively working on something that would legitimately take longer." We don't want people making levels if they can only work on them for 20 minutes every third Saturday. The best thing that could happen right now would be a throughout pruning of the level signups. I would much rather see 80% of the current levels dropped if it meant we had 20% of them being actively worked on.

A two week window across the board asking for progress wouldn't go amiss. I don't think a reply of, "Summer's coming up and I'll have time then. Look for me in a month!" should be good enough. Unless they have a very good reason for not posting considerable progress over the next two weeks, they should enter into a tiered sign up list like Kil suggested, or just surrender the level altogether.

Aside from that though, SNN, since summer IS coming up (and with strong leadership this project shouldn't last into the fall), are they're any students over at SMWC that are capable and would be open to leading this project over their vacation? A lot of the blocks are already in place, and I think this project will end up being a lot of fun for anyone who might want to take up the torch. If you know of anyone available or possibly willing, I would very much appreciate you explaining the situation and asking for help on the talkhaus' behalf.

We just lost too many of the people that made ASMT happen. Without YCZ, Argu, Kil, etc, we were counting on new leadership, but both Tails and FoD had to withdraw their hand due to time restraints, leaving us with no defined manager. And that's how it's been for months. With a leader we can set deadlines, and with deadlines we can move forward.

Losing an amazing level that will never get done and having a blank space on the level list is better than sitting in limbo for a month, a year, 2 years. A thirty to forty level hack of the quality demanded by our testing process will still be amazing. If it comes down to it, sacrificing quantity over quality is the way to go. I don't think the problem is with the standards, just with management and deadlines.
Last edited by Cup 13 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
cheez8
Food Nut
Posts: 285
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by cheez8 »

As one of the people clogging up a level spot without actually showing much progress, I would like to apologize. I've gone way too long without showing anything, even though I have a level that's nearly finished, and the only reason I haven't even shown anything in the Testing thread is mainly because I haven't added any custom graphics yet... which I still cannot make properly to save my life. I'm just wondering, in this situation, should I put something in the testing thread regardless, just to prove I have been making progress and to get feedback on the level design?
Image
Image
Image
Image
I don't really get it but okay
User avatar
ProfessorDemetri
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: BC, Canada

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by ProfessorDemetri »

Cheez: Yes, yes you should. And you realize that you don't NEED custom graphics, right?
Image
Image
If you need help with anything, contact me on my skype: Demekun
S.N.N.
Posts: 561
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by S.N.N. »

Cup wrote:are they're any students over at SMWC that are capable and would be open to leading this project over their vacation?
It's hard to say, really. Given how large the community has become, it's hard for me to keep track of who would be an ideal leader and who wouldn't anymore. There are certainly people that could probably pull it off, but the main problem is that they'd still come into the thing not knowing what's going on. I don't think trying to pull someone who doesn't visit Talkhaus in to lead this would be ideal - in fact, I don't even think attempting to grab someone from SMWC would be in your best interest at all. Level designers .. maybe, but what you're really going to want is someone from here who has been working with the hack since the start and knows exactly what to do after picking it up. Either that, or the current "leadership" needs to start taking a far more active role.

Like I said, it's hard to offer the perfect solution since a lot of things have gone wrong with this. However, pulling in an external leader is not likely to fix things - I can say this from personal experience.
TRS wrote:Some of those people can make more than one level at a time.
Yeah, but most people can't, and when people split their focus between two levels at once, neither usually ends up being fantastic. This is partially why I restricted SMWCP2 signups so that only one level could be claimed by a person at a time - it was to ensure that they gave one level their full attention rather than trying to divide it between, say, three.
User avatar
raocow
the death of the incredible huge
Posts: 4075
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: maybe the Wizards are the most complex, and the sales guys are up their daily
https://raocow.talkhaus.com/

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by raocow »

cheez8 wrote:As one of the people clogging up a level spot without actually showing much progress, I would like to apologize. I've gone way too long without showing anything, even though I have a level that's nearly finished, and the only reason I haven't even shown anything in the Testing thread is mainly because I haven't added any custom graphics yet... which I still cannot make properly to save my life. I'm just wondering, in this situation, should I put something in the testing thread regardless, just to prove I have been making progress and to get feedback on the level design?
We've said again and again that vanilla graphics are fine.

What...

Ugh.
the chillaxest of dragonsImage
Image
Image
User avatar
Tails_155
May be dead.
Posts: 23
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Kit/Tails
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: The Moon or Something.

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by Tails_155 »

flameofdoubt wrote:On the subject of gimmicks, I know I push those a lot, but that's really just because it makes it easier to put together a variety of consistent areas to make up the level, as there's already a theme. If someone can make a vanilla level with really interesting gameplay, or one that looks cool, I've no problem with there being no gimmick. The problem is that generally when people don't use some gimmick or idea or trick or theme...their vanilla levels tend to be not that strong, which is why I push for people to think up something for their level to be about.

Sorry I didn't respond earlier, a second dog of mine died yesterday (two within a month,) and I was eh... coping...


I on the other hand, have not been an avid supporter of gimmicks (I do think they're nice, however, pushing them tends to add "just one more thing," as it were...

I do think a gimmick is nice, and probably will increase the quality, but as FoD said, a good vanilla level is also going to get accepted...

My fear, though, FoD, in pushing a gimmick, is that it's a very vague statement that can risk turning people off... perhaps you should make a definition of all the things a "gimmick" can be... I, for example started with the belief that your definition of "gimmick" meant some fancy ASM work, and even now, I don't really know where "gimmick" goes, myself... "theme" is a better word, but even it is very loosely defined as "something unifying" really, which is nice, but it could confuse some people...


what I think we should do is have stricter deadlines (part of my trouble is life definitely comes first, then college, then other projects,) where people must have something submitted within a certain time, the 2 weeks idea was nice, but it kinda... does do the limbo effect... and relax the demand for a gimmick or theme, or at least tailor it to the individual situation: "Well I like the level, however, why does it go from grassland to castle to icy place? If that's the intention, it makes sense, but if you're just trying to use three different themes, there may be other ways to do that..." etc... or at least let a level be made, then suggest ideas for what "gimmick" means...

I may be the only one who had this confusion, but I am putting it on the table... I really do wish this had as high a quality standards as I originally hoped, I may not be the best example because I was able to learn LM quicker then most, I guess, but I do think that everyone can learn the basics, and even minimally "advanced" things if they just dedicate some time...

That said, I don't want this simply to be "a job" for anyone, if it's not fun, talk to us, we'll see what we can do... (please talk publicly unless you are uncomfortable, I tend to mess PMs, for example)
I'm member number 499 (⬤)∀(⬤)
kil3
Posts: 0
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by kil3 »

As I see it a gimmick is just any kind of level focus or idea. Without focus on something, the level is just going to be a bunch of hills enemies and coins. "You are in a space zoo" "You are on a tank that is shooting crap everywhere" are valid ideas that make a level more than random hills. You don't need ASM to have a focused idea. Your level could be all about triangle blocks and bouncing shell trickery, or picking some combination of vanilla elements and exploring that interaction.
User avatar
cheez8
Food Nut
Posts: 285
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by cheez8 »

raocow wrote:
cheez8 wrote:As one of the people clogging up a level spot without actually showing much progress, I would like to apologize. I've gone way too long without showing anything, even though I have a level that's nearly finished, and the only reason I haven't even shown anything in the Testing thread is mainly because I haven't added any custom graphics yet... which I still cannot make properly to save my life. I'm just wondering, in this situation, should I put something in the testing thread regardless, just to prove I have been making progress and to get feedback on the level design?
We've said again and again that vanilla graphics are fine.

What...

Ugh.
...Derp, I should have made that a lot clearer.

By custom graphics, I meant graphics for stuff that the vanilla graphics can't resemble, such as a frozen lake. Not just fancier vanilla graphics. Sorry for being unclear.

Anyway, I'll get started on that proof now.
Image
Image
Image
Image
I don't really get it but okay
User avatar
Tails_155
May be dead.
Posts: 23
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Kit/Tails
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: The Moon or Something.

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by Tails_155 »

We have a graphics request thread btw...
I'm member number 499 (⬤)∀(⬤)
User avatar
cheez8
Food Nut
Posts: 285
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by cheez8 »

I know... I just didn't really want to bother anyone with a request for a single, simple graphic that I thought I should be able to create on my own, except it turns out I'm the least competent person ever when it comes to YY-CHR. I'll probably end up asking for this in that thread once I'm done making the proof though.

Which, by the way, is only taking a while because I'm incredibly busy today and tomorrow. Spring break starts on Friday, and school has been eager to give us a bunch of projects and tests all at once. But, come Friday, I'll finally be on spring break, so at the worst I'll have to wait until then to be able to work on this.
Image
Image
Image
Image
I don't really get it but okay
User avatar
Chdata
Posts: 11
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Computer Chair

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by Chdata »

The project is frozen, as you said... people say things whenever it seems like something important happens. Most people, I assume, forget about it. I feel horrible myself, I think about the stuff I have and want to make and see finished every day, but then never work on it.

In addition to that, I've been losing interest in SMW hacking in general. I don't look at SMWC anymore, except for the asm projects thread sometimes. I haven't opened a rom in forever. I don't even watch any LP's related to SMW as often anymore.

I was also a little overwhelmed at how fast we decided to start A2MT after ASMT. It was just hey we finished this statue let's go on to the next immediately!

Along with alot of us, including me, being too ambitious. I've been worry about the treasure chests I've coded because they're basically finished, but there's one glaring glitch. And the bosses... I have great ideas that I know I can make, but I'm lazy. The patches for A2MT, I've mostly lost track of due to not paying attention to it as much.

So yeah, there's my two cents.

youtube copypaste.

btw sorry Cup :c I don't know anymore. Honestly I only make sprites and patches at random if I feel like it and I haven't felt like doing anything in smw for a long time now...

additional stuff:

I don't even know why I decided to claim my level again when I know I'm as lazy as everyone else who's taken a year to make a level, especially when I don't even consider myself good at level design, I'm just one of those "throws fancy asm in a level" guys.
Image
Trouble with a capital COW.

<math>\tan{A}\sin{N}</math>
User avatar
raocow
the death of the incredible huge
Posts: 4075
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: maybe the Wizards are the most complex, and the sales guys are up their daily
https://raocow.talkhaus.com/

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by raocow »

I know cup was helping you with your level, so on that end I hope that cup can just finish your level with the tools you have created for it, at least!
the chillaxest of dragonsImage
Image
Image
User avatar
Money
Posts: 467
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by Money »

Let it be known that I am good with doing any custom graphics that are needed.
User avatar
Tails_155
May be dead.
Posts: 23
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Kit/Tails
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: The Moon or Something.

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by Tails_155 »

cheez8 wrote:Which, by the way, is only taking a while because I'm incredibly busy today and tomorrow. Spring break starts on Friday, and school has been eager to give us a bunch of projects and tests all at once. But, come Friday, I'll finally be on spring break, so at the worst I'll have to wait until then to be able to work on this.
Tails_155 wrote:(...life definitely comes first, then [school], then other projects,)
No pressure.
I'm member number 499 (⬤)∀(⬤)
Locked