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The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

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The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by EllenHouraisan »

"Hello, mister Oswald of Carim. I would like to indict someone for their sins. Goes by the name of ZUN. Nasty fella."

"Aren't you the girl who keeps yelling outside about how the Bell Gargoyles are easy and their attacks are heavily telegraphed?"

"...Maybe. Nevermind that. Here's the list of all the things he has done, to the best of my knowledge."
- Copyright strikes: ZUN has always quietly accepted that circles that produce Touhou arranges throw copyright strikes around to terminate channels that post them, a shitty practice as many of us in the west have no access to this music otherwise. But not only that, he has also indulged in the practice by sending mass copyright strikes to people who posted Trojan Green Asteroid music back when it came out. That caused the loss of quite a few Youtube channels, some that had other content than just Touhou music. Strangely enough, music from the games or past albums is fair game, but everything from TGA onwards is no go. And for anyone about to throw the "it's in his right" card, yes, you are correct, this is why it's a list of sins, not crimes.
- The Touhou Smash incident: Now this one is a gigantic dumpster fire, so I'll have to give the footnotes. Basically, western indie dev From Soy Sauce was making a Touhou x Smash Bros fangame. They crowdfunded it through Kickstarter and also posted something about wanting to get the game on console (that was back before that became common, more on that later on). ZUN caught wind of it and took to Twitter, said that he disapproved of it and left some cryptic shit about how it was against the "doujin spirit". Everyone at FSS was confused and didn't know what to do. Namusan, the admin of the biggest 2hu Facebook page, saw this as an opportunity to get some sick engagement and started to stoke the fires, arranging some communication between both parties. Instead of talking to them himself to get this stuff sorted, ZUN sent in his place some chungus who nobody knows but has apparently "contibuted a lot to the Touhou franchise". He basically just repeated what ZUN had said, didn't really clarify much of anything, and pushed on for them to cancel the game. They complied, although apparently they reworked it into just a smash clone without Touhou characters. Now, that's already pretty bad, but AT THE SAME TIME, ZUN was pushing for some eastern fangames to be released on console, at least one of which was crowdfunded through some chinese service. So... Yeah, doujin spirit, huh?
- Lazyness: Over the years, ZUN has shown an increasing amount of disregard for the franchise. Newer games have lots of asset reusal and a sharp decrease in quality of backgrounds and such (it would be understandable if he was under a tight deadline as opposed to, you know, a whole year). His games get released on Steam as is, without any sort of translation, which he insists should be handled by fans exclusively (maybe pay them for it, then? Oh, right, that would go against the "doujin spirit"). Older ones see no release, because porting them would require a non-zero amount of effort. Also, apparently the card system in UM is quite broken because he couldn't be bothered to test it thoroughly and for some reason didn't hire anyone to do it for him despite being the sole owner of a huge game franchise. These may all be small things on a grand scale, but I might as well throw 'em here since we're washing dirty laundry.
- Selling his franchise to the gacha devil: Twice, even. Okay, this one I DO think is real bad. A lot of people consider gacha games to be a non-issue, but I'm one of those Jim Sterling types of people who absolutely loathes ultra-predatory monetization in games, and gacha is the epitome of that. To see something that I loved so much being turned into a corporate whale meatgrinder is downright depressing, when it used to be such a "by the people, for the people" kind of series. There's never been a need for that.
- Music stuff: Lastly, there's been talk of ZUN opening a record label or something to "facilitate the publishing of Touhou arranges". It's very crystal clear a ploy to make money out of fanworks. Again, absolutely no need for this, it's greed pure and simple. I didn't really keep up with the story because I'm no longer all that involved with the fanbase, so I can't say how it developed from there, if at all. Still, a very "doujin spirit" move to make, for sure.
- Won't bring Mima back.
- There's probably more that I don't know of, or that my ADD brain refuses to remember right when I need it. But these are what I can tell from the top of my head. Do with this knowledge what you will. I will not debate anyone, though, so if it turns out I'm wrong about everything, let the feeling alone satisfy you.~
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by ZephyrBurst »

If there's an award for "Most Useless Thread", this could win it.
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by TiKi »

Ironically, the one thing I was even thinking of docking him points for wasn't even on this list.

That in question being, so he's hired people who have made Touhou doujin before to work on the "official" manga. So far so good. Great fan-creator relationship. However I've heard that some of them were hentai doujin authors? Needless to say, there's enough underage or questionably-so characters in the series to make that sound a little messed up unless there's a piece of information that I'm missing.
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by KobaBeach »

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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by TiKi »

I'm gonna separate my non-serious questions from my last post since it's a bit of a doozy and would overshadow these, but there are also a few plot points that I don't feel are sufficiently-explored enough. Part of it just boils down to there being like 5 new touhous per game, but even in the released works I feel like there was enough room to answer at least some of these questions. Spoilers for the entire series ahoy!
-If Okina was based on the god of a mystery cult, why does she suddenly want to publicly show off her power - and why now instead of immediately following the formation of Gensokyo? Also, I have to question why she has her creepy servants if they're not very good at, uh, serving her. They act as bodyguards, sure, but compared to someone like Sanae, I can't imagine anything they'd try to do to convert people working. Getting basically stockholm syndromed just by worshipping Okina? No thanks.

-Where are Sanae's parents? If they're dead and Kanako/Suwako have taken their place, then how did they pull off the whole two moms thing in 2000s-something Japan as a shrine maiden's parents?

-Why is Reimu unpopular amongst the human village, to the point where Fortune Teller Guy said "everyone calls it [the Hakurei Shrine] the Youkai Shrine!"? I know she admittedly is lenient on youkai-exterminating - probably more so than her mother - and not only gets her shrine crashed by youkai for house parties, but has at least two of them (Suika and Aunn) living there. However, that's no excuse for the human villagers to not be grateful for the fact that, to quote a certain show, "who saves your yellow backside from certain destruction on a regular basis?"

-Reimu's sometimes portrayed as a hardass who's a little strict on rules or has just been so burnt out on life and being unpopular amongst humans that she can't give a #%$& - but she let the Moriyas put a shrine in her own shrine after Sanae tried to claim it. Why this sudden spurt of generosity? I know the Moriyas could probably beat Reimu black and blue if she didn't play nice if it weren't for the spell card rules... but if they even tried then Yukari would kick their asses back out of Gensokyo.

-Where's Hades* and why does Hecatia have his job? Also, what does she think of the "Outside World" Hellenists of today? I don't think she even mentions being worshipped even in Greece/Rome, for that matter.

-Why did Fortune Teller Guy look like fuckin' Nosferatu when every other formerly-human youkai, such as Alice and Byakuren, generally kept their human appearance?

-And speaking of those three, why did Reimu kill him for the crime of rejecting his humanity while letting Alice and Byakuren live?

-We've seen that mythical creatures from other realms can live in Gensokyo - from the Eastern-European Remilia/Flandre Scarlet to the English fairies such as Cirno. The trouble is, if fairies are fair game then where are those other fair folk? You know, the Celtic ones that webcomics are obsessed with and are not bakas or (9)s or anything.

-Do all youkai have to eat humans, or just the ones that humans have said to eat humans (and thus made it a reality)? I know they're fairies and not youkai proper, but I don't think Cottingley-style fairies such as Cirno were ever said to eat humans in folklore.

-This isn't really ZUN's fault but I can't shake the feeling that I'm gonna die in a car accident before the series' few series-long arcs' questions (such as who the God of the Hakurei Shrine is, and the connection between Maribel and Yukari) are answered. And for the record, as for where my money is on the last one... "Necrofantasia" is just a fancy way of saying "Dying dream" - and Gensokyo is literally the Land of Fantasy/Illusions.

*The fangame "The Last Comer" (yes the jesus one) has one of the most hilarious answers to this question ever, mind you. I'm not gonna spoil it, think about it for a second before you look it up...!
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by Zygl »

"I'm gonna make a thread for the express purpose of mudslinging about ZUN"
"I'm not gonna source anything I say and will explicitly not be taking questions"
ZephyrBurst wrote: 2 years ago If there's an award for "Most Useless Thread", this could win it.
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by camwoodstock »

Zygl wrote: 2 years ago "I'm gonna make a thread for the express purpose of mudslinging about ZUN"
"I'm not gonna source anything I say and will explicitly not be taking questions"
ZephyrBurst wrote: 2 years ago If there's an award for "Most Useless Thread", this could win it.
i think maybe (just maybe) (hear me out) disliking games should sometimes remain a matter of personal preference rather than (for instance) something requiring some illusion of superiority or grandeur especially if (perhaps) there is no tangible superiority to be had

okay my goofing aside like... honestly if there's literally nothing cited this just comes off as overly negative/petty, for the sake of... i dunno, being overly negative/petty? i know the real reason is just "having a personal dislike for touhou" but like, surely that is just an opinion one can have, time has changed, the talkhaus space is not nearly as touhous-centric as it once was (tho it is undeniably still a part of the talkhausian culture considering calleoca's role in future asmt projects directly came from trying to make sense of an otherwise strange rumia boss fight in asmt 1), we don't think people would be anywhere near as flabbergasted at the take of "i dislike touhous!" if it wasn't attached to,,, This,,, y'know??

like, if you're naming a thread "the <x> drama thread" at what point do you toss out whatever it is you're about to post, tbh, that's like just an admission of "this is objectively not a good idea"
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by Donut »

If I can be honest, a lot of these points seem to debate themselves, but since I am indirectly the reason this thread was created in the first place, I guess I'll go to bat here, even at the risk of showing my fandom a little too much.
>Copyright strikes

I was as confused as anyone when ZUN took down all those Trojan Green Asteroid videos, but I think it's pretty clear that he considers the music of the music CDs to be the "content" of the work, and treats them differently from the music of the games. As you said yourself, ZUN is under full rights to make whatever policies he wants with his works, and the fact that he "grandfathered" the music CDs before he implemented this policy speaks more about him than him taking them down. The fact that he's seemingly stopped striking Trojan Green Asteroid and all the CDs are available on various music platforms only makes this feel all the more trivial in my eyes.

>Touhou Smash

I'm only marginally familiar with this incident, but I think that the big sticking point here was that he viewed crowdfunding as against his views on what doujin is about. The worst you can say about ZUN is that he's old-fashioned, but it's worth saying that this was an isolated incident, and he's both allowed countless western games to be made and sold with no problem (even including the award-winning "Sakuya Izayoi Gives You Advice And Dabs"), and has become far more open-minded in recent years.

>Laziness

I honestly thought this was a random Youtuber's personal meme until just now, but if the "asset reuse" you're talking about is a stage 1 background showing up again in a later game, that's really splitting hairs. Obviously most of this is subjective, but as someone who's been an avid player since Mountain of Faith was new, I think the games are just as good as they've ever been, with the last two being some of my favorites in the series.

What is less subjective is framing his statement that he'll "leave translation to the fans" as some kind of laziness, rather than faith that the western fanbase can do a better job than a one-man operation like him ever could. Considering one fighting game and two manga have gotten official localizations, and have been received...coolly, at best, I think he's entirely justified in that belief.

>Gacha

This was the only point in this list I actually expected, and while I have no love for gacha, I think it's worth saying that ZUN has no involvement other than giving them permission to be made, and, so far as I can tell, doesn't make a cent off of them. I think him allowing things like these is a function of him not wanting to stifle the fandom, along with acknowledging the changing landscape, but how much that changes things entirely depends on your stance on gacha, so I'll leave it at that.

>Mima still hasn't come back

Would you believe me if I said it's a (very unlikely but non-zero chance) theory she might be the as-of-yet unidentified antagonist of one of the current manga? It's probably not going to happen but people can dream.

>Record label???

Looking it up, you're referring to an officially sanctioned publisher that helps Touhou fan music be hosted online, which seems to go against most of your arguments that the music is inaccessible, soooo...

>Adult artists working on official manga (not the OP's point but worth mentioning anyway)

My general understanding is that ZUN keeps an arm's length but permissive stance on H-doujin, so long as they don't literally break laws. Whatever stuff the artists he works with does on their own certainly doesn't reflect the stuff they make for the official manga, at least.
Really, it's not as though ZUN has a completely spotless record. There's an element in the very game raocow is set to play that was the subject of a Twitter Conversation (with all that entails) for a few days after release that will no doubt be addressed when the game is played. But in general it's hard to find a bad thing to say about ZUN, and you have to really dig to find anything to attempt being scandalized over (did you know one of the character portraits in a PC-98 game was a trace of a character from an eroge? Strange, but true). In contrast, some relatively recent examples of his character include:

* Giving the manga artists working under him as many breaks as they need, whether it be for injury or health reasons, even going so far as to put a manga on hiatus for six months when the artist said they had to drop out so he could find a worthy successor
*Liking a small town he visited on vacation enough to compose a song for their tourism site
*Hearing there was some obscure game called "Undertale" that seemed to borrow a lot of elements from Touhou, and his response was saying "hey this is actually really nice" and becoming friends with the creator

So yeah. I think I put more effort into this than was warranted, but I like to be thorough when I do something like this at all.
Last edited by Donut 2 years ago, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by Skye »

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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by horsecicle »

A donut being blessed by the sky. Nature truly is beautiful.
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by KobaBeach »

Donut wrote: 2 years ago did you know one of the character portraits in a PC-98 game was a trace of a character from an eroge? Strange, but true
the funniest part is that it's rance

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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by Reecer7 »

after reading this thread, my opinion of zoom has shifted to neutral, from its original position of neutral
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by camwoodstock »

Reecer7 wrote: 2 years ago after reading this thread, my opinion of zoom has shifted to neutral, from its original position of neutral
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by Kilgamayan »

> Touhou Super Smash Battles

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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by KobaBeach »

Kilgamayan wrote: 2 years ago > Touhou Super Smash Battles

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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by Kilgamayan »

Fun Fact #1: I was one half of the donation that floated Eiki into the game (thankfully I got my refund once it became obvious where everything was going)

Fun Fact #2: The videos From Soy Sauce made with their little dancing robot completely twisting every truth they could get their phalanges into made fun of Edible but not me despite us both being Shrinemaiden admins at the time :(
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by Rixithechao »

I wasn't familiar with that touhou smash stuff myself, but when Ellen specified the western devs thing in the coming up next thread I googled around to see what exactly she was talking about and one of the first things I found was a forum thread by the devs announcing their crowdfunding campaign and proceeding to admit that they contacted ZUN for permission but went ahead and launched it before hearing back from him.

So, uh, that's certainly a first impression.


Also:
- aiui the source code for games 1-10 was lost? That's not a "non-zero effort" thing, we're talking about either throwing together some injection/emulation setup of the compiled executables like we do with SMBX2 or Nintendo does for ports of their old games, or just rebuilding a whole set of games. Either way that seems like quite the undertaking for someone who generally prefers to work completely on his own for the numbered entries, with the Tasofro games and Fairy Wars being the only exceptions afaik.

- Regarding the gacha stuff and licensing out the Touhou IP:


That whole thread is worth a read, but I'd like to point out these two tweets in particular:


- Speaking generally, "lazy devs" is a lazy take. if a developer or team is actually lazy, they won't finish their work. Seeing a project through to completion at all requires a certain level of commitment and powering through the tedious parts of development, especially if it's a solo- or small-team game with any sense of production values, and people tend to vastly underestimate the amount of work that goes into not just making a game's systems and content but everything else you need to do to make those things add up to a complete package. Reusing/repurposing assets is not only practical but in some cases a necessity for the sake of scope management, and "slips" in the game's production values like missing visual polish or bugs/performance issues can almost always be chalked up to a dozen other potential factors before assuming a poor work ethic.
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by Donut »

To add onto that last point, since Unconnected Marketeers' sometimes janky card system was brought up in the OP, I'll note that, while it's unclear what the average time it takes to make each game, ZUN specified that the development cycle for that game was a whopping six months. Given it has by far the most elaborate game mechanic ZUN has ever undertaken (he essentially created an entire roguelite component) and still, in my opinion, has some of his most creative and interesting bullet patterns in recent memory, I think it's entirely forgivable if a few interactions within said card system are a little weird. He even pokes fun at himself for what he no doubt missed and admits his limitations as a one man group.
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by Rixithechao »

On a tangentially-related note (to my previous post, not the Unconnected Marketeers stuff), I just found out that Tasofro made Megamari and the Marisa Land games. Somehow all this time I thought they just made the fighting games and Gouyoku Ibun and that the Marisa fangames were a separate circle, but no, the same devs have been alternating between collaborating with ZUN to make official spinoff games and making Touhou doujin titles without his involvement! That's heckin rad.
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by ano0maly »

Twilight Frontier made quite a few fangames (sometimes doujin work with official support from original creator) of different franchises:
  • Eternal Fighter Zero - A fighting game with characters from visual novels associated with Key
  • Higurashi Daybreak - A multiplayer 3D shooter/combat match game with Higurashi When They Cry characters
  • Grief Syndrome - A beat-em-up based on Madoka series
The circle hasn't made these other franchise games in some time, though. Wish we can see more of these.
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by TiKi »

Not to disagree because yeah you're right that the hentai stuff doesn't leak into the official manga. But you did make a good point about uncited sources so here you go
https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comment ... t/fqcha2d/

I'll admit that's a spurious source, but I swear I've seen it repeated. Unfortunately, looking at their Touhou Wiki pages doesn't give much more than a list of titles they've worked on (and download links in the latter artist's case), which... isn't exactly something I want to dive into if there's a chance this stuff could be true. So I'll write it down as just a rumour at this point unless someone actually knows.
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by KobaBeach »

wasn't saijee from fss the same person who did that 3d asmt fangame engine that had a rainbow dash powerup
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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by camwoodstock »

KobaBeach wrote: 2 years ago wasn't saijee from fss the same person who did that 3d asmt fangame engine that had a rainbow dash powerup
can we please rename this thread "The KobaBeach needs to explain the 3D ASMT Fangame Engine with a Rainbow Dash Powerup NOW thread (ESPECIALLY feat. KobaBeach)" because i think this entire comment has effectively won the thread

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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by Grounder »

zun bring back my main girl shinki or i'm gonna in his house :monstrosity: :monstrosity: :monstrosity:
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: The 2hu drama thread (NOT feat. Kisume.txt)

Post by freshtalk »

A lot of effort in this thread just to refute one person's lame trolling.
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