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romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

do you like them video games? what about those there romhacks? well pop on in here and talk about them then! what are you waiting for?!
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KobaBeach
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by KobaBeach »

i dont know what you want me to do about it. people play mario for levels

reply 100 get
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by TiKi »

KobaBeach wrote: 1 year agopeople play mario for levels
huh, am i a rarity? i think a good mario game needs both good levels and bosses. though i guess my mistake is expecting hobbyist projects to be beholden to "high quality game design"

though admittedly it's not like nintendo's been real winners in the 2d mario boss department lately, there's definitely a void that needs to be filled by fan works
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by KobaBeach »

TiKi wrote: 1 year ago though i guess my mistake is expecting hobbyist projects to be beholden to "high quality game design"
(...)
there's definitely a void that needs to be filled by fan works
which is it bro

people aren't gonna make bosses for you with specifications designed exclusively with you in mind
stop being entitled and make your own

i'm fresh off a six hour session of half of hoshigami's first chapter, with fast forwards, and i dont really want to get into a "mario hacks have to have bosses and they have to be better than sex" discussion

if you want to see bosses in mario then make your own. that's how the world is
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by TiKi »

i'd say that you having played a bad game and it putting you in a bad mood isn't my fault... ...but i guess the same applies for me thinking that just because i'm (diagnosed/medicated) depressed and want something entertaining that i should get it because it's no one else's fault there either, doesn't it. so... sorry. i guess now we hug it out?
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by KobaBeach »

TiKi wrote: 1 year ago i guess the same applies for me thinking that just because i'm (diagnosed/medicated) depressed and want something entertaining that i should get it because it's no one else's fault there either, doesn't it. so... sorry. i guess now we hug it out?
thank you for understanding :pray:
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by TiKi »

does anyone recognize this hack
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by TiKi »

are we allowed to talk about the process of romhacking in regards to its accessibility?
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by KobaBeach »

Unlike certain, Valentine-like "humans" I actually LIKE SMWCP2 so far. #owned

I made it to Velocity Valves and I just played a bunch of other shit instead like Torneko Mystery Dungeon 1 and Star Ocean Blue Sphere and Lunar Sanposuru Gakuen. oops. Rakugaki is also pretty great, but MARIO MUSICAL is too hard for me lmao, had to use savestates, need to do the secret exit. Heraga said he feels like he should have made more references to stuff in the level names like a real Japanese hack. I propose Mario Musical be named "天変地異の詩" (Song of the Angels Natural Disaster) or "草原の檻歌" (Cagesong of the Ocean Meadow) in this bizarro world
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by TiKi »

would a pc source port like SM64 do cool stuff for the SMW modding scene, or is the game too attached to old graphics and sound formats? I think having to use assembly vs. say, C++ or Lua is a big barrier to people learning how to make more unique-playing hacks.
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by LethalBrownies »

Can someone tell me the mastermind behind the yoshi egg boss in castle 2 in asmt? It's such a pain in the ass I can't help but be impressed. :lol: :calleoca: I know crushawake made the level but I don't know if he made the boss as well!
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by KobaBeach »

probably crush awaeke
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by LethalBrownies »

Okay so Argumentable is an evil genius. 'A Honeypot Trap' is one of the most frustrating non-kaizo levels I have ever played in my life. nyoro~n
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by KobaBeach »

yeah it's garbage
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by LethalBrownies »

KobaBeach wrote: 1 year ago yeah it's garbage
I don't usually like describing levels like that but after the experience I just had I think it's somewhat accurate. Still, it's well made to be frustrating. But garbage properly lays out my feelings towards it right now.
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by TiKi »

TiKi wrote: 1 year ago would a pc source port like SM64 do cool stuff for the SMW modding scene, or is the game too attached to old graphics and sound formats? I think having to use assembly vs. say, C++ or Lua is a big barrier to people learning how to make more unique-playing hacks.
Uh... was this a bad idea?
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by KobaBeach »

i do not see the point of porting smw over to pc nor do i know if it's possible
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by KobaBeach »

also i believe you can code in C without having it be the PC version of SM64, so
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by TiKi »

KobaBeach wrote: 1 year ago also i believe you can code in C without having it be the PC version of SM64, so
i meant being able to code in C/C++ for smw, i've been tinkering/contributing to the C++ (con)version of SMBX (thextech) and i find it so much more eminently readable than smw's assembly in terms of structure, variable names, etc., and that's with the smbx creator's code being bad/inefficient in places
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by KobaBeach »

i feel like that depends on someone making a recompilation in c for smw i think??? im not 100% sure

im not doing it myself its too much. and trying to make my own lunar magic was already too much
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by PSI Ninja »

A few months ago, I was curious whether or not someone was working towards a decompilation of the SMW source code to a high-level language like C. When I looked it up on the Central, this was the closest thing I could find, but unfortunately it seems to be an abandoned effort: https://www.smwcentral.net/?p=viewthread&t=78013

On one hand, it's pretty surprising that a full decompilation for SMW doesn't exist yet. Since N64 games like Super Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time have C decompilations, you'd think that a previous generation game like SMW should already have one. But on the other hand, I think the reason why there isn't a decompilation yet is that a lot of the tools and patches used in SMW hacking were built with ASM coding in mind. It would take a huge effort to have to convert all of those to work with C, when the staff already has plenty of work dealing with moderation of newer submissions, as well as remoderation of older submissions for efficiency and compatibility. So it could be a matter of attitude or hacking culture that prevents a decompilation of SMW from happening.

Regarding ASM, I prefer to learn by example, so my main issue here is that a lot of the available patches and sprite code just aren't documented or commented well enough for a learner to understand easily. Furthermore, ASM authors employ a lot of tricks and shortcuts to write efficient code, which is fair, because you want the game to run as smoothly as possible. But from my point of view, these tricks sort of obfuscate the code, making it harder for an aspiring ASMer to disentangle. As a result, it leads to a lot of tinkering and experimentation on my part to try to figure out how to get things to work, coming from someone who's coding a lot of ASM gimmicks for AAT. But I guess that's meant to be part of the experience of ROM hacking.

Another problem I have is that, even after about a year of writing increasingly complex ASM, I still don't think I have a handle on how SMW "works". There are plenty of tutorials on how to learn ASM, code sprites, etc., but I feel like it's all taught in a vacuum. I have yet to understand how all of the different components of the game connect together. For example, what is the programmatic flow between sprite code, block code, and UberASM? What triggers going from the overworld to the levels proper (something to do with changing game modes?). I haven't been able to find a document that gives the high-level view of how SMW works.
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by KobaBeach »

PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year ago Another problem I have is that, even after about a year of writing increasingly complex ASM, I still don't think I have a handle on how SMW "works". There are plenty of tutorials on how to learn ASM, code sprites, etc., but I feel like it's all taught in a vacuum. I have yet to understand how all of the different components of the game connect together. For example, what is the programmatic flow between sprite code, block code, and UberASM? What triggers going from the overworld to the levels proper (something to do with changing game modes?). I haven't been able to find a document that gives the high-level view of how SMW works.
holy shit bro preach
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by Argumentable »

LethalBrownies wrote: 1 year ago
KobaBeach wrote: 1 year ago yeah it's garbage
I don't usually like describing levels like that but after the experience I just had I think it's somewhat accurate. Still, it's well made to be frustrating. But garbage properly lays out my feelings towards it right now.
It's fine until isn't. Garbage is accurate - the bees shoudl've been stompable
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by TiKi »

WARNING: A HUGE BATTLESHIP
"WALL OF TEXT"
IS APPROACHING FAST!
PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year agoRegarding ASM, I prefer to learn by example, so my main issue here is that a lot of the available patches and sprite code just aren't documented or commented well enough for a learner to understand easily. Furthermore, ASM authors employ a lot of tricks and shortcuts to write efficient code, which is fair, because you want the game to run as smoothly as possible. But from my point of view, these tricks sort of obfuscate the code, making it harder for an aspiring ASMer to disentangle. As a result, it leads to a lot of tinkering and experimentation on my part to try to figure out how to get things to work, coming from someone who's coding a lot of ASM gimmicks for AAT. But I guess that's meant to be part of the experience of ROM hacking.
This is a huge issue I have. I've been wanting to fix a lot of the janky sprites on SMWCentral, but the code effectively seems to be "read-only" in nature due to a lack of comments and the byzantine tricks used to optimize them. I'm sure a lot of other ASMers, even those who are "good", feel the same, in that you have to effectively know how the sprite works well enough to fix it that you're pretty much at the level where you could just remake it.
PSI Ninja wrote: 1 year agoAnother problem I have is that, even after about a year of writing increasingly complex ASM, I still don't think I have a handle on how SMW "works". There are plenty of tutorials on how to learn ASM, code sprites, etc., but I feel like it's all taught in a vacuum. I have yet to understand how all of the different components of the game connect together. For example, what is the programmatic flow between sprite code, block code, and UberASM? What triggers going from the overworld to the levels proper (something to do with changing game modes?). I haven't been able to find a document that gives the high-level view of how SMW works.
Yeah, this too. It feels like learning ASM for SMW is a full-time hobby that I am not only very much not getting paid for, but if I decide to leave SMW hacking has almost zero relevance/transferability to other hobbies. People kvetched at me on SMWCentral for saying I'd prefer to be a graphics guy, but the truth of the matter is that by being a "graphics guy", I was making graphics that not only work almost as-is in other programs such as SMBX and Zelda Classic, but also learning how to further make graphics. I won't lie and say that it's gonna ever be a commercially-useful skill for me, but it transfers a lot better to other forms of gamedev (or even spriting for its own sake) than learning SMW ASM would.

Another issue I have is that I find ASM's laconicness to almost make it unreadable. I've been tinkering with Wohlstand's port of the SMBX 1.3 source code to C++ (TheXTech), and I can read stuff and just understand what it does. Okay so, here's the uncommented code for how a Swooper animates in TheXTech. (Well, it does say "bat thing", but I could be able to tell that pretty easily because there's a Swooper graphic labelled npc-271 in SMBX's asset folder.)
else if(NPC[A].Type == 271) // bat thing
{
if(NPC[A].Special == 0)
NPC[A].Frame = 0;
else
{
NPC[A].Frame = 1;
NPC[A].FrameCount += 1;
if(NPC[A].FrameCount > 15)
NPC[A].FrameCount = 0;
else if(NPC[A].FrameCount >= 8)
NPC[A].Frame = 2;
}
if(NPC[A].Direction == 1)
NPC[A].Frame += 3;
If the NPC's "Special" value is 0, it's resting, so it uses the resting frame, frame 0. Otherwise, it uses the two flying frames by setting the frame to 1, counting up each frame, and if the framecount is greater than 8, it uses the second frame. Then it continues framecounting, and if it is greater than 15, it resets the counter to 0, which has the side effect of setting the frame back to 1. This repeats. This logic is all for the leftward sprites, and we can see that if the direction is 1 (right), the frame amount on the sheet is incremented by three so the right-facing frames, frames 3-5 (fourth, fifth, sixth), are used.

See? I understood it. The variable names made it easily understandable and hijackable - I could add or drop frames for both resting and flying states as I pleased, make it animate as quickly or slowly as I wanted, and if I were to update the NPC's actual code in another file, I could add more "Special" states that led to more special animations - say, if it was at a certain vertical range above or below the player, it displays angry eye sprites by adding 6 to NPC[A].Frame if NPC[A].Special == 2 (and rewriting that "else" for Special State 1 up there to be "if(NPC[A]/Special == 1)", of course).

I don't have this same feeling at ALL when looking at either SMW's disassemblies or the actual custom code on SMWCentral. Three letter commands, reading/writing value/variable addresses, jumping to code execution addresses, it being all in hexadecimal, using the stack - what the HELL? I saw people say that they "just don't get programming" or they "just don't get ASM" but I think those two things are very different problems. I get programming. You saw that I was able to view C++ code and understand its logic, what was happening each step of the way. ASM feels like trying to program but without my glasses on, or with one hand tied behind my back. It's the same ideas as C++, of course - ASM produces a very similar animation for the Swooper in Super Mario World on SNES, and I'm sure the SMBX/C++ method of animation is pretty much what that SMW Swooper animation code is doing in layman's terms... but it's way harder for meto just get the ideas across to the computer. I don't know if that's a failure of ASM as being accessible/human-readable/writable, or if it's a failure of me to just be hard-headed enough to use it anyways, but I feel as though a lot of people who "can program" feel the exact same way about writing ASM.

The reason I wondered about a C++ port of SMW is so that I could use that friendly syntax you saw in the SMBX code above - and I'm sure a lot of other people could do great things with it, too. However, due to SMBX's existence and people having an attachment to running SMW hacks/code on actual hardware/emulators, I suppose there wouldn't be too much interest or value.
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by KobaBeach »

i feel bad replying to this without responding to the wall of text above me but

practicing level design, none are finished and still need finishing touches (sprites and blocks i intend to place, hdma in intro stage, 8bit graphics in eat glue)
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asm:
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mikeyk
smkdan
sonichu sonikku

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black sabbath
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daizo
marisa
taking a bit of downtime to practice ripping stuff for rpg maker 2k. xp, vxA and mv is ezpz
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Re: romhack shack 改 (discord on OP, but don't abandon the thread!!!)

Post by KobaBeach »

kaizo mario uploader x is dead long live kaizo mario uploader x

(not sure if akaginite wants to bring it back and i don't want to bother her with broken japanese)

I've archived a lot of stuff from JP Mario sites' archive.org links, scattered archives and SMWC and I'm working on extracting some graphics from Mario hacks that don't have better organized equivalents on modern SMWC.

Also need to start converting ancient BlockTool blocks to GPS by hand (and add TopCorners), reorganize some of the old graphics to not murder the palettes and have shitty map16, fix whatever ancient JP ports I haven't fixed yet, and see if I can figure out fixing some data.zip stuff, possibly.

Will try to upload what's not on SMWC as a huge fucking ZIP to my site when I'm able to. It's backed up on Github (roms and all :shushing_face:).
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