Good Gender Vibes

[Alice]

i was avoiding clarifying that i was trans on here for a long time due to how badly everyone handles this kind of thing, but now that there is a Specific Thread for it thats intended to be good i can just say that, yep, thats the deal

I've mostly avoided it too simply out of a desire to want to avoid a lot of the bullshit I've seen. That and on the main forum I frequent I'm open about it and seeing as it's a massive forum there's no way to avoid people who are complete assholes about it for no legitimate reason. Though I also haven't exactly kept it a secret either and there's several people here who already knew I was transgender.

[BlueWizrobe]

I have believed I am trans for a while but I cant bring myself to come out to anyone currently in my life. My life is comfortable (y'know besides pretending to be cisgender) so I don't want anything to potentially ruin that. I've considered testing the waters and coming out to my best friend considering he's dealt with this with a few of his other friends but I'm also a massive wimp.

[LiAS]

By all accounts, I'm male, cis. However... I'm not exactly what one would call "loyal" to my gender... or any, really. I'm... honestly rather confused about it all. I have male tendencies, but I have a lot of female ones, as well, and sometimes they're far stronger than the male ones. Very few stereotypically "male" activities and interests appeal to me at all.
Basically, I feel like I straddle the line somewhere between male and female. I identify as male, but it's more for convenience than because I care one way or another.

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one! I, however, keep flip-flopping back and forth. As long as I "like" someone, I don't care what their gender is.

[Arctangent]

A bit of a bump, but I think actually throwing this out here will help me come out to more people ( strange how it's easier to come out to complete strangers than someone you know, isn't it? ) I'm a transgirl, but I prefer to just be recognized as a girl; in fact, aside from a few friends I've come out to directly, I've otherwise not come out to anywhere else. Mostly because I feel like anyone has a say in anything, and a bad opinion is going to be bad no matter who it's coming from, and prefacing every statement with "I'm trans" seems to undermine that to me. Plus, hey, if I transition well enough it's not like not being known as a transgirl over just a girl will really matter that much.

Also, this is kind of debate-y but I want to see other people's viewpoint on this, so I'll spoil it for those who want to tempt it.

I can never really understand how people can say you can be trans without dysphoria, because that's sort of the entire definition of it in a way. Dysphoria comes in a whole bunch of ways - mine's pretty intense at times, but otherwise completely unnoticeable - so I can kind of understand mistaking a constantly light dysphoria for having none, especially when combined with doubts - believe me, I get those all the time. Another thing I think might be the cause of that is the assumption that non-binary = trans, when really they're entirely unrelated.

To put it a certain way, imagine one of those peg-and-hole toys where the square's apothem and the circle's radius are the same, so you can in fact put the circular peg in the square hole, and also there's a peg that's half-circle, half-square. A binary cis person would be a square peg in a square hole or circle peg in a circle hole, a perfect or otherwise almost perfect fit. A non-binary cis person would be either a circular peg or a half-circle half-square in a square peg; sure, it's not a perfect fit, but the peg still goes in perfectly fine. A trans person, whether they be binary or not, would be a square peg or a half-square half-circle trying to fit into a circle hole. They may partially fit, but the rest of them doesn't or just plain none of them does. That's the entire reason one would want hormone treatment and sexual reassignment surgery; the disconnect between their gender and their sex, regardless of which either is, is too much for them to handle so they'd rather go such financial and potentially physical strain over just staying with their current body, just so their peg can fit comfortably into their hole, or at least as comfortably as current medical science allows.

So that's just sort of why I don't understand the whole "trans without dysphoria" thing; it's like saying something's water when it contains neither oxygen or hydrogen. I'm perfectly fine with people exploring their gender, but that's just something I can never figure out and really imagine came out of Tumblr's fetishization of trans people or something similar. Either that, or some outdated defintion that lumped all imperfect gender-to-sex connections under and so being overly technical means that being non-binary does mean your trans even if you're not transgender? I dunno that seems like a dichotomy that would be instantly abandoned by the people who use the term regularly because that's just kind of confusing, especially since non-binary fits that so much better.

I mean I guess if you did get sexually reassigned while having a gender that's fine with either sex then the dysphoria definition would be a bit iffy, but then you were really never transgender and merely liked a specific sex more? I dunno, I don't really feel like that's trans, more being cis with either sex. While successful trans people tend to become cis anyway, I still feel like that's something entirely different.

... and yes, I did spend more time on this part than the entire rest of the post. I dunno, this just has been something bugging me for a long time.

[Learning-Timebuster]

you can see transitioning kind of like wanting to increase your life experience for the better. dysphoria is a good reason to do so, but even if you dont have that going on it can still be beneficial to you. imagine how you may have a preference for, say, dogs over cats. this does not mean that you actively despise cats, even if thats still possible, but you would rather have dogs, so logically speaking youd go for dogs. the same is true for gender identity, at least, thats my perspective on it.

im not great at analogies

[Arctangent]

... To be honest, that flew directly over my head if that was directed at me; it really feels like you're talking about something else entirely, likely related but not what I'm thinking about in that word vomit at all. Maybe that's proof at what I was talking about with different vocabularites ( I didn't put it like that at all I don't think but the idea was still there ) where I use trans strictly for those who exhibit dysphoria and therefore need to physically transition to another sex to solve that, while others use it as another word for non-binary. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding that, too.

To emphasize why I have that definition, it's because the only real moral way to resolve a person's dysphoria ( sexual at least, but then again that's the most common one to come up when talking about trans people ) is that set of standardized procedures with the hormone treatment, sex reassignment surgery, etc. Thus it makes sense to me for there to be a specific term refering to someone who needs those procedures. Though maybe transgender etc. does refer to that specifically, while what's tripping me up is that trans for whatever reason isn't the shortened form of that, but rather something entirely different. English is weird, I wouldn't put that past it.

[Wolfolotl]

the whole dysphoria thing should be generally be seen as a side affect rather than a requirement, I feel. there are trans people that suffer from a ton of discomfort with their bodies and trans people who are trans because their gender feels better to them than a birth assignment that they felt pretty neutral on and trans people who fall anywhere in between. I myself am in between but more towards the second category; I still have some femme gender feelings though most are decidedly outside of the binary and, other than maybe top surgery when I get older, I'm p comfy with my bod
and on the topic of transgirl versus simply girl, in most trans spaces it's generally agreed upon that it's written with the trans as an adjective (trans girl) because that way it isn't implying an inherent difference between trans femininity and cis femininity. a girl's a girl, no matter what genitals she has!

[Arctangent]

I guess it's just something that just flat-out doesn't make sense to me but I just have to accept regardless. It just seems like that stuff falls under non-binary, not trans - you did flat-out say that most of your stuff is outside of the binary, after all.

I dunno.

On the whole trans girl vs girl thing, it's mostly because even in most trans-friendly ( not trans, trans-friendly ) communities that there's still a difference between those two even if they're both accepted, I feel. And there's the self-reflection aspect, too; even if I'm treated perfectly as my gender, there's still the fact that I'm know as imperfect ( my own words, not some I've heard tossed at me ) that really cheapens the whole thing. And it gives less fuel should a more toxic member of the community decide to direct their bile at me.

I guess I should note that my self-confidence isn't the highest, so being able to pass perfectly without shoving an asterisk after everything I do really helps.

[momo]

I guess I've been a little confused ever since customers would confuse me for a girl at work when I shaved, and when my parents told me I had a feminine haircut. I work(ed) at McDonald's in the drive-thru, so I used a higher-than-normal pitched voice when I was taking orders. Customers sometimes looked confused when they got to my window to pay.

After some thinking, I've come to the conclusion that I am androgynous. I think I'm actually slightly more feminine, so basically a tomboy?

[Arctangent]

... To tell the truth, I'm not sure if you're confusing gender for sex ( ... in a way? An androgynous guy doesn't stop being a guy sex-wise, but that's the only way I could figure out how to put it ) or if you just said that you're curious about your gender in a roundabout way. The way you put it really makes it seem like the former. For reference, just because someone doesn't look like their gender doesn't mean they're not that gender. Even if you do look feminine for a guy, if you still identify as guy then, well, you're a guy.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with not being certain about your gender and taking time to explore it, but the way you put that really seems like you're not really sure what you're talking about, to be honest.

guy really is a versatile word, considering I usually use it as gender neutral but I don't think I used it anywhere in this post in way that wasn't masculine

Edit: I don't mean to invalidate your thoughts, for reference. They way you wrote that post just makes me think you're new to the world of non-standard and unmatching genders, and thus are confusing some things for other things that are unrelated.

[Learning-Timebuster]

doesnt non-binary fall under trans most of the time (i say most of the time because i vaguely remember cis intersex people being a thing, dont take my word for it though)

[Arctangent]

For me, personally, it doesn't, because - under my definition, at least - you can have cis non-binaries, who are perfectly fine with their bodies, and trans non-binaries, who would need the same or similar procedures as trans binaries. I've known an agender ( ... I think that's the term? We haven't really talked about it in a while but I do know he desires a male body but is otherwise not really gendered ) person for a while who experiences dysphoria something fierce, and at the same time while I've not really known many of them personally I've seen plenty of other non-binaries who don't feel dysphoria.

I suppose the reason I'm so big on those definitions is because he was the first trans person I really sort of got to know personally, and thus the distinction was pretty much there from the start.

[momo]

Bleh never mind I don't care anymore.

[Learning-Timebuster]

i think youre going by cissexual and transsexual here instead of cisgender and transgender

[Arctangent]

Bleh never mind I don't care anymore.

I'm sorry if I came off as too stand-offish, I was just really confused by your post since I really didn't know what you were getting at.

Like I said, it's perfectly fine to question and explore your gender, I just wanted to make sure what you were saying because it really was plenty ambiguous, and I couldn't tell if you were basing that entirely on your body or if you are actually curious about your gender. No offense meant, sorry if I did though.

i think youre going by cissexual and transsexual here instead of cisgender and transgender

I question why those are two different things. I knew transsexual usually referred to people who have finished transition over transgender who haven't, but I didn't think they were entirely different things because that's ... honestly kind of dumb.

Especially since I prefer to avoid the -sexual terms because those can easily be misunderstood for refering to sexuality, not sex, considering hetero-, homo-, bi-, pan-, etc. sexual.

[Learning-Timebuster]

transgender is about identification, transsexual is about having transitioned through sex reassignment surgery. its very important to note that gender and sex are separate things and that transsexual isnt by definition a one-upped version of transgender

[Leet]

I think the word transsexual should stop being a thing in general cause there isnt really much need to use it + its misleading, as others have said

[Arctangent]

Oh, I'm fully aware of the difference between gender and sex. I suppose maybe what I'm not fully understanding is that identification isn't remotely standardized in the slightest, so identifying as trans is valid regardless of if you really have any reason to or not; although if that is actually the case, I hope it isn't too hard to understand why that seems kind of ... iffy, considering that actually getting treatment for transitioning isn't as easy as just requesting it.

I mean, I might just be worrying about hypotheticals, but they're hypotheticals that are really kind of frightening to me.

And yeah I agree with Leet. It really reeks of someone lumping two things together that aren't especially related; sure, trans people are included under the LGBT+ label, but gender and sexuality really are incredibly different things that aren't really related ( I'm both trans and gay, for example ) and the idea that they are is pretty outdated. The whole LGBT+ label works because we're still all groups that are heavily discriminated against for being non-standard, and thus it helps people find support and fight for their rights - even if the actual things that make us non-standard may not be 100% related.

[Whimsical Calamari]

idk if it's really my place to post about this? but

I guess I've been a little confused ever since customers would confuse me for a girl at work when I shaved, and when my parents told me I had a feminine haircut. I work(ed) at McDonald's in the drive-thru, so I used a higher-than-normal pitched voice when I was taking orders. Customers sometimes looked confused when they got to my window to pay.

After some thinking, I've come to the conclusion that I am androgynous. I think I'm actually slightly more feminine, so basically a tomboy?

Similar experience here. Long hair, somewhat higher than average voice at times, mistaken for a girl (and sometimes for my mom ) on many many occasions because of those traits and others. Personally over the past couple years I've been trying to get less uncomfortable with the fact that hey, I'm allowed to (and do) like things that aren't typically "masculine".

(thanks for those fears, middle school!)

As I understand it, the term "gender expression" probably applies here. The way it was explained to me is that, just like gender and sexuality don't have to correspond with physical sex or each other, neither does gender expression have to correspond with any of those three traits. How masculine, feminine, or androgynous you are doesn't need to have anything to do with whether you are a man, a woman, or nonbinary.

I hope that doesn't sound like i'm saying not to explore your gender if you're curious - if you want or need to do so, nobody should deny you that, nor should anyone deny you the word "tomboy" if you feel it accurately describes you. But hey, there's absolutely no problem if it's just that the traditional idea of "what your gender is supposed to look like" doesn't line up with how you want to look or express yourself. You do you.

also on the subject of "guy" i thought about it a bit and it seems like it's gender neutral only in the second person, like "you guys" or "what's up guys" or maybe raocow's "hey there guy". just talking about "a guy" or "guys" in general feels to me like it's explicitly masculine

[Arctangent]

also on the subject of "guy" i thought about it a bit and it seems like it's gender neutral only in the second person, like "you guys" or "what's up guys" or maybe raocow's "hey there guy". just talking about "a guy" or "guys" in general feels to me like it's explicitly masculine

probably more precise is that it's mostly gender neutral when plural, as in "those guys" works when referring to a group of women too while that's pretty third-person. It's definitely a bit more awkward to refer to a woman or non-binary as a "guy" in the third person singular than it is to call them, say, "dude" which works with pretty much everything in spite of the existent of "dudette". Though for some reason I want to think that there's some dialect that does in fact call everyone a "guy" no matter their gender, I guess that seems like some sort of deep south dialect that really would exist.

[momo]

oh my god stop using the tiny font my eyes hurt

[Wolfolotl]

to clear things up on the whole trans terminology thing: I generally define "transgender" as when the doctor says "it's a X" and you're like "that's incorrect", which, yes, does include nb peps
I dunno if you're mistaking "cis" for "Comfortable In Skin", a popular yet really incorrect definition generally spouted by bad cis allies. I sure as hecko don't know how someone can be cis yet nonbinary

[momo]

Basically I like to think of myself as androgynous, but I'm not about to go cut off my dick or anything.

[Arctangent]

I dunno if you're mistaking "cis" for "Comfortable In Skin"

I have honestly never even heard that before; it's always been my understanding that non-binary people could be cisgender because of how I had transgender defined.

Though I guess transgender must be an umbrella term in the end, which makes it pretty useless for identity purposes to be honest. I suppose I could call myself dysgender or something, but first I'd need to figure out a less dumb-sounding term that is also pretty unambiguous.

Basically I like to think of myself as androgynous, but I'm not about to go cut off my dick or anything.

I still am really confused at what you're trying to get at. I'm not sure if it's just the terms you're using or what.

[Octagon]

This post got eaten by the wannabe talkhaustrophe but I always back up effort posts like this.
(Arctangent had replied to it that we're talking at cross purposes due to different usage of the term "trans")

I think the word transsexual should stop being a thing in general cause there isnt really much need to use it + its misleading, as others have said

Yeah.
If someone feels like "people who medically transition" is a more important distinction than "people who don't fit into their assigned gender", it's okay.
But I see several reasons to find "transgender" a more useful category than "transsexual".
One, the standard discourse being about transsexuality normalizes an invasive curiosity about people's genitals.
How much people want to disclose about their body is their business.

Two, limited concessions to those trans people who don't defy the gender binary with their very existence are an excuse to keep throwing nonbinary people, people who don't pass, people who can't afford transition, and so on under the bus.
It's a convenient way to appear progressive without having to resolve much of your bigotry, while also pitting trans people against each other.
Regulations like making legal gender (which shouldn't be a thing in the first place) dependent on genitals are an example of this.

i think youre going by cissexual and transsexual here instead of cisgender and transgender

I question why those are two different things. I knew transsexual usually referred to people who have finished transition over transgender who haven't, but I didn't think they were entirely different things because that's ... honestly kind of dumb.

And three, assigned gender is a powerful system and rejecting it is kind of a big deal.
When people say it is "a social construct", that only means it's contextual to our society instead of an emergent property.

I've recently read a post that expands on what LearningTimebuster said with their dog metaphor (oh no tumblr): http://hobbitkaiju.tumblr.com/post/1142 ... d-pleasure
For your peg metaphor, you can imagine this as a triangular peg that also fits through a hole shaped like a six-sided star.

Oh, I'm fully aware of the difference between gender and sex. I suppose maybe what I'm not fully understanding is that identification isn't remotely standardized in the slightest, so identifying as trans is valid regardless of if you really have any reason to or not; although if that is actually the case, I hope it isn't too hard to understand why that seems kind of ... iffy, considering that actually getting treatment for transitioning isn't as easy as just requesting it.

Saying people "identify as trans without having a reason for it" is also kind of iffy. What makes you think "<Gender> feels better to me than my assigned gender" isn't a reason in and of itself?
Gatekeeping isn't the fault of people who "dilute what it means to be trans" or something. It is motivated by the assumption that physical transition is a last-resort measure, that trans people and bodies that don't fit in a binary model are abominations, and that people be discouraged from transitioning, in order to "save" them from becoming 'freakish outcasts'.
Cis people who want cosmetic surgery, hormone prescriptions etcetera don't have to endure waiting periods, "gotcha" questions and shaming to the same extent.

This got kinda long and argumentative and I hope it still makes sense

I sure as hecko don't know how someone can be cis yet nonbinary

From what I've seen that's mostly people who are still connected to their assigned gender but feel like it doesn't describe them entirely, who usually describe themselves as genderqueer or similar without also wanting to take up the trans label, as it can be a big, scary, very definitive thing for some.
Those people don't usually call themselves cis either though - once again a gap has appeared in binary terminology. Language and concepts are weird.