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Sonic the Threadgehog

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Mata Hari
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Mata Hari » 11 months ago

I enjoy the fact that in this modern world the solution to your new games being crap is making old games

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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Bean » 11 months ago

It's how they used to do the Sonic Team and Dimps games until Dimps decided to make similar dumb design choices in their handheld stuff!

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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Ashan » 11 months ago

If you missed the livestream or just didn't want to watch like 80 hours of cringey dancing and audio issues, here's a highlight reel

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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby ACesspoolofHatred » 10 months ago




Video by Superbunnyhop detailing some of the people behind Sonic Mania.

One thing he missed is that PagodaWest Games is made up of people who once worked on the aborted Sonic 2 HD fan project.

So this is essentially an officially sanctioned 2D game by extreme megafans.

...Also, side note about Taxman. He was commissioned to develop the engine for Freedom Planet 2 and port the previous game's physics to Unity.
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Chrysanth » 10 months ago

Mata Hari wrote:I enjoy the fact that in this modern world the solution to your new games being crap is making old games
I think this embodies a lot about how I feel about how the new Sonic game looks - specifically Sonic Mania. I'm happy that it's being made and all so that some of the people who wanted a true Sonic 4 can have what they want, but at the same time, I'm also tired of supporting the notion that all a game company has to do in order to win over my money is just recycle old ideas and concepts from decades ago. I want new ones. I just hope this other Sonic game they're working on - which supposedly has nothing to do with Sonic Generations at all despite the trailer - can be a step in a new direction. But not like a Sonic Boom direction. (Read as: But not like a bad direction.)
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Bean » 10 months ago

They should've continued making 2D offerings the whole time they were doing the 3D stuff. They started out this route with Advance 1 by trying to emulate the Genesis games then did their own things with mixed results the rest of the way. I'm always glad Nintendo brought back 2D Mario with New Super Mario Bros., for instance, even though the last couple didn't have enough to differentiate them from the rest (dang ported music).

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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby warpio » 10 months ago

They have been continuing doing 2D on handhelds this whole time. But for some reason they keep letting Dimps do them. Dimps has just seemed to be getting worse and worse over time. Sonic 4 and Generations 3DS are awful. The Rush games and Colors DS are okay but not as good as the Advance games.

I'm glad that they're finally getting another developer besides Dimps to make a 2D Sonic game now. I haven't been this excited for a new 2D Sonic in forever.

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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Chrysanth » 10 months ago

warpio wrote:I'm glad that they're finally getting another developer besides Dimps to make a 2D Sonic game now. I haven't been this excited for a new 2D Sonic in forever.
That is the one thing that gives me some hope personally. Christian Whitehead did a fantastic job with the Sonic CD port - I should know, I've got all the achievements for it on my PS3 that's how much I loved it. He knows how to make these kinds of Sonic games really feel fun to play. It's going to be interesting to see what he can do with making his own game because as far as I know - he hasn't made his own games before? I don't know much about the guy besides his Sonic porting.
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Bean » 10 months ago

warpio wrote:They have been continuing doing 2D on handhelds this whole time.
True, but they stopped making original ones instead of handheld version of console game with Rush Adventure in 2007, and that so happens to be the last game of theirs I'd say was better than average. They've run their course by then, but I'd like to see some new blood take over and do some great things with 2D Sonic. Really, Dimps' first two games, Pocket Adventure and Advance 1, are the only ones that many would say are that.

That's why I'm excited for Sonic Mania like a lot of people are. 2D Sonic is just great when it gets it, and the people working on this new effort seem to get it.

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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Whimsical Calamari » 10 months ago

Chrysanth wrote:
warpio wrote:I'm glad that they're finally getting another developer besides Dimps to make a 2D Sonic game now. I haven't been this excited for a new 2D Sonic in forever.
That is the one thing that gives me some hope personally. Christian Whitehead did a fantastic job with the Sonic CD port
not to mention, stealth/Simon Thomley/Headcannon was a major contributor to Sonic Megamix, which made fantastic use of movement options for different characters in its level design. so i have faith that playing as tails or knuckles will be a bit more interesting than it was in 2 or even 3.
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Rockythechao » 10 months ago

ACesspoolofHatred wrote:One thing he missed is that PagodaWest Games is made up of people who once worked on the aborted Sonic 2 HD fan project.
For the record, they gave S2HD another go. Quite hyped for both that and Mania, cautiously optimistic for Project 2017.
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Chrysanth » 10 months ago

Whimsical Calamari wrote:not to mention, stealth/Simon Thomley/Headcannon was a major contributor to Sonic Megamix, which made fantastic use of movement options for different characters in its level design. so i have faith that playing as tails or knuckles will be a bit more interesting than it was in 2 or even 3.
I had no clue that Simon Thomley was going to be involved in this too. The one video I saw about Sonic Mania - I mean, nobody else in my subscriptions has really mentioned this game besides SomeCallMeJohnny, so it is what it is - only really mentioned Christian Whitehead as a name that I recognized. That's an interesting development right there. It would be nice if Tails and Knuckles got their own campaign sort of like in Sonic 3 & Knuckles - I'm assuming they confirmed that that is happening or is that just some fan speculation at work right there?
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Whimsical Calamari » 10 months ago

Chrysanth wrote:It would be nice if Tails and Knuckles got their own campaign sort of like in Sonic 3 & Knuckles - I'm assuming they confirmed that that is happening or is that just some fan speculation at work right there?
i don't know about fullly separate campaigns, but the reveal trailer claims Tails and Knuckles will be playable.
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Chrysanth » 10 months ago

Whimsical Calamari wrote:i don't know about fullly separate campaigns, but the reveal trailer claims Tails and Knuckles will be playable.
Well I guess I just didn't pay close enough attention to it then, thank you for pointing this out. I think it would be cool if they were given their own campaigns - again, like how it was in Sonic 3&K, I thought it was done well there. Having them playable though gives me a decent amount of reason to be optimistic about this game even more then. I wonder if this means they might look into adding some characters from other 2D Sonic games though. (Maybe the Chaotix if they're not dead yet.)
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Hollylolly » 10 months ago

Sonic Mania is a step in the right direction in my opinion. Generations wasn't what it's cracked up to be (it took colours' good level design and added the trademark bad, un intuitive level design people criticise sonic for) and while I liked Lost Worlds, it wasn't really a solid game. By going back to it's roots, sonic team can win back the hearts of their fans again (including me!) Plus, it's being made by people who have experience in fixing sonic team's mistakes. Megamix is arguably and in my opinion better than most 2D sonics and the ports of 2 and CD have much better engines.

On a less topical topic, I've been a fan of sonic since I was like eight, I've played the heckin' heck outta the 2D games, especially 3&K, CD and advance 3 (my three fav 2D sonic games) and I'm currently playing through both Unleashed and Colours. I'd have to say Colours is about the best modern sonic's ever gotten. I never feel like it's not my fault when I die in that game. I wish they'd kept with it's level design while making Generations.
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Bean » 10 months ago

Knuckles is the best by being the worst.

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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby ParmaJon » 7 months ago

not to just necropost, but they are apparently making a sonic movie. and its live action...

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-v ... ony-942661
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Bean » 7 months ago

Eh, I have nothing to go with on that one. It could be good, it could be terrible. I'm all about that Sonic Mania at this point. Every new piece of footage just makes it look sweet. The spritework in that game is very detailed.

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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Whimsical Calamari » 7 months ago

I have almost no faith in that movie, and very little in Project 2017, but yeah I'm definitely hype for Mania.
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Bean » 7 months ago

Happy Anniversary!

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Ten years old today.

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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Whimsical Calamari » 7 months ago

Bean wrote:Happy Anniversary!

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Ten years old today.
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby BobisOnlyBob » 7 months ago

I posted a huge rant for the Sonic 06 anniversary over on reddit. It originally wasn't meant to be its own thread, just a comment on an existing thread, but by the time I went to post it the original thread had been deleted, so I created the new one with my rant included. I'll repost it here too:

Sonic the Hedgehog (2006)
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Sonic the Hedgehog is a 2006 platform video game developed by Sonic Team and published by Sega for the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360. The game primarily allows the player to use Sonic, Shadow and Silver across several stages. Other secondary characters also become playable across the game. The plot follows Sonic's quest to protect Princess Elise after she is kidnapped by his rival Dr. Eggman and is aided by new and returning allies.

The game shares its name with two earlier Sonic games, a manga, a television series, a comic book series, and their eponymous main character. To disambiguate, the game has been referred to as Sonic 2006. It was produced in commemoration of the 15th anniversary of the Sonic the Hedgehog series. The game faced multiple issues during development, which resulted in rushing the product despite existing bugs. Both versions were heavily criticized for long loading times, poor camera system, gameplay glitches, complicated plot and sloppy character control.
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This is rather long, so if you're very familiar with the game and the popular reception of it, you might want to skip to the end and just share your own thoughts.

So I played this game sometime early last year, and I specifically went out of my way to borrow a copy from a coworker who'd picked it up for his kids and it had basically been hardly played. I'd seen the famous Pokecapn Posse LP and seen a bit of the Game Grumps' LP, but I had to know for myself if it was really bad as they all said it was. I forced myself through the entire thing, beginning to end, all three story-lines and the finale. The awful, awful finale. But that's getting ahead of myself.

So straight up, from the very beginning, the cutscenes are cringeworthy - introducing a female princess into the story in a horrible mashup between Mario and Final Fantasy in a setting of Not Quite Venice was an atrocious idea, and I'm going to put story mostly aside because it's absolutely incoherent garbage for the most part. I'm just going to say that as an enthusiast of time-travel fiction, the time travel in this game makes no fucking sense, is totally inconsistent, and the best thing about it is that the last major event of the game is Spoiler for it to erase itself from existence, the protagonists preventing the events of this game from ever happening. Seriously!

So once you're finally past the hurdle of the fiction, you have the actual game to contend with. Sonic games are - were? - generally known for their strong opening levels, but this one dumps you into a plaza with hilariously bad controls that have you zooming uncontrollably all over the place from awkward human NPC to NPC. Floating hints from a narrator shunt you around - you eventually figure out that to get to the first actual level, you need the Lightspeed Dash, a 3D sonic staple that lets you zoom along lines of rings to travel over dangerous terrain like instant-death water - an element that surrounds the entire main hub and will be a perpetual annoyance throughout the entire game. However, you don't have it, you need an item called a Light Chip to use it, which is sold by a random vendor. The nearby hint suggests that you can buy it "with the money". Money? Huh? The old man next to the store wants you to try out some shoes. You say yes, you get a long load time - and there's already been multiple long loading times just getting from cutscene to cutscene - so the old man can say one more line about testing his shoes, and then ANOTHER loading as it brings up an actual short mission. This is a recurring pattern throughout the game - loading an entire area for 20-30 seconds to play one line of non-voiced dialogue, and then loading an almost identical area for the actual gameplay content. It's an absolutely awful bit of design.

Your first mission is to run through the rings from Superman 64. I wish I was joking; they took the worst part of one of the worst games of all time and made it a recurring minigame, and then made it the very first piece of actual gameplay you experience. Beat that - and it ends extremely abruptly as you pass the last ring - and the game loads again, the old man congratulates you and gives you his "custom shoes", and then it loads again to finally bring you back to the hub. Now thanks to whatever letter-grade you received on the mission you have a whole bunch of rings you can use to buy the lightspeed dash - oh, that 'money' - to finally cross to the actual first level. Likely what will happen is you'll go to the long trail of rings, try to use it, and then fall into the water. Possibly more than once. It's temperamental and often sends you flying the wrong way. It's outright infuriating trying to play this game. To this you can add severe frame rate drops and stutters, often in the middle of action set-pieces or just moving around the town hubs.

The first level is actually okay - lots of set-piece loopdeloops, homing attacks, but you're likely to encounter a handful of the awful physics glitches. And don't die too many times, or you might learn the horrible truth - Sonic 2006 doesn't have autosaves. That means if, like most players, you haven't saved up until this point because the game hasn't prompted you to - you'll need to restart from the beginning again. All the cutscenes, all the loading times, the stupid ring mission, everything. That's easily 20-30 minutes, maybe shorter if you're lucky. The first level also contains the worst type of sublevel in the game - mach speed zones. These aren't a bad idea inherently, but their implementation is shockingly awful - Sonic automatically runs forward at a fixed high speed, and all you can control is his bearing and jumps. These go so fast and pop-in is so bad you're likely to collide with anything and everything, and EVERYTHING does damage, losing all your rings, be is a solid surface or the fence you're trying to run alongside. You can easily burn through your limited lives here, and even if you pick one up, it doesn't respawn each time you die - a conscious decision by the developers as no other pickup acts this way.

So eventually, you beat the first level. Your payoff? "Damn, the bad guy got away. We should go back to the city and look for clues". That's right, the entire level was narratively pointless - it feels like the area was built totally independently from any sort of framework and just thrown in there. And that's how they introduce you to the game. Most of the game proceeds in this manner - villain spotted in an area, do trivial challenges in the hub to unlock the warp to the area, do the stage, make little to no meaningful impact on anything, come back. Even when you do progress the plot, it often feels entirely unrelated to your actions and that's true in all three characters' stages.

Now at this point I'm gonna take a break to praise a few things. This game has great music. I mean seriously, I put some of it into my regular playlists, it's genuinely and unironically great. Some stages are almost actually enjoyable in and of themselves. I particularly enjoyed Radical Train, although I think being familiar with it from the Posse LP helped a lot. The boss designs aren't great but they're relatively enjoyable to overcome compared to the levels themselves. There's a lot of interesting ideas in each level, things that mix it up, and the secondary characters you sometimes necessarily switch to have interesting mechanics - although some of them feel rushed or badly thought out, especially Tails' flight and Fake Ring Bombs. The wall-crawling and gliding mechanics in particular are genuinely fun, but still suffer from glitches catching onto or being unable to jump from surfaces. Silver as a character is interesting - while not as fast as the other two playable hedgehogs, he works with physics objects, basically being a living gravity gun and solving physics puzzles - which tend to glitch out, too. Good ideas like a "golf" puzzle moving a ball around with limited hits descend into frothing madness due to the unreliable and buggy counter/timer.

I think that's the biggest issue the game has - everything is badly unpolished. If you cut down the story massively and gave the team another six months, I think this game actually had the potential to be fun. Some things like Sonic's special gauge are outright unfinished. The whole game literally feels worse than the sum of its parts, because every issue impinges on the enjoyment of something else - the moment you find something good, you'll be hampered by the bad/squeaky voice acting, the frame rate drops, the physics issues, the terrible narrative, or using up all your lives on a nonsensical hazard. If this wasn't bad enough, you have to replay the whole game three times - every stage must be done once as each of the three main characters, and some stages have to be played partially again as a secondary character like Amy or Blaze. Survive all that and get all three endings, and you'll unlock the true ending, the finale.

The finale epitomizes all these issues, a little recap and encapsulation of everything that is wrong with Sonic 2006. In the second dumbest cutscene, Sonic is outright murdered by Shadow Satan and the princess cries, unleashing the sealed evil that is the fiery other half of Super Solar Satan. Then you have to play 7 short stages, reprising the worst parts of many levels throughout the game, as the two living hedgehogs and 5 side characters, using all of their gimmicks and glitches. During this, two new instant-kill enemy types appear and throw the physics engine's worst at you, on top of the instant-kill platforming. Lose all your lives on any one of these 7 stages - each with their own long loading times - and you have to go back to the beginning of this whole process. Your reward for beating these is the single dumbest cutscene in the game, Sonic resurrected, followed by an awkward an inexplicable boss fight using unintuitive and barely explained flight mechanics and a set of timers you can basically ignore provided you remember to switch character, in a throwback to Sonic 3 & Knuckles' Doomsday Zone but without the tension, brilliance, or a fraction of the feeling of intensity (it does have pretty good music, though).

It took me a week or two to play through it all. It was, in all honestly, not a good game - it was extremely bad - but the experience taught me a few things. It taught me that there was in fact a good game struggling to be expressed under all the awfulness. It taught me that rushed production for christmas is absolutely always a terrible idea and cannot be justified, and even if you do you should never stake your entire brand identity on the result. But the main thing I walked away from it with was the knowledge that Sonic 2006 is certainly not the worst game of all time, but it's probably one of the most noteworthy in its multitude of failings. It's a perfect case study in how to not make and design and assemble a triple-A game for the console market, how not to use and manage your characters and premier license, and how not to tutorialise gameplay, and many many, many, many other lessons learnable.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I feel like I've finally gotten my thoughts on this game off my chest. For some additional context, I grew up playing the Sega Mega Drive (Genesis), in particular Sonic 1-3, and had already played and absolutely loved Sonic Generations by the time I played Sonic 2006, although I was never a fan of the early 3D Sonics on the Dreamcast/Gamecube.

Some question prompts:

What was your experience of this game?

Did you play it when it came out, or when you were young? How does that colour your experience of it?

What is your relationship with the Sonic franchise?

What could have been done to salvage the game, if anything?


I recommend checking the thread out too since most of the comments on it were pretty good and gave a well-rounded assessment of the infamous installment.
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Bean » 7 months ago

I read through that thread. It's amazing how much emotion this thing brings out, but it really was a disaster in just about every way, especially coming off of two okay but flawed games to me in SA2 Battle and Heroes.

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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby CrappyBlueLuigi » 7 months ago

oh hey, there's a sonic thread!

another game celebrated its anniversary a couple of days ago...

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on a more relevant note, it just occured to me the other day that it's still a 4-or-so-month wait until sonic mania comes out... i don't know if i can hold out that long. i need sonic mania in my life. i need that soundtrack
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Re: Sonic the Threadgehog

Postby Bean » 7 months ago

It's amazing how there's practically no hype for the Sonic Team game, but then again, I think most fans of the series know by now not to trust the first trailers at this point. I'm more excited for the Mario stuff I saw in the Switch preview video, and that look was only for a few seconds!


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