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a2mt: where are we at?

we don't need no edu - I mean, these threads, anymore.
limepie20
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by limepie20 »

I don't really like the idea because it doesn't make much sense and isn't much of a joke either if its hard. I think it would overall work if it was the parrot.

Also, the way I see it, not much is too silly for A2MT.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by AUS »

limepie20 wrote:isn't much of a joke either if its hard.
But it isn't hard. You just have to touch it and collect it like every other dragon cion. ;)
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by limepie20 »

Oh I didn't see that part. It could work but I like the idea of fighting the parrot itself better.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by Cup »

That should really be left up to the guys in the plot thread. People didn't respond well at all to Black Plague. Whatever is decided on for this final hard to unlock level should be plot related, but with new, not necessarily main story line information.

The game Illusion of Gaia did almost exactly what we are planning and did it very, very well. We should use its success as out template.

Throughout the game you find red gems (parrot coins). You give these gems to a mysterious jeweler named Jem (Parrot) throughout the game for unlockables and new abilities (Parrot levels). If you collect every single red gem in the game Jem takes you to a secret level that cannot be reached otherwise. Jem himself is the boss of that level and it turns out he was running and organizing the slave trade that you encounter multiple times throughout the game, but never learned much about during the main plot.

In my opinion, it cannot be handled any better. It's perfect. The game rewards you with new semi important information tying up a dangling loose end and even throws in an easter egg reference to the first game, Soul Blazer. The fight itself isn't quite as hard as the final boss, but pretty close, which is definitely an important part of the fun.
For a2mt, it would need some creativity since there is already a pretty big twist with the Artist and not much room for a branching plot of any kind, but it should definitely be aimed at whatever sort of plot holes there might be, and reward the player with that information. It seems like the Artist has some motivation and dislike for the Master. The way I feel this sort of level should be handled would be to have a complete wrap up after defeating the Artist that is entirely self contained and everything you encounter in the "final level" is bonus information that teaches you more about how the Master might not be such a nice guy after all. This could be accomplished by the Parrot saying a few lines before you fight him if that's who the plot guys feel should be the boss. Or maybe you fight the Master himself. Who knows, plot needs to get more defined first. It should be a battle worthy of being an unlockable last stage though, extremely challenging and rewards the player with new information about the ASMT world.

I may repost this later in the plot thread when it becomes more relevant, but it might be smart for management to reserve a level for the this case so it can be made specifically to fit the circumstance.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by AUS »

Cup wrote:In my opinion, it cannot be handled any better. It's perfect.
Except that it's directly ripping off another game, of course.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by raocow »

YOU MEAN UNLOCKING A FINAL THING AFTER GETTING ALL OF A THING ISN'T SOMETHING NEW?!?!?!?!?!!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!!?!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!??!??!?!!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!#yh4qerfb
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by Cup »

We're already planning to do exactly what it already did AUS. The only new information I gave was about that fact it rewarded you with plot information instead of a joke boss. So yes, they did it first. But Illusion of Gaia ripped off countless games before it, and those games ripped off movies, and books. All movies and games have ever done is tell the same few base stories with a new coat of paint. There are very few truly original ideas floating about out there, and if we do come up with one, chances are it will be worth millions.

Nothing we're doing in this game is truly original. We should just do what makes the game the most fun.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by AUS »

Cup stop depressing me. There are too original ideas out there. :P
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by rubberfishy »

it's unoriginal to be original
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by Paralars »

I'm not quite sure wether that final bonus level should really be related to the main plot, meh~
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by Cup »

It certainly doesn't have to be, but by answering questions the main plot doesn't, the level does give a very strong reward. Even if you don't like plot in these kind of games, it makes it feel somewhat related to what the players been doing the whole time, even if it's a just a subconscious thing.

There's strong likely hood that after collecting EVERY SINGLE dragon coin in the game, the player will have a reaction of, "that was it?" after playing a level with a joke boss. It the reward is not worth the effort. So the more rewarding the level is the more fullilment the player will get out of it. That can be done a number of way though, minor relation to the plot is just one example.

After getting the story actually written is when we'd want to look at this though. After any cutscenes/plot textboxes etc are all finished. After all that, we'll just look for any part of the story that could be better explained or built upon and turn that into a few lines of text before the boss fight(it doesn't need to be more than a line really, Illusion of Gaia did it all in maybe two sentences). It should make it a very fun experience for the player. But I don't think we can make any sort of call until we have more pieces on the board. This is just brainstorming. I'd probably argue for something like this when the time comes though.

And AUS, don't get depressed! Even though we're using a common formula, we're creating something new out of it! Evolving and changing ideas to fit our use. Even though it's not entirely original, it's still pretty neat. Being influenced by stuff is generally pretty helpful.

Example: aka spelling it out:

-Using the basic formula that IoG/countless other games used with our own ideas=Good/Not ripping anyone off

-Using rubys instead of red gems and having the Parrot run a slave trade ring=Bad/ripping off IoG
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by kilon »

Paralars wrote:I'm not quite sure wether that final bonus level should really be related to the main plot, meh~
No. It is not related in the slightest. We could make it look like it is, to keep people interested, but it would just be confusing to add a non-important npc from asmt and say 'hey, you are part of the bad guys'.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by Cup »

But we're already making the parrot quite important. Aside from Demo, it probably has the biggest role in the game, and the player will spend huge amounts of time interacting with it. I mean, its face is plastered on the Cotopaxi Parrot coins in every level for pete's sake. IF you choose to make the parrot the boss of that level, like Jem was in IoG (not saying that's the way to go at all), it would tie things up quite nicely if the parrot had a plot related reason for interacting with you so much throughout the game. And now he's fighting you because of it. That's all I'm suggesting. It would only take half a textbox during the boss fight if you do it right, but make such a huge impact on the player's feeling of reward, even if he's not explicitly aware of it.

But I'm not even saying use the parrot. I said find where there are plot holes based on what the player learns from the text throughout the game, and use whatever is the most interesting loose end as the basis of this stage. But we can't determine that until the text is written.

This way the player will beat the game feeling completely satisfied, "story's done let's go home, but what was that last item the parrot is selling? I have enough to buy it now, let's go check it out. Ah, it's an another level. Wait a sec, what did that say? Oh, so that's what that was! It makes sense now. Let's kick this guys ass."

S'all I'm trying to get at here.

Parrot's definitely not a non-important npc anymore though, it wouldn't feel odd at all to have it be a somewhat important boss.

(random idea to maybe possibly think about someday:) I was thinking third party IF we use the parrot anyway. Weren't there some talks about making the Master the final boss if there is an A3MT? The parrot could have been doing something shady for the Master like spying on Demo or gathering information about the sisters. Nothing major, just a little something to make demo question the benevolence of her Master that can be further explored in the next game. I was under the impression that the Artist would be saying something along those lines too, so this level would just be another piece of the puzzle (or again, the boss could just be the Master himself since the Artist already lays the groundwork). But can't really come up with relevant ideas until the plot gets further along.

A completely random level or joke ending would be a bad idea though, for reasons I already mentioned. Unless someone makes a very strong case for one of those two ideas (again remember how poorly black plague was received), then taking the Illusion of Gaia approach seems like the only working option at the moment.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by rubberfishy »

How about this? if collecting all the parrot coins simply unlocks a boss rush.
all the game's bosses again back to back.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by kilon »

I don't think we should do yet another boss rush. I never saw the fun in replaying bosses in general.
And with the current plot, it wouldn't make any sense either
Yeah, gameplay is more important than plot bla bla bla. Well, in this case it isn't. The bosses are 100% plot related and you can't just re-use them.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by limepie20 »

I kinda fully agree with Cup.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by rubberfishy »

kilon wrote:I don't think we should do yet another boss rush. I never saw the fun in replaying bosses in general.
And with the current plot, it wouldn't make any sense either
Yeah, gameplay is more important than plot bla bla bla. Well, in this case it isn't. The bosses are 100% plot related and you can't just re-use them.
no, I don't mean make new bosses. I just mean get all the old old bosses and put them back to back.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by kilon »

old old as in asmt old? no.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by VideoGuy »

I'm getting a bit confused by reading through this.

Is there a difference betwee the Artist and the Master? In which case who is the Master?

I thought the Artist/Master was going to be the final (as in King Charles-type final) boss of this game?

And if you're looking to justify a boss rush, just say the Artist redrew them or something. But that's only if you thought it was worth doing in the first place.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by limepie20 »

Isn't the master the guy from asmt? And I'm pretty sure the artist was supposed to be final level bowser type boss.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by kilon »

Master: The employer of Demo. He/She (sex unknown) send Demo out for groceries

Artist: The creator of Demo.
And final boss
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by Chdata »

The Artist is the finalboss but the parrot may appear as a joke boss later.
I kinda like the humanoid parrot coin idea, I kinda imagine some majora's mask like thing that shoots alot of different projectiles at once that only has to be collected to be destroyed.
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by xjC0n »

Just got this idea while reading:
1. Plot-stuff
2. Parrot-joke boss
3. Credits? Really?
4. Nope, more plot-stuff
5. Surprise real final boss
This way there's a humorous and a satisfying ending, I think. Although it has to be handled well and not be too "out-of-nowhere" to work..
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by Paralars »

xjC0n wrote:Just got this idea while reading:
1. Plot-stuff
2. Parrot-joke boss
3. Credits? Really?
4. Nope, more plot-stuff
5. Surprise real final boss
This way there's a humorous and a satisfying ending, I think. Although it has to be handled well and not be too "out-of-nowhere" to work..
this is a good idea.
Personally, I don't think a humanoid coin or whatever would be funny or good.
btw, did we stop using spoilers for plot-related things? :?
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Re: a2mt: where are we at?

Post by kilon »

Paralars wrote:btw, did we stop using spoilers for plot-related things? :?
Partially. I try to keep things spoilered, but I don't always know what is in the 'spoiler zone' and what is not
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