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The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

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ano0maly
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The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by ano0maly »

Aiming to be the new Most Useless Thread of the year, I present to you the discourse that has been running for the past 3 days, from the time an exasperated 11clock wished for a walk button (in lieu of a run button) while playing the Donkey Kong Country games.

It has then been suggested that this run button - really, any button expected to be held - should also be toggleable as an accessibility option, which led to the dispute of semantics...
  1. Accessibility is synonymous with QoL - BobisOnlyBob

    I don't quite agree. I see accessibility as a function that makes something about the game easier and its challenge more approachable. Examples are extra health, damage reduction, or slower speed for puzzle elements. These are designed to match different skill levels the player is willing and able to meet at that time.

    Quality of life settings, in this context, are just a matter of varying player preferences, not necessarily pertaining to easing the difficulty. Honestly "quality of life" is a broad term but what I'm referring to is options for things such as controller/keyboard button setups and how your input interacts with the game. Say, whether a flying level should use inverted up/down controls like some flight simulators or (as I prefer) just let up be up and down be down.

    Ability to choose between hold to run vs. hold to walk, I see it as QoL in this sense. I don't see it as "accessibility" because you're just trading one preference for another - one state is walk and another is run. It's just a configuration, not presented as lowering the extent of challenge. A walk button can be more convenient for you, great, but it's kind of like choosing to make B jump instead of A.

    More broadly on that point, I don't see accessibility as a synonym for options - by that logic, all the settings would be lumped into "Accessibility Menu" instead of calling it an Options Menu. This is my response to the following:
  2. (continued from above) All options can be called accessibility - KobaBeach

    Well, games just simply don't do that. This includes the many games that have a package of assist mode features. All assists are options - accessibility is a subtype of settings you can configure - but not all configuration options need to be presented as assists. Celeste is a salient example of a game that makes these distinctions: an Assist Mode section within the settings, alongside other options (both amusing Variants and more mundane settings), and separately a cheat code.
  3. Semantics don't matter - EllenHouraisan

    Semantics can be rather unimportant once the parties to the conversation agree on the terminology and what the actual topic is. But what we have here is a game trying to communicate its features to the players. As I've said in the shoutbox, you want to use words that best convey the meaning and intent to your audience. I'm not going to be looking for basic preference selections under the accessibility section; placing them where players would not expect means they would have trouble locating them.

    After all, these options are there to help the player experience, and a confusing menu design works against the purpose of being helpful.
  4. Accessibility should target genuine disability instead of using the label as an excuse to water down games for the sake of "bad players" - thatguyif

    I'm not going to get into this right now - I'll let you speak for yourself to elaborate. I do think thatguyif was trying to express a genuine thought here, but it did feel charged in its delivery and I just felt this risked escalating the argument in an ugly direction, derailing the talk.

    What I want to say is that while I agree with the user's initial thesis of "Instead of an accessibility option, how about just make it a QoL option?" I have different underlying substance to state from thatguyif's.

    Returning to the original assertion:
  5. Players should have a walk button instead of a run button - 11clock

    People in the discussion have vouched for an option to choose between walk button and run button, and indeed, it's a good idea! I've played other games where it can be switched between walk-default/run-default or have similar customization for things like attack with different weapons. Aforementioned Celeste did this with the grab button (used to climb walls): along with the hold-to-grab, it eventually added options for hold-to-let-go (AKA release-to-grab) and "tap to toggle between grab/let go".

    But I wonder how it would affect this particular game. In DKC, the run button is also the attack button (roll, pick up barrels), so such a change might mess up the game mechanics (there is a difference between rolling with run and rolling without). And, I can understand people finding a walk button easier to manage, but for the classic DKC and Mario games I just internalized that I should always be running unless I have a reason to let go of run/attack. This is how the game implemented this mechanic, so I just didn't mind holding run essentially all the time in order to do so. (Also keep in mind the older era of these games.) It's not like double-tap dash.
  6. DKC2 is the official talkhaus-certified best Donkey Kong Country game.
I reserve the right to mudsling ZUN while not sourcing anything and not taking any questions.
Last edited by ano0maly 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by KobaBeach »

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Re: The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by Grounder »

as someone who's played a lot of platformers and has recently been playing some rpgmaker games

running should just be default, toggelability be damned
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Re: The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by 11clock »

I don’t like that the attack button and the run button are mapped to the same button as well. In Mario it’s not a big deal since throwing a fireball doesn’t affect your momentum and it’s usually not detrimental to throw one, but in DKC your attack is a roll that pushes you forward. Also, sometimes (for some reason I haven’t really figured out) your momentum completely stops after the roll before the run kicks in, while other times your momentum is kept.

DKC games don’t use the triggers, so a run/walk button could’ve easily been moved to one of those buttons. (This would complicate things for the GBA ports, though.) DKC Returns fixes this by mapping roll to shaking the wiimote instead (of course this causes another issue), and in Tropical Freeze and Impossible Lair they made your movement speed tied to how far you tilt the analog stick.
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Re: The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by raekuul »

Grounder wrote: 1 year agorunning should just be default, toggelability be damned
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Re: The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by BobisOnlyBob »

Not all accessibility is about what's found in a specific accessibility menu or Assist Mode. For me, the FoV slider is an accessibility option: in many games without it, I cannot play due to severe motion sickness, and yet it's naturally found under video options, as it should be, alongside options like Motion Blur and Chromatic Aberration - the ability to turn those off can absolutely constitute accessibility. Under this understanding, an option in controls that lets you change button inputs between "hold" and "toggle", or invert their default behaviour ("hold to run" vs "hold to walk") belong under a Controls menu, not a specialist accessibility menu, and are an excellent quality of life option for all kinds of games. Accessibilty is QoL is accessibility.
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Re: The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by camwoodstock »

it's so funny reading this as us because the only games we can think of that actually let you toggle between hold to run/hold to walk are spelunky HD and spelunky 2. is this actually widespread enough that people are debating it? we just assumed it was a weird thing derek yu added after people got mad at holding the run button so much during speedruns, but we're so hardwired after NSMB on DS being one of our first games that having run as the default feels about as weird as inverted y-axis controls so we just don't bother

our hot take is that the only "bad accessibility" we can think of short of like, actively excluding them for whatever reason, are the various dumbfounding changes from those various minecraft combat snapshots that all made combat objectively worse strictly for the sake of making it "more accessible" for mobile players, which instead had the polar opposite effect of just making it more frustrating for them while also making everything worse for everyone playing on not mobile. we do not care how you set up QoL/accessibility/whatever features as long as you aren't the poor mojang employee who tried to pitch coyote time as a PvP mechanic. we refuse to elaborate further

like, in the grand scheme of things, accessibility in video games is a relatively new concept. tryhards did their best to try to gatekeep that sort of thing and get livid when you imply maybe disabled people deserve to have a hobby too, but their time is up (thank God) and we're slowly but surely seeing the arrival of accessibility functions in games, from subtitles to actively adding game modes that make things simpler for the sake of letting a player See what the game has to offer.

but because this is still a relatively recent development in the grand scheme of things, the bar for accessibility features is still so low it's basically on the floor, as the vast majority of games just don't think to include them short of "maybe a colorblindness option" or "how about captions here or there". the only way you can do them "bad" is to deliberately seek to either not include any of them at all, or worse, deliberately make them suck shit. or y'know, do a minecraft combat snapshot, and base it entirely on one version of the game that doesn't want any of the changes you're proposing, worsens things for them, and then has the nerve to worsen things for everyone else too.

anyways all this all a roundabout way of saying that we think a "run button is a toggle/is the default and you have a walk button" is perfectly fine, because while we don't use it and are going to just flick it to "hold to run!" in the settings, it's not hurting anyone by existing and, fuck man, you could be doing a lot worse

also, donkey kong country 2 is probably the best donkey kong country. listen i get it, i'm a monkey in specific, it feels like i should've played donkey kong country by now, but neither of us actually have played a donkey kong country yet. it defs has the best ost though. though fear factory from dkc1 is really fucking good.

also also, video games may or may not even exist, so this is all moot
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Re: The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by KobaBeach »

camwoodstock wrote: 1 year ago anyways all this all a roundabout way of saying that we think a "run button is a toggle/is the default and you have a walk button" is perfectly fine, because while we don't use it and are going to just flick it to "hold to run!" in the settings, it's not hurting anyone by existing and, fuck man, you could be doing a lot worse
this, i don't know why we're debating it or even going through the semantics that it shouldn't be in the accessibility tab like. who cares. just put it in or not

also play donkey kong country 1-3 and land 1 and returns and tf and don't touch 64 or land 2&3
land 1 is pretty terrible but at least it's not just boring 8bit dkc2&3 like the other ones, there's actual unique stuff
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Re: The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by raekuul »

camwoodstock wrote: 1 year agobut we're so hardwired after NSMB on DS being one of our first games that having run as the default
I must have played a different NSMB on DS than y'all, because I still get cramps in my right hand holding that run button down.
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Post by camwoodstock »

KobaBeach wrote: 1 year ago this, i don't know why we're debating it or even going through the semantics that it shouldn't be in the accessibility tab like. who cares. just put it in or not
what's especially funny is that spelunky HD/spelunky 2 (the games we singled out as the games we know for even having these) literally put it in the controls section. not even an accessibility zone. presumably bc spelunky HD is literally over a decade old now, the concept of accessibility features basically wasn't born yet (remember, accessibility features are FRIGHTENINGLY NEW for video games!), and the thought process probably amounted to "well, it changes your controls, it goes in controls!". and then when the feature returned for spelunky 2, it got grandfathered in to the controls menu, because hey, it was there in the first game, there's no dedicated "accessibility" category in settings, where else would it go?
raekuul wrote: 1 year ago I must have played a different NSMB on DS than y'all, because I still get cramps in my right hand holding that run button down.
uhhhh DS lite/DSi?
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Re: The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by raekuul »

DS Phat
camwoodstock wrote: 1 year ago
raekuul wrote: 1 year agoI must have played a different NSMB on DS than y'all, because I still get cramps in my right hand holding that run button down.
uhhhh DS lite/DSi?
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Re: The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by Rixithechao »

So, I really don't have the time to be posting here, but this stuff's been on my mind lately so I'm just gonna drop my thoughts and jet. Apologies for the oncoming messy wall of text.

Allowing run by default, switching between hold and toggle, etc. aren't just convenience/QoL things, they actually do help remove barriers for players with motor impairments. They're up there with options like toggling off the need for button-mashing, QTEs, and so on, or making such segments simpler or more forgiving; for players who have, for example, muscular dystrophy, simple things like repeatedly pressing buttons in quick succession or holding them down for long periods of time is much more difficult and strenuous. Settings like these aren't always made specifically with those players in mind, but they can still make a substantial difference to some even if it's a negligible part of the majority of players' experiences.

Honestly, I can't think of many common game settings that wouldn't help some players -- even something as seemingly-frivolous as window themes in an RPG could potentially let players with impaired vision give menus higher contrast to make them easier to read.

And while there are bigger problems wrt accessibility in game/menu design than the exact terminology and categorization used for settings, that doesn't mean it doesn't matter. The way you present your settings does convey a tone, with something as simple as "accessibility settings" vs "assist mode" carrying different implications about what the settings are meant for and possible assumptions about players using them. You want to avoid both mocking the player for needing to configure the game a specific way AND coming across as so aggressively helpful and non-judgmental to the point of feeling patronizing or infantilizing (though both are very much extremes and most devs who are at least slightly mindful of this would have to screw up hard to get particularly far in either direction).

Aside from that, though, it's a matter of clarity for navigating the settings -- you know how some games have subtitles in the audio section, some in a "text" category, others in graphics/display? So if you want to adjust them in a game you're just starting, or any common setting without such standards, where do you look for it? With the prior accessibility vs assist example, the former suggests the settings are geared toward removing barriers to the overall play experience that may not have anything to do with the gameplay, whereas the latter gives an impression of more of a difficulty/challenge focus.

Thoughtful and specific categorization of different kinds of inclusivity/accessibility can help with both the tone and clarity; rather than having things like content warnings and toggles for aspects of the game that could trigger phobias or conditions like misophonia all under an "accessibility" or "quality of life" label, why not just... "content"? For changes like run by default or removing QTEs, those would make sense to be under "controls" or "input". And this way you're normalizing these helpful features rather than drawing attention to them and/or stigmatizing them, which... that should really be the end goal with accessible and inclusive game design. Making the experience more seamless for more players.
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Re: The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by Lord Ruby »

My first thought when seeing the topic brought up was also something to the effect of "run control settings can actually be accessibility". Specifically, I was thinking of how holding a button and then pressing an adjacent button (that is, usually jumping while running) is a more complicated finger movement than just pressing the latter button.

In general, I think there is a small, but potentially useful, distinction between accessibility and QoL (or just elsewhere in general) options. Options under accessibility imply that the defaults are the intended experience, but that it's still fine to change them. Other options imply that all alternatives are intended. Although I suppose you can also imply intention by calling some alternatives recommended. I don't think classifying some options as accessibility is unwelcoming or disrespectful in general, but there are some exceptions where either accessibility or recommended are more respectful and appropriate.

As for running specifically, I'd say run buttons are archaic game design, as what appears to be by far the most common experience is that it's a button that should be held down almost all the time. There are even a couple of Mario games without one, such as Yoshi's Island and some of the 3D games (although the latter have a "go slow" option in walking while crouching). But before switching to having a walk button or introducing one in the first place, I think one should reconsider if parts of the game where such a button would be useful actually make a positive contribution to the game experience one is trying to convey - they probably aren't, likely being uncharacteristically precise or punishing.
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Re: The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by thatguyif »

(This is long)
I've been busy with some problems the past couple days. In particular, I lost heat, due to a busted furnace motor of some sort. In the 25 F/-4 C weather I was experiencing at the time, you could see the issues I was facing. I speak of this to tie into what I want to say here.

Accessibility, as I have known it in the vast majority of my life dealing with my crippled hands and troubles speaking, is a physical, material thing that is about making disabled people live a relatively normal life. Sometimes that's physical, like a parking space near the front entrance of the store, a wider gate at the subway station, elevators in places where there are usually stairs and escalators. Sometimes that's legal, like making sure someone is able to have and keep their job under the auspices of the law. Regardless of the form, there's nothing fundamentally abstract about it. For a lot of disabled peeps, physical and material needs matter every fucking day—like a broken furnace—because we struggle with things most people don't, and accessibility is often the means in which we are able to stay on the level. It's an imperfect system that needs reform, for damn sure, but it works.

The whole "accessibility" thing in gaming is something I've viewed with extreme wariness. Are there situations in video games where accessibility functions can exist based on what I described? Yes, but they have limited use cases that only affect a small number of people. I'm thinking color filters for the colorblind, low-contrast filters that limit flashing effects for epileptics, full-context voiceovers for blind and visually impaired peeps, stuff like that. Controls are a different beast, but I'll get to that in a moment. But basically, the point is that accessibility options will help these people, yet most of the time, it's of little use to video gamers as a whole.

That's not what I'm seeing when I see people talk up "accessibility." Instead, what I see are people without any disabilities whatsoever, or people whose disabilities don't really affect their ability to play at the same level as a non-disabled person would, making complaints about how a game functions in a way that makes it, well, inconvenient for them to play. That's not really difficulty related—and I'll admit my use of the word "easier" in the Shoutbox was probably not the most prudent—so much as it is trying to change the game experience so that it aligns with their playing style. This speaks to me of certain, I dunno, resentment that a game they spent a significant amount of money on does not play the way they want it to, but they can't get a refund or they don't want to return it due to social pressures. (Goes without saying that a lot of accessibility talk seems razor-focused on games that get a lot of attention in social media, to say nothing of AAA or highly popular indie titles. FOMO and social contagion play a role, for sure.)

On its own, such inconveniences are kind of unfortunate but also not really all that relevant. It's crying over spilled milk, or #FirstWorldProblems. And honestly I wouldn't care all that much if that simply were the case. What bothers me is that, whether intentional or not, these same (typically white) nerds crowing over these inconveniences have appropriated the concept of accessibility to bolster their case. I do not know why they decided to do that—I'm guessing some big indie game or one of the Souls games created accessibility menus and they latched on to that, or they spent too much time on Tumblr and Twitter. Regardless, as is the case with a lot of cultural appropriations done by nerds in the last decades, it gets twisted into this weird moralistic thing that implies a certain righteousness, usually because of the prior association. That way, whenever someone criticizes it, either legitimately or through right-wing polemic trolling, the response to it is to shout it down and drag disabled people into it as props to assure that they are seen as good guys. Ultimately that shit starts rolling downhill, and what was once simply a concept to help disabled people turns into another culture war battlefield fought on social media and site comment sections by privileged narcissist nerds representing two abstract sides, and disabled people get hurt.

Moreover, using accessibility as a cover for complaining about inconveniences ultimately serve as a distraction for having more relevant discussions on game design. Like, going into controls: People with disabilities that affect their ability to play video games, myself included, tend to work around issues related to controls. For example, I can't button mash on my right hand at all. I work around it when faced with a game that incorporates such mashing by using my left hand, or both hands should the button-mashing be particularly intense. At the same time, some control mechanics just suck, even for non-disabled people, and you don't need to make a case about accessibility to say so. Back to button-mashing: Even disregarding my prior issues with it, is there really any serious benefit to having a control mechanic that requires you to rapidly press something using only your thumb, which isn't something our thumbs can do well anyway? I mean, a lot of third-party controllers have had turbo functionality for decades at this point, and they've had it for a reason. (I can think of competitive e-sports games as making button-mashing matter, but those are the exception, really)

If I had to shorten all this and tie it back to the original subject, it's that if you're going to have an accessibility menu, make the options specific to disabled people. Whatever troubles you have with a game, you should articulate them honestly as being personal (and accept the consequences of doing so), and recognize there are other ways to address them outside the language and context of disability. Consider this whole "hold to run" situation: That's an option that sounds similar to "Inverse Y-Axis" or "Camera Lock." With that, you can just put it under standard Control or Gameplay Options, not in an Accessibility menu, and it would have the same utility without it feeling out of place. Hell, it would probably be easier to find, in all honesty.
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Re: The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by ano0maly »

still not taking questions

please visit Valentine's cave it's a nice place
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Re: The run button drama thread (NOT feat. shoutbox)

Post by KobaBeach »

thatguyif wrote: 1 year ago words
your entire post reads so much like gamergate #notyourshield spiel you have no idea. source: i was literally a #notyourshield gamergater back in like 2014
ano0maly wrote: 9 months ago please visit Valentine's cave it's a nice place
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