(shouting)

A2MT Progression?

we don't need no edu - I mean, these threads, anymore.
User avatar
ProfessorDemetri
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: BC, Canada

A2MT Progression?

Post by ProfessorDemetri »

The lastest raocow video jarred my spirit into getting things done.
After about the last month or so without internet, it's hard to try to catch up on everything. And believe you and me, I've been trying lol.

Sit down, gang, we need to talk. :lol:

It definately seems as if the progression of this project has slowed right down. I mean I remember when the Testings forum would have pages per day, and now it's like a post a week or something? Man, it's kinda sad. Seeing everyone else's screen shots, and videos was exciting, and inspiring, and spurred people onwards to match that type of standard of our peers.

Okay, so we can all agree it's slowed down. Where do we go from here? How can we get this to still be a success? And coming from someone that didn't work on a collab before, like this, I'm only kinda thinking outloud with you guys lol

The first thing that I think would be extremely helpful would be to get some SERIOUS mods, that are committed to whatever job they're assigned to. And I'm not saying that the mods we have now, aren't, I'm saying that when some of them give up their own levels, it kinda hurts moral... Literally on every day, working on their own levels, and so on and so forth. And maybe people should be literally assigned to figuring out where we are, and where everyone else is at. As in checking for updates from people.

Speaking of updates, I think another thing that would help would be more strict deadlines. Saying that we'd like to have updates of your level every 2 weeks, is all well, and good and all, but what we get from that is basically someone coming in, posting a screen shot, and then disappearing for another 2 weeks. I think we really need to start weeding out the people that are working too slowly, or don't seem to have much interesting, or much time to be sparing, for this type of project. Maybe, when someone signs up for a level, give them a month to complete it, no questions asked, and if, by that time, they're not done, an extension can be given, or they are taken out of the project. What this does is give the people that are willing to work on this more, a chance to get this finished within the next millenia. Mainly, we need to be stricter with the deadlines, and start cutting people out that aren't serious. I mean, I know people are in school. Shit, I work a fulltime job, graveyard shifts, but I still find time to work on levels in my own hack, and my other projects, so that's not an excuse, just as much as school isn't. (And play WoW...)

Standards are abit strict in this project also. Things that were totally okay in the original SMW, like cutoff, are definately not allowed here. I think we need to ease up abit. Granted we want things to look nice, and not be random ass youtube levels, but maybe we should look at levels just as levels. Also the gimmick per level thing, I think, is just hindering the progress. Upon taking my second level, I was hard pressed to find a gimmick. And instead I just wanted to make a level that was abit challenging to play, without a gimmick. Something that looked cool, was fun to play, and that was kinda challenging. That was the point. Mainly we don't need gimmicks every level.

I think that raocow's envolvement didn't hinder anything, or hurt it. I think that people, atleast me, liked working with you, and that made me strive to make something then I thought I couldn't before. And honestly? It's been fun to know that you interact with your fans, even through this. It's refreshing and I don't think you should stop. :oops:

I think the bigger players in this project need to really understand that most of the work is going to come from you, wether you wanted it or not. As much as this is a collab, it's really up to you guys to finish this, put it all together, and git 'er done (as it were). Speaking of which, I'm not adverse to helping that need out alot. As I mentioned earlier, I do have my own hack, and I wouldn't be against trying to submit, or give up some from my own, to help this along. I mean, that would be fine, if we needed some fun levels. Mods, check it out, and tell me what you think.

I hope I didn't offend anyone... This message wasn't supposed to get people upset, it was supposed to inspire us into working hard, and putting out an awesome game!

So I guess what I mean to say is, time to get our asses in gear, and kick ass, like we started off doing. Let's get on it guys! :)
Image
Image
If you need help with anything, contact me on my skype: Demekun
crushawake
Posts: 1
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by crushawake »

Hell, i'm not even involved in A2MT but i'd figure i'd throw in my two cents or whatever.

With what that video said in mind, I figure there is one main problem with this whole thing.

People are given a little bit too much freedom. There are (next-to) no deadlines and no strict-ish activity, and so people (seem to) figure that they can take forever with what they are doing.

If people feel that they are going to lose their level or whatever because of how much time they are taking, then they will (generally) take one of three paths:

-Work good at their thing, so that it gets done in time - Even if it's of a lower quality, this can then be built upon and changed. This way, there is definite progression, which is good.

-Give up their thing, due to (reason here). Sometimes, this is unavoidable, due to life issues or something, which must ultimately come first regardless of anything. This, although it might be backwards progress, sets the path for progression forward, so that somebody else can jump in and do it.

-Try and get an extension to their deadline. This can be either good or bad. If they are showing progress enough, and it can be judged (by screenshots or videos) that they ARE progressing, but they want to ensure a high enough quality, then this is fine, give them a little bit of extra time. If they have nothing to show for their time, then that time has been wasted, and they may as well be forced into the second option (giving their thing-slot up).

Whatever option is taken, if these deadlines are added in, then even gentle deadlines can be a push forward in the progressive direction.

Another side note is a lack of motivation, and this can be a vicious circle. Not much is seen to be happening, so people get demotivated, pushing others to be demotivated with their lack of progress. The ball needs to start rolling again, I figure.

tl;dr - Be more strict.
If you need a hand with Mario Romhacking in some way, feel free to PM me. I'll try and answer. <3
User avatar
Mandew
d'yo
Posts: 529
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Marc
Pronouns: a person
Location: canada
https://fishingseasontraversal.talkhaus.com/

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by Mandew »

I think raocow was right when he said that the standards for this hack a taaaad too high. In the beginning, I kind of noticed that the aim was to make this a grandiose hack. It's good to have ambitions, but that applies especially to single-author hacks. In collaborative hacks, especially this kind of collaboration, some people just get discouraged, I guess.

Also, yes, as crushawake said, this is kind of a vicious circle; less progress is shown to be made so in turn less progress is made.
Last edited by Mandew 13 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Image
video games
User avatar
AUS
Toni#4796
Posts: 483
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Toni
Pronouns: they/them/their
Location: アース

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by AUS »

People are given a little bit too much freedom. There are (next-to) no deadlines and no strict-ish activity, and so people (seem to) figure that they can take forever with what they are doing.
Maybe, when someone signs up for a level, give them a month to complete it, no questions asked, and if, by that time, they're not done, an extension can be given, or they are taken out of the project.
You guys are aware that one of raocow's main points that is hindering this project is that it's too strict already, right? :?

Being putting pressure on isn't fun times, bros. It's like, hey dude go make the best thing ever come back soon with it or you're slime.
Image
"oh no my best friend was replaced by a evil demon shadow monster"
"argh i am the evil shadow monster demon shadow"
Vip is pronounced "Beep"
nostalgic realtime nitroid let's play playlist
User avatar
Mandew
d'yo
Posts: 529
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Marc
Pronouns: a person
Location: canada
https://fishingseasontraversal.talkhaus.com/

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by Mandew »

AUS wrote:You guys are aware that one of raocow's main points that is hindering this project is that it's too strict already, right? :?
It's not strict in that sense. The strictness comes from the standards of the hack in question.

When it comes to deadlines, some things have to move. We have to motivate people to make their levels; a strict deadline would help that a little bit.
Last edited by Mandew 13 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Image
video games
User avatar
AUS
Toni#4796
Posts: 483
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Toni
Pronouns: they/them/their
Location: アース

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by AUS »

Exactly, so why put even more strictness on?
Image
"oh no my best friend was replaced by a evil demon shadow monster"
"argh i am the evil shadow monster demon shadow"
Vip is pronounced "Beep"
nostalgic realtime nitroid let's play playlist
User avatar
ProfessorDemetri
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: BC, Canada

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by ProfessorDemetri »

AUS: I think what raocow didn't like was the strictness being about design. I'm asking for strict deadlines, not design, and infact, if you had read thoroughly, I said that we should be open for looser designs, without gimmicks, and not being SUPER AWESOME SPECTACULAR. I don't know what you're talking about here. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Crush: Precisely my thoughts. Thanks for seeing it too.

Mandew: Yup.
Image
Image
If you need help with anything, contact me on my skype: Demekun
User avatar
raocow
the death of the incredible huge
Posts: 4075
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: maybe the Wizards are the most complex, and the sales guys are up their daily
https://raocow.talkhaus.com/

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by raocow »

No, no, AUS, I think you read that the wrong way.

I think they're pushing for stricter deadlines, but less strict, ah, 'level quality threshold' (basically, just having a good fun, completed level done, rather than 'the best level ever' done)
the chillaxest of dragonsImage
Image
Image
crushawake
Posts: 1
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by crushawake »

AUS wrote:You guys are aware that one of raocow's main points that is hindering this project is that it's too strict already, right? :?
He's stating that the standards of quality are too high, not the deadlines and such. Basically, i'm stating that there is too much time-freedom. In ASMT, there were deadlines set by YCZ if I recall, and I don't think any have been set on this thing? (don't quote me on that).
Even if the stuff handed in by the deadline is absolutely terrible, at least then you have progress. Then you have something you can build on and make good.
If you need a hand with Mario Romhacking in some way, feel free to PM me. I'll try and answer. <3
User avatar
AUS
Toni#4796
Posts: 483
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Toni
Pronouns: they/them/their
Location: アース

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by AUS »

I think what raocow didn't like was the strictness being about design.
I hear "strictness" as "strictness" and you may be asking for lacs strictness in some areas but you make up for it with more strictness in others and it's just a big run-around isn't it?
I think they're pushing for stricter deadlines, but less strict, ah, 'level quality threshold' (basically, just having a good fun, completed level done, rather than 'the best level ever' done)
:oops:
...
But will that help?
Image
"oh no my best friend was replaced by a evil demon shadow monster"
"argh i am the evil shadow monster demon shadow"
Vip is pronounced "Beep"
nostalgic realtime nitroid let's play playlist
User avatar
raocow
the death of the incredible huge
Posts: 4075
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: maybe the Wizards are the most complex, and the sales guys are up their daily
https://raocow.talkhaus.com/

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by raocow »

It's better than now.

If anything, we can go all smwcp and have a mod mess up all the levels after the facts.
the chillaxest of dragonsImage
Image
Image
User avatar
Mandew
d'yo
Posts: 529
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Marc
Pronouns: a person
Location: canada
https://fishingseasontraversal.talkhaus.com/

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by Mandew »

Exactly what the prof said. The standards for the levels are a bit intimidating, yes, but the lack of strict deadlines make people hang on to their levels forever, without showing progress or at least giving up on their level.

You know, if someone gave up on his level, it would give someone else the opportunity to make one.

The problem is that all the level slots are filled and yet most of them are on an eternal standby.

If we freed some level slots, there would probably be more eager level designers that would embark in the project.
Image
video games
User avatar
ProfessorDemetri
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: BC, Canada

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by ProfessorDemetri »

;) It will help, because then we'll get people that are dedicated, making levels. Period.
Image
Image
If you need help with anything, contact me on my skype: Demekun
User avatar
Mandew
d'yo
Posts: 529
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Marc
Pronouns: a person
Location: canada
https://fishingseasontraversal.talkhaus.com/

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by Mandew »

One more thing.

I must admit that I was contemplating joining the project as a level designer too, but the amount of people joining was overwhelming and I was indeed intimidated by the standards.
Image
video games
User avatar
AUS
Toni#4796
Posts: 483
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Toni
Pronouns: they/them/their
Location: アース

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by AUS »

but the amount of people joining was overwhelming
Why was that worrying you? :o
Image
"oh no my best friend was replaced by a evil demon shadow monster"
"argh i am the evil shadow monster demon shadow"
Vip is pronounced "Beep"
nostalgic realtime nitroid let's play playlist
User avatar
ProfessorDemetri
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: BC, Canada

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by ProfessorDemetri »

I'll admit the same thing.
It's only my ego and my stubbornness that made me do it lol

And AUS. I mean, look at who's here? Most of the people that are big names in SMW hacking. Like YCZ, chdata, other people, SNN from SMWC, and then there's the art department lol, and then there's raocow, big name in LPing SMW hacks.

It's alot to live up to make a level that's up to those standards. When you put the bar up so high, some people walk away even from looking at it. Me? I BASH THROUGH A WALL HEAD FIRST!! *ROAR!!* lol
Image
Image
If you need help with anything, contact me on my skype: Demekun
limepie20
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Doesn't Matter

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by limepie20 »

I haven't been making any deadlines because there's no one on the reserve list waiting for a level. I burned through the whole reserve list and over with two deadlines. Now, there's no reserve list. I think more people should know about a2mt because I bet I could go to the level list and take away at least three levels without warning or asking them without them noticing or caring. Then there would be open levels with no reserve list. And that's just the people I know won't make a level.
User avatar
flameofdoubt
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Britain

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by flameofdoubt »

I don't think that the problem is too high level quality standards; Of all the levels that have gotten as far as being cleared, only 2 or 3 out of the 10-15 have really been rejected. There is some quality control going on in the Testing thread, but the testing thread doesn't get a large portion of the people with levels responding. Those that have put in the work and have finished and tweaked their levels have almost all been cleared.
I think the problem is probably more that a lot of people haven't been working on levels, either because they haven't had to, haven't had the motivation, or the inspiration, or maybe just the time. If there are still plenty of people wanting to make a level, we should just keep deadlines strict and roll people around until we get enough people with enough drive to finish in time.
I've personally been avoiding making a level myself for lack of inspiration and time; I'm not sure I could work enough or often enough on it around my schedule.

On the subject of gimmicks, I know I push those a lot, but that's really just because it makes it easier to put together a variety of consistent areas to make up the level, as there's already a theme. If someone can make a vanilla level with really interesting gameplay, or one that looks cool, I've no problem with there being no gimmick. The problem is that generally when people don't use some gimmick or idea or trick or theme...their vanilla levels tend to be not that strong, which is why I push for people to think up something for their level to be about.

EDIT: About what limepie said: lack of interest is a definite problem. If we don't have enough people trying then we're not terribly likely to get people who do a good job. We don't necessarily need to raise awareness, just get the people we have more interested in making levels.
Pixie casts Dekunda. Insufficient MP!
User avatar
Mandew
d'yo
Posts: 529
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Marc
Pronouns: a person
Location: canada
https://fishingseasontraversal.talkhaus.com/

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by Mandew »

I think more people are hesitant of signing themselves up on the reserve list than they should be, and that might be because they would prefer to just sign up once a level spot is open, maybe because they don't want to check the talkhaus so often to see if they have a spot or not. I guess these people might be waiting for an announcement that some levels are open.

It would be good if we put emphasis on the importance of the reserve list.
Image
video games
User avatar
AUS
Toni#4796
Posts: 483
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Toni
Pronouns: they/them/their
Location: アース

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by AUS »

ProfessorDemetri wrote:Also the gimmick per level thing, I think, is just hindering the progress. Upon taking my second level, I was hard pressed to find a gimmick.
I agree that it may be hindering the progress but I don't think it should be changed.

About coming up with a gimmick, we could have a thread where basically people just post ideas for level gimmicks and other people take them and use them. Would that help?
Image
"oh no my best friend was replaced by a evil demon shadow monster"
"argh i am the evil shadow monster demon shadow"
Vip is pronounced "Beep"
nostalgic realtime nitroid let's play playlist
User avatar
ProfessorDemetri
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: BC, Canada

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by ProfessorDemetri »

Mandew: If people aren't willing to check the talkhaus, and communicate with the rest of us, then those type of people are the people that will drop out because "it's too hard", or "I don't have time". Easy outs are what's killing the progression.

Lime: I shouldn't just be you though. It's cool that you've been looking after the reserve list, but look after the people that are hacking too. I don't know what you've been assigned as a mod of, or whatever, but if you're in charge of deadlines, start kickin' ass and takin' names lol. :lol:

FoD: Fair enough. Thanks for clearing this up. I thought it was pretty much mandatory for a gimmick. My bad. And also, you're online now, you obviously have time to work on your level bro lol :P

AUS: You can have a fun level without a gimmick, that's my point. Case in point, my second level lol.
Image
Image
If you need help with anything, contact me on my skype: Demekun
User avatar
AUS
Toni#4796
Posts: 483
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Toni
Pronouns: they/them/their
Location: アース

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by AUS »

ProfessorDemetri wrote:AUS: You can have a fun level without a gimmick, that's my point. Case in point, my second level lol.
Um, okay? I see your point, but what you said is that you had a hard time finding a gimmick right? Well, we can help, you know. :P
Image
"oh no my best friend was replaced by a evil demon shadow monster"
"argh i am the evil shadow monster demon shadow"
Vip is pronounced "Beep"
nostalgic realtime nitroid let's play playlist
User avatar
ProfessorDemetri
Posts: 0
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: BC, Canada

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by ProfessorDemetri »

Fair enough. So we're both right? lol *high five* :ugeek:
Image
Image
If you need help with anything, contact me on my skype: Demekun
User avatar
AUS
Toni#4796
Posts: 483
Joined: 14 years ago
First name: Toni
Pronouns: they/them/their
Location: アース

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by AUS »

Sure. I'm just throwing the idea around. :lol:
Image
"oh no my best friend was replaced by a evil demon shadow monster"
"argh i am the evil shadow monster demon shadow"
Vip is pronounced "Beep"
nostalgic realtime nitroid let's play playlist
kil3
Posts: 0
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: A2MT Progression?

Post by kil3 »

I'm too lazy to read the thread so sorry if similar ideas have already been voiced.

1) Scope reduction. Just because LM allows for like 80+ overworld levels doesn't mean you have to use them all in a hack. You could have a 40 level hack to be more in line with how many people are submitting.

2) Recruit people from SMWC. There's some good level designers on SMWC, and random people off of youtube are notoriously unreliable and sometimes under the age of 10. Sorry Image

3) Deadlines + multi tiered submissions. Let's say you take more than a month to submit a level. Having missed the deadline, your spot moves down a tier and becomes "open" and anyone can then go and make a level for that spot. The original person can still finish and submit their level, but if someone does it first, tough. They can always try and finish their level and sign it up in a different level slot. Either way... if you can't make one level per year, what kind of treatment do you expect?

4) Let people take another level if they finish the ones they've already claimed. 5 levels by the same guy is better than no hack.

5) raocow's involvement was fine. Image
Locked