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here's a good place for FRIENDLY, ENJOYABLE, and otherwise very GENERAL discussion!
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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby raekuul » 3 years ago

It doesn't help that in parts of Japan the Age of Consent is as low as 13.

Immoral, yes, but not (yet) illegal.

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby onpon4 » 3 years ago

I'm not familiar with this specific example, but sexual attraction to 13-year-old girls is not pedophilia as a general rule. Pedophilia is sexual attraction to prepubescent girls or boys. The standard cutoff age is 13 (i.e. sexual attraction to children under 13 is considered to be pedophilia), though in practice it can vary in either direction. For girls who are not intensely physically active or nutritionally deficient, it's quite uncommon to still be prepubescent at 13.

EDIT: Also, and this might seem pedantic, but pedophilia is not illegal anywhere (and that's a good thing, too, because that would be thoughtcrime). Acting on pedophilia is, but only by proxy through age of consent and child pornography laws.

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Jesuiscontent » 3 years ago

Leet wrote:post
Even assuming your bogus comparisons hold any water, I don't see how that is a problem because it's FICTION. Anime and anime characters don't exist. If young children can't distinguish fiction from reality, that's the role of their parents and their education to correct this. Japan is also one of the countries with the lowest sexual crimes rates.
Hmm, all this exploitation of youth sexuality is pretty popular. And thus, Fire Emblem gives you the ability to pet your little sister.
Are you serious?

My younger sister loves modern Fire emblem and couldn't shut up about how adorable the petting minigame is in Fates. BRB calling 911. nyoro~n


I mean, I don't even like Awakening and Fates as games because except Fates!Conquest, the gameplay and maps are shit compared to older FEs, but I completely understand why they exist and why some people like them, and your conclusion just baffles me.
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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby raekuul » 3 years ago

onpon4 wrote:I'm not familiar with this specific example, but sexual attraction to 13-year-old girls is not pedophilia as a general rule. Pedophilia is sexual attraction to prepubescent girls or boys. The standard cutoff age is 13 (i.e. sexual attraction to children under 13 is considered to be pedophilia), though in practice it can vary in either direction. For girls who are not intensely physically active or nutritionally deficient, it's quite uncommon to still be prepubescent at 13.

EDIT: Also, and this might seem pedantic, but pedophilia is not illegal anywhere (and that's a good thing, too, because that would be thoughtcrime). Acting on pedophilia is, but only by proxy through age of consent and child pornography laws.
And if you say that on tumblr you'll get lynched from here to Pluto.

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Zha Hong Lang » 3 years ago

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Ometeotl » 3 years ago

Leet wrote:I rarely watch new anime ever
Well it's a good thing we have such an expert here to lecture us on an entire country's artistic output and set us straight.

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Leet » 3 years ago

Jesuiscontent wrote:Even assuming your bogus comparisons hold any water, I don't see how that is a problem because it's FICTION. Anime and anime characters don't exist.
I spent a large portion of my post outlining the connections between the real-world idol industry (and its exploitation of actual girls as young as 13) and how it was very closely linked to the modern anime industry for $$$ reasons. I named specific organizations that were heavily influential in the training upcoming animators and the high-ranking position of a man who has written sexually explicit songs for the intention of very young girls to perform. These are real people. Furthermore, this has been heavily criticized within Japan for these very same reasons; see the masterpiece Perfect Blue. For a more anime-specific-criticism example, see Yuri Kuma Arashi, which focuses on the non-committed lesbian imagery which exists in a "predator or mascot" dichotomy in anime works (and idol works).

Seriously, talking about real people was at least half of my post. Please, you can read better than this.

There's a lot to be said about how justifying fictional pedophilia just because it's not As Bad As Rape is pretty skeevy, too, but I don't even care about that right now when I've already mentioned more pressing points. (There's also the problem of marketing a show to both pedophiles and young girls at the same time.)

EDIT: Oh, but I do not judge anybody for just enjoying a new Fire Emblem game. They can still be fun for whatever reason. Social critique falls upon the system more than the individual, so there's no need to take it personally or try and justify something that's being criticized. We can all enjoy things, even arguably creepy things. It's just good to keep an analytical mind.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Alice » 3 years ago

raekuul wrote:It doesn't help that in parts of Japan the Age of Consent is as low as 13.

Immoral, yes, but not (yet) illegal.
This isn't actually entirely correct. I forget the exact details off the top of my head but I was reading a discussion on that exact subject awhile back on another forum. Iirc Japan has a federal age of consent of 13 but that's just a minimum age. Prefectures are free to declare their own age of consent as long as it's no lower than 13 and as far as I remember they're all in the 16-18 range.

Edit:
Wikipedia wrote:The Japanese Penal Code sets a minimal age of consent of 13.[44] However, the Children Welfare Act chapter 34 forbids any act of "fornication" (淫行) with children (here defined as anyone under 18 years of age)[45] with prefectures and districts specifying further details in (largely similar) "obscenity ordinances" (淫行条例) like adding exemptions for sex in the context of a sincere romantic relationship (typically determined by parental approval).[46] Various sources including police,official and adult related service providers cite that the actual age of consent in Japan is 18 as special laws and new laws precede old and general laws.

The age of marriage was 16 for girls and 18 for boys with parental consent in the past but is now 17 for both genders.
Jesuiscontent wrote:Even assuming your bogus comparisons hold any water, I don't see how that is a problem because it's FICTION. Anime and anime characters don't exist. If young children can't distinguish fiction from reality, that's the role of their parents and their education to correct this. Japan is also one of the countries with the lowest sexual crimes rates.
A weird amount of people who make claims like that seem to be physically incapable of actually making a distinction between fictional things and reality. Ie: On the main forum I frequent anytime a discussion like this comes up, anything related to lolicon is instantly just as bad as actual pedophilia despite, you know, the fact that the lolicon crap doesn't actually harm real children.
I mean, I don't even like Awakening and Fates as games because except Fates!Conquest, the gameplay and maps are shit compared to older FEs, but I completely understand why they exist and why some people like them, and your conclusion just baffles me.
People tend to jump to the worst possible conclusion for something if they find it distasteful. I don't like X so anyone who does like X has to like it for awful reasons and thus is a terrible person.

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby onpon4 » 3 years ago

raekuul wrote:
onpon4 wrote:I'm not familiar with this specific example, but sexual attraction to 13-year-old girls is not pedophilia as a general rule. Pedophilia is sexual attraction to prepubescent girls or boys. The standard cutoff age is 13 (i.e. sexual attraction to children under 13 is considered to be pedophilia), though in practice it can vary in either direction. For girls who are not intensely physically active or nutritionally deficient, it's quite uncommon to still be prepubescent at 13.

EDIT: Also, and this might seem pedantic, but pedophilia is not illegal anywhere (and that's a good thing, too, because that would be thoughtcrime). Acting on pedophilia is, but only by proxy through age of consent and child pornography laws.
And if you say that on tumblr you'll get lynched from here to Pluto.
Probably, but people who make that their residence would lynch me for all sorts of things. I don't have a use for Tumblr, anyway; it doesn't work at all without JavaScript (one of those shim-HTML sites).

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Leet » 3 years ago

Alice, please do not continue to imply that I did not go to great lengths to describe a link between different facets of society. I know you are talking about "people" and "a person" here, but I still feel it is willfully rude/pointless to continue to support the brushing off of anything that I actually said.

If all anyone can engage with is their expectations for what others are saying, then it becomes painfully obvious that proper analysis/criticism is impossible. In the real world, opinions don't live within a duality. (Not that opinions are even my focus here.)

Especially because my main conceit is "petting your little sister in Fire Emblem is included to maximize profit based on popular anime", which is almost objectively true; the alternative is it was an artistic decision made out of creativity and imagination. I hope nobody really thinks that.

As an aside, even though we all know that fictional pedophilia isn't the same as actual rape or anything, it's still pretty skeevy. Just because it's not as bad doesn't mean it's innocent and pure. This is another concept that does not exist within a duality in the real world, as nothing exists in a vacuum; all life is connected. I may not try to arrest somebody who hardcore fetishizes anime children, but I also wouldn't want them around any hypothetical children of my own.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Learning-Timebuster » 3 years ago

not that i really have anything to add because i think leet has said everything that needed to be said, but yeah, i agree with her on all accounts here, and seeing how the things shes saying here are met with this kind of opposition really makes me want to leave this community behind even moreso than i already wanted to
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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Alice » 3 years ago

Leet wrote:Alice, please do not continue to imply that I did not go to great lengths to describe a link between different facets of society. I know you are talking about "people" and "a person" here, but I still feel it is willfully rude/pointless to continue to support the brushing off of anything that I actually said.

If all anyone can engage with is their expectations for what others are saying, then it becomes painfully obvious that proper analysis/criticism is impossible. In the real world, opinions don't live within a duality. (Not that opinions are even my focus here.)
I brushed off what you said because it's pretty much completely irrelevant. It boils down to this: Is enjoying something fictional that others find distasteful inherently immoral when it's not harming anybody? If not then it's not an issue. Getting worked up over those things would be a lot more productive if they were directed towards a legitimate source of danger for children instead.
Especially because my main conceit is "petting your little sister in Fire Emblem is included to maximize profit based on popular anime", which is almost objectively true; the alternative is it was an artistic decision made out of creativity and imagination. I hope nobody really thinks that.
This shows a fairly poor understanding of business. The most likely way this got added was more like this: Someone actually working on the game came up with the idea and thought it would appeal to the fanbase so they suggested it. The business people in charge would have been the ones who went "yeah, that sounds like a good way to make more money". Either way though simply trying to make more money isn't the issue you brought up to begin with. Your view of it is something sexualized. As Jesuiscontent pointed out that's simply not the case 100% of the time. And even if it was it's something completely fictional so who honestly cares? If it's not harming real people then it's simply a matter of personal distaste. You know what I do with things I don't care for but which aren't harming someone? I actively avoid them rather than complaining about them and generalizing them.
As an aside, even though we all know that fictional pedophilia isn't the same as actual rape or anything, it's still pretty skeevy. Just because it's not as bad doesn't mean it's innocent and pure. This is another concept that does not exist within a duality in the real world, as nothing exists in a vacuum; all life is connected. I may not try to arrest somebody who hardcore fetishizes anime children, but I also wouldn't want them around any hypothetical children of my own.
Whether it's skeevy or not isn't relevant. Again, it's simply a matter of personal distaste if it's not harming anyone. I find lolicon shit to be quite distasteful myself. But it's not harming children and could potentially serves as an outlet for someone who has urges they have no control over (much like violent video games do to making gamers a fair bit less violent in general) so it's at worst a neutral thing.

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Leet » 3 years ago

Alice wrote:I brushed off what you said because it's pretty much completely irrelevant. It boils down to this: Is enjoying something fictional that others find distasteful inherently immoral when it's not harming anybody? If not then it's not an issue. Getting worked up over those things would be a lot more productive if they were directed towards a legitimate source of danger for children instead.
Except, you know, I spent a very long paragraph talking about the idol industry's role in this. As well as a subsequent paragraph explaining that the idol industry is about real people. This is just a stock response that completely ignores the fact that I've been talking about real, nonfictional children the whole time, and how their audience is becoming closely linked with the anime audience. Are you illiterate? When have I ever once focused on fiction alone? My whole point, the entire time, was to show how it interfaces with these physical world industries! I would never subsist an entire argument on "I don't like this thing" without taking immense care to explain exactly why I think it is a problem, which is exactly what I did, mentioning not only what I found skeevy but also specific names, figures and institutions connected to the exploitation of actual, real-world young girls, and why I thought that was connected to modern art trends in both fiction and real-world performance.

If you, as you seem to, (and this is a general you), know absolutely nothing about all of this, I don't need to hear placeholder westerner 4chan responses when I am talking about things that I have done research on by reading the observations of actual Japanese critics.
Last edited by Leet on 14 Aug 2016, 23:16, edited 3 times in total.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Bean » 3 years ago

I just stopped by to say I had a good last couple of days at work. That's the first time things have gone this well for me all summer there. Oh, and I think I made a Twitter promise that I'd play Pokémon depending on how this Kalos League thing goes for Ash in the anime.

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby spittySynthyHands » 3 years ago

Learning-Timebuster wrote:not that i really have anything to add because i think leet has said everything that needed to be said, but yeah, i agree with her on all accounts here, and seeing how the things shes saying here are met with this kind of opposition really makes me want to leave this community behind even moreso than i already wanted to
Keep in mind that a) A lot of people like anime here and b) leet's opening statement was "anime is now about pedophilia", without any explanation. For a similar reaction, you might as well go into a library and shout "Reading is for nerds!" at the top of your lungs.

I agree that theres a heck of lot skeevy stuff going on in the industry, but even then I wouldn't make blanket statements like "anime is produced for pedophiles", given the sheer volume of it thats made.

I'm not touching the "Its fictional, so its okay" vs "Even if its fictional, its harmful" debate.
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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Alice » 3 years ago

Leet wrote:Except, you know, I spent a very long paragraph talking about the idol industry's role in this. As well as a subsequent paragraph explaining that the idol industry is about real people. This is just a stock response that completely ignores the fact that I've been talking about real, nonfictional children the whole time, and how their audience is becoming closely linked with the anime audience.

Are you illiterate? When have I ever once focused on fiction alone? My whole point, the entire time, was to show how it interfaces with these physical world industries!
You're completely missing the point. The point is that fictional things are irrelevant. If you're worried about children being exploited in any way then focus on real children being exploited. It's really weird to focus on the least relevant part of an issue.
Are you illiterate?
If you, as you seem to, (and this is a general you), know absolutely nothing about all of this, I don't need to hear placeholder westerner 4chan responses when I am talking about things that I have done research on by reading the observations of actual Japanese critics.
Nice job resorting to trying to insult me and imply I'm stupid, lol. (For the record I dislike 4chan, just like I do Reddit. Both sites have far too many totally toxic people on top of having obnoxious usability issues.)

If we're resorting to stuff like that:
I would never subsist an entire argument on "I don't like this thing" without taking immense care to explain exactly why I think it is a problem, which is exactly what I did, mentioning not only what I found skeevy but also specific names, figures and institutions connected to the exploitation of actual, real-world young girls, and why I thought that was connected to modern art trends in both fiction and real-world performance.
I could point out how this argument means literally nothing. If your argument itself is meaningless then it really doesn't matter if you took immense care to explain it. This isn't the first time I've argued with you over something you personally didn't like which you took a lot of care to explain your views on and which we still disagreed because your arguments didn't hold much water. You did the same thing right after you joined IsoNation to whine about how Aposke is allowed on the site despite the fact he's behaved himself pretty well over there. (And despite the fact IsoNation is not the talkhaus so personal disagreements such as those many here hold against Aposke are irrelevant to whether he's allowed there.)

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby TheFinalSentinel » 3 years ago

I'll just be playing Nekopara over in the corner here don'tmindme. Image
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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Mikkofier » 3 years ago

Sometimes I order stuff not just because I want something but partly because I want something to look forward to.
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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Ivy » 3 years ago

my favorite anime is jojo's bizarre adventure
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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby TaviTurnip » 3 years ago

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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby metasomnia? » 3 years ago

I've never sat down to watch any jojo

Although my roommate insisted on showing a clip of one of characters repeatedly doing silly raspberry things with his tongue :/
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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby TheFinalSentinel » 3 years ago

I'd personally like to compare Jojo to DBZ in that it's not really good perse, but it's incredibly fun to watch. But multiplied by at least 10 for how over-the-top it is.
Also, it's stylish as hell.

Having watched season 1 over the last couple weeks.
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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Jesuiscontent » 3 years ago

Leet wrote:
Alice wrote:I brushed off what you said because it's pretty much completely irrelevant. It boils down to this: Is enjoying something fictional that others find distasteful inherently immoral when it's not harming anybody? If not then it's not an issue. Getting worked up over those things would be a lot more productive if they were directed towards a legitimate source of danger for children instead.
Are you illiterate?
You used pedophilia, a very serious real-world issue, directly compared it to a entire fictional media genre, while also adding a stupid, innocuous minigame in a videogame in the mix. If you're going to backpedal, whatever I guess, but don't blame others and call them illiterate because you worded your post badly.
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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Ashan » 3 years ago

Prove you're not a pedophile by posting how few hours you have in Fire Emblem
Smallest number doesn't want to fuck little girls the most
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Re: Twitter Thread

Postby Leet » 3 years ago

Alice wrote:You did the same thing right after you joined IsoNation to whine about how Aposke is allowed on the site despite the fact he's behaved himself pretty well over there. (And despite the fact IsoNation is not the talkhaus so personal disagreements such as those many here hold against Aposke are irrelevant to whether he's allowed there.)
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

actually i joined because isocitration is my favorite LPer and i'm pretty sure i explained circumstances about that to you about 3 times now and you went "oh okay" every single time, but i guess ill go kill myself or whatever. i didn't know you hated me personally enough to bring up irrelevant 2-year-old bullshit. i don't even know you
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.


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