pholtos' Rando Pokemon Tourney III - Nearing the End

[bbbrrr_it_cold]

Warning: long and potentially incoherent ramblings ahead.

From what I've seen (and I haven't watched all the matches, but I have watched most), there are pokémon that were difficult for certain teams to deal with but nothing that would have been truly insurmountable. Sometimes it came down to picking the right team, in that sense, and having a three-round match means that if something wrecks you first round, you may have a better idea how to deal with it for the future. As an example, there are some pokémon that were fast and hit hard but were rather frail. In theory, you'd want a priority move or something faster to revenge kill them, but that wasn't something every team had access to (or something the player saved for the occasion). And that's just how a format like this works. Or maybe it would be a pokémon the the belly drum Slurpuff that could wreck certain teams once any potential counters are gone (or if there aren't any on that team). On the reverse side, some of the more defensive pokémon could wall entire teams after a certain point, so if you knew that was possible you'd need to save the right pokémon for it. That is on the player's end - something they have to account for, like they would in any competitive match.

My biggest issue seemed to be that sometimes my teams just wouldn't work together. One round I got two pokémon with rain dance with no water moves to be boosted, no abilities to take advantage of the rain and only one pokémon who really could use fire being weakened. On another team I got two pokémon with the exact same coverage and similar enough sets/team roles that left that team with a gaping hole in both offense and defense (and that was a round where all three of the opposing teams could have taken advantage of the defensive gap).
But none of those deal with any specific pokémon and they all are just part of this format - I find myself being unable to complain too much, since I wasn't required to choose either team. I think I found myself getting more offensive pokémon than defensive, but I saw a lot of defensive pokémon and I had my share of them too.

I guess the only thing I would say really didn't work are pokémon that are meant to work on specific teams. I know for some pokémon, that's just about the only option. The team I had with the two rain dancers sticks out in my mind because one of them was to be support on a rain dance team and the other would have been a rain dance lead and they'd be fine on a team built around that. But in a tourney like this, you're either lucky and they help you out or they just become another meat shield.
I'm having similar troubles in making my custom team for the stipulation league - it is technically done, but I don't like it. It has problems. And I am terrified that I'll wind up in the first few fights with pokémon that can't form a cohesive 3 or 4 pokémon team. I had to move away from certain strategies I might have favored or certain pokémon I might have liked to try and reach something more balanced that can function with just a few members.

Maybe for the next one, just take out certain pokémon that just aren't viable in the slightest or only fit on certain teams and perhaps, instead, make a second set for certain pokémon that can support it. I know much earlier someone was complaining about a Chesnaught not having a secondary STAB attack because it was running a more focused defensive set. If you really want to balance out the numbers of available pokémon, maybe take ones like that and give them two very different sets.
I mean, then the question would be how do you pick which ones get different sets and what sets to use, so maybe this is terrible advice. But, in either case, that is my thoughts on the sets.

In any case, congrats to all the victors and I hope have as much fun next round.

[sedron]

Warning: long and potentially incoherent ramblings ahead.

From what I've seen (and I haven't watched all the matches, but I have watched most), there are pokémon that were difficult for certain teams to deal with but nothing that would have been truly insurmountable. Sometimes it came down to picking the right team, in that sense, and having a three-round match means that if something wrecks you first round, you may have a better idea how to deal with it for the future. As an example, there are some pokémon that were fast and hit hard but were rather frail. In theory, you'd want a priority move or something faster to revenge kill them, but that wasn't something every team had access to (or something the player saved for the occasion). And that's just how a format like this works. Or maybe it would be a pokémon the the belly drum Slurpuff that could wreck certain teams once any potential counters are gone (or if there aren't any on that team). On the reverse side, some of the more defensive pokémon could wall entire teams after a certain point, so if you knew that was possible you'd need to save the right pokémon for it. That is on the player's end - something they have to account for, like they would in any competitive match.

My biggest issue seemed to be that sometimes my teams just wouldn't work together. One round I got two pokémon with rain dance with no water moves to be boosted, no abilities to take advantage of the rain and only one pokémon who really could use fire being weakened. On another team I got two pokémon with the exact same coverage and similar enough sets/team roles that left that team with a gaping hole in both offense and defense (and that was a round where all three of the opposing teams could have taken advantage of the defensive gap).
But none of those deal with any specific pokémon and they all are just part of this format - I find myself being unable to complain too much, since I wasn't required to choose either team. I think I found myself getting more offensive pokémon than defensive, but I saw a lot of defensive pokémon and I had my share of them too.

I guess the only thing I would say really didn't work are pokémon that are meant to work on specific teams. I know for some pokémon, that's just about the only option. The team I had with the two rain dancers sticks out in my mind because one of them was to be support on a rain dance team and the other would have been a rain dance lead and they'd be fine on a team built around that. But in a tourney like this, you're either lucky and they help you out or they just become another meat shield.
I'm having similar troubles in making my custom team for the stipulation league - it is technically done, but I don't like it. It has problems. And I am terrified that I'll wind up in the first few fights with pokémon that can't form a cohesive 3 or 4 pokémon team. I had to move away from certain strategies I might have favored or certain pokémon I might have liked to try and reach something more balanced that can function with just a few members.

Maybe for the next one, just take out certain pokémon that just aren't viable in the slightest or only fit on certain teams and perhaps, instead, make a second set for certain pokémon that can support it. I know much earlier someone was complaining about a Chesnaught not having a secondary STAB attack because it was running a more focused defensive set. If you really want to balance out the numbers of available pokémon, maybe take ones like that and give them two very different sets.
I mean, then the question would be how do you pick which ones get different sets and what sets to use, so maybe this is terrible advice. But, in either case, that is my thoughts on the sets.

In any case, congrats to all the victors and I hope have as much fun next round.

A couple of things.

1) We are likely changing up the way team selection works for next tourney. Instead of getting 3 random teams, you get a selection of, say, 12 mons to make a team from, each with predetermined movesets. This is intended to help with making more synergistic teams and to help ensure players can find answers to their opponent's mons.

2) Regarding secondary STABs, I'd rather not be constricted to having every mon with two types being obligated to run a STAB for each type. Some sets just don't call for it, like the Chesnaught set. Since you guys see the sets before you choose them, I should hope that kind of thing is taken into account.

3) I'm iffy on making secondary sets, mainly because it's a big time investment on my end and I don't necessarily have a lot of time to give at the moment. Editing sets for balance reasons will already take a lot of time. I don't think I'm against it from a gameplay standpoint though. We'll see, I suppose.

4) I'd rather not remove mons for not being viable if I can help it. The only mon that I believe literally cannot gain any more buffs is Unown, as I think it's max leveled. We could remove Unown, but the others can get level buffs that might make them less crappy. =P

[cheez8]

1) What was too powerful?

Quiver Dance.

(After getting totally bodied in the first two rounds I don't really have enough experience to provide actual thought-out feedback... But the fact that rando and I agreed on a ceasefire specifically for Quiver Dance was kind of silly.)

[Kuupa]

What was too powerful?

Bird Part 2 (Swellow) (F) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
Level: 86
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Quick Attack

So with Guts + STAB + Toxic Orb, Facade has a base power of 315, and max speed jolly Swellow has a speed stat of 330. Barring any sort of protect/fake out/other priority, there wasn't much (in my experience) that could really get in at this to touch it or even stall it in its own toxic. In my matches against bbbrrr, it felt to me that whenever I brought this monster out, at least one mon on bbbrrr's team was going to get dropped on its neck.

What just didn't work?

v1.0.6 Patch (Pachirisu) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
Level: 86
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Nuzzle
- Toxic
- Super Fang

I'm not sure I totally agree with Pachi's EV spread. Max attack + speed seems a bit overkill, when it's only relatively useful attacking move is U-Turn. Looking at the moves, this seems to be more of a check to opposing threats (Super Fang+Toxic for stall, Nuzzle to shut down faster sweeps, U-Turn for a pivot on a switch-in), rather than being a threat itself.

[Minnakht]

In general, an entire category of Pokemon I'd be wary of is these with both good speed and one attacking stat - doesn't matter which. It's exactly for this reason that aggressive mons are good on stats - they only have one side they have to focus on, so the other attack is a dump stat. But that's beside the point.
If a mon has only one of these two - good attack or good speed - then there are ways of dealing with them. Both is bad.

Sawsbuck has STAB Double-Edge, if I'm not mistaken, and has 100 attack and 95 speed. It also gets Jump Kick. Rock and Steel resist Normal but are hit SE by Fighting (this is why Lopunny is so good). And it also has Swords Dance. At this point, it can knock out most of everything, so what you want to do is just be faster than it and OHKO it, which is certainly doable. If you happen to have something that outspeeds base 95 speed after level adjustment that comes from Sawsbuck being NU or whatever it is due to existence of Talonflame which keeps it out of being good by clicking Brave Birb. We're playing Limited here while tiers are based on usage in Constructed.

(hey, how about a tournament where we draft mons?)

For this reason, if you ask what there could be more of, I'd say "Choice Scarf". Getting Scarfers means you suddenly get mons which can outspeed runaway threats like that, and at the same time, as they become locked into a move, it makes for more usefulness of defensive mons as you know what move they'll hit with next and can switch in something appropriate.

Clawitzer could be a Scarfer. You might ask "scarf on base 59 speed, what", but it actually brings it to enough speed to outspeed Sawsbuck and OHKO it with Aura Sphere (or mostly with Ice Beam). And it has enough power to not need a Life Orb.
(actually nevermind it doesn't outspeed if they're not equal level. darn. cursed level adjustment.)

I don't think it's possible to add much more priority than you've already added, but I do believe that it's really the mons which either are fast and offensive or can become so with boosts that make the most impact and thus can make people feel hopeless.

Like in this match: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-272839514

[sedron]

Quiver Dance.

Anyone have more replays with QD mons? I'd like some more info to work on for this.

This is a bit tricky. Both of your teams were very ill-equipped to actually handle a Quiver Dancer. Half of Cheez's team was weak to Bug, with another mon being weak to a coverage move and Zebstrika being frail in general. There didn't appear to be any priority options or anything of the sort either, and the mon best equipped to handle Butterfree got Sleep Powdered right away. Lilligant's Grass/Fire coverage is realistically pretty poor, but Rando's team was mostly frail or weak to it (again, the mon that best handles the issue, Clefable, was asleep.)

It looks to me like the teams were just extraordinarily unprepared for the two QD mons, but I'll definitely keep an eye on this.

Swellow. In my matches against bbbrrr, it felt to me that whenever I brought this monster out, at least one mon on bbbrrr's team was going to get dropped on its neck.

Pachirisu is bad.

Again, I'd like to see more replays involving Swellow before making a concrete decision, and in these replays bbbrrr's team just wasn't particularly built to handle it. Rock-types resist all of Swellow's moves, for example. One of the other teams bbbrrr received may have been a better choice, but I'm not super certain. I'm not 100% against nerfing Swellow a level or two though, if it comes down to it.

As for Pachirisu, that's one of those mons that just isn't going to be particularly fantastic no matter what I do with it. A slight buff may make it more usable though. You make a good point about the EV spread. I'd be fine dumping the Attack EV's into Def or SpDef instead (though realistically speaking this won't change too much for the poor thing.)

In general, an entire category of Pokemon I'd be wary of is these with both good speed and one attacking stat - doesn't matter which.

...if you ask what there could be more of, I'd say "Choice Scarf".

I don't think it's possible to add much more priority than you've already added, but I do believe that it's really the mons which either are fast and offensive or can become so with boosts that make the most impact and thus can make people feel hopeless.

Like in this match: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-272839514

More scarves seems reasonable. Gotta see what'll work but it seems like a good way to answer setup sweepers. If I end up making extra sets for some mons this will be an easy addition.

Just as an aside, though, I think that Magcargo had an option to ruin Scrafty's day. Just as an FYI.

[cheez8]

It looks to me like the teams were just extraordinarily unprepared for the two QD mons

Haha, that's entirely possible and I wasn't even super-serious in bringing it up since it's way too much of a blanket statement to call the move OP entirely. It's more that the Quiver Dance round was really the only thing within memory that stood out as unbalanced.

[bbbrrr_it_cold]

One of the other teams bbbrrr received may have been a better choice, but I'm not super certain.

One of my other teams had a Rhyperior. I wasn't super worried about the Swellow (which, in retrospect, seems dumb) but I picked the team I did for the general coverage it had. I don't remember exactly what it was that I didn't like about the other team, but there was something that didn't sit right. Maybe I thought Kuupa would use a different team? I honestly don't remember.

Just as an aside, though, I think that Magcargo had an option to ruin Scrafty's day. Just as an FYI.

Yes, yes it did. I had been hoping for a burn with Lava Plume (even though I should have known the Scrafty was Shed Skin since I would have seen either of the other abilities activate), but the Magcargo had Memento and I should have gone for that earlier. On the other hand, I remember being surprised that it had survived the first attack immediately wishing I had used a different move. I think the Scrafty was fine - I just handled it badly. But, then again, I believe I explained after the fight that I had been expecting to fight a different team and was just not prepared for the Scrafty. And, incidentally, I had a scarfer and it just wasn't fast enough. That was part of my reason for picking the team too.

[Minnakht]

It was fast enough when I only clicked Dragon Dance once in match 3. Said Seviper could also possibly stop a Sawsbuck.

[GlitchedGhost]

Is it way too early to say that I'd like to join the next tourney?

[Dog In Da Grass]

I'd like to join too!

[pholtos]

Pfft. All right, I set up the next tourney and added you both. I'm still pondering about userbars for this tourney, may just go for hoenn something, I dunno. Was thinking of like doing unique quotes for everyone but that seems overly tough.

[GlitchedGhost]

Pfft. All right, I set up the next tourney and added you both. I'm still pondering about userbars for this tourney, may just go for hoenn something, I dunno. Was thinking of like doing unique quotes for everyone but that seems overly tough.

That definitely seems like a lot of work. I'm cool with how you had them the last round, with the badges and whatnot.

[Zygl]

Quiver Dance.

Anyone have more replays with QD mons? I'd like some more info to work on for this.

My round 1 matches against Solaris consisted of me Baton-Passing Quiver Dances onto a Probopass and sweeping their mons, but I mostly got away with that through odd plays, abusing the lack of sleep clause in round 1, and Probopass having good coverage against like 2/3 of their team so that doesn't exactly mean a whole lot, I don't think.

[Wolfolotl]

suggestion: for balancing purposes, don't put the choice item that increases speed onto a pokemon with already phenomenal speed because then they will literally sweep your party even if you have something with like 380 speed

[sedron]

Quiver Dance.

Anyone have more replays with QD mons? I'd like some more info to work on for this.

My round 1 matches against Solaris consisted of me Baton-Passing Quiver Dances onto a Probopass and sweeping their mons, but I mostly got away with that through odd plays, abusing the lack of sleep clause in round 1, and Probopass having good coverage against like 2/3 of their team so that doesn't exactly mean a whole lot, I don't think.

I'm also inclined to chalk that up more to plays and lack of Sleep Clause, but I'll note it anyway.

suggestion: for balancing purposes, don't put the choice item that increases speed onto a pokemon with already phenomenal speed because then they will literally sweep your party even if you have something with like 380 speed

That's definitely wrong. There are two things that balance this. Mons with naturally high speed are usually lacking in either their offenses or bulk. If it's the former, they're likely not sweeping anything because they're not strong enough to do it. In the latter case, they are still vulnerable to priority. You also have the choice-locking aspect of the item. They'd have to be locked into a move that's effective against the entire team to have a chance at just sweeping outright.

[Wolfolotl]

this chandelure had over 400 speed

[Kuupa]

They'd have to be locked into a move that's effective against the entire team to have a chance at just sweeping outright.

*cough**cough*

[sedron]

this chandelure had over 400 speed

A) Chandelure isn't fast to begin with. It's base 80.

B) You chose a team that is inherently very weak to Fire. Granted, the new team-picking system will hopefully make it so that you'll generally end up with more diverse teams, and as such we won't see as many of these teams with gaping holes in their defenses.

C) To be totally fair, you shouldn't have tried to set up Nasty Plot on a mon with two SE STABs. Lovely Kiss was the correct move there. Even if you're operating under the assumption that you outspeed, it would be best to try and sleep Chandelure so you can keep your Focus Sash intact. Taking the possibility of a Scarf into account, Jynx clearly loses if that's the case and you try to set up. Risk minimization is very important.

*cough**cough*

Again, you had a team with a glaring weakness (in this case, that's 5/6 mons weak to Rock.) As I said earlier, the new team-picking system should make those situations much less likely. I can't chalk that up as a fault of the set, though.

Speaking of the new team-picking system, the more I think about it the more 12 mons to choose from seems like too low a number. Maybe 16 is more reasonable? I think I detailed how the system would work earlier in the thread.

[Wolfolotl]

it's still too much speed? like please acknowledge that this was a ridiculously fast chandelure that outsped even the pokemon that I had that were GEARED towards speed

also 80 base speed is a higher-than-average amount of speed. so no, it is pretty fast in general

[bbbrrr_it_cold]

it's still too much speed? like please acknowledge that this was a ridiculously fast chandelure that outsped even the pokemon that I had that were GEARED towards speed

also 80 base speed is a higher-than-average amount of speed. so no, it is pretty fast in general

Actually, base 80 is rather low, all things considered. Like, maybe above average when talking about all pokémon, but when talking about fast pokémon and "good" speed tiers, it is pretty slow.
And you're talking about a pokémon weak to both Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet. Many pokémon can switch into the STABs of Chandelure fairly well anyway, since it is choiced, and force it out, potentially even smashing it with Pursuit. Maybe your specific team had issues with it, but that doesn't make the pokémon itself overpowered, especially since you did have a Sucker Punch user on your team (and a Crawdaunt, but I admittedly don't know what that would have run, even though I expect it would have had Aqua Jet).

[Kuupa]

Again, you had a team with a glaring weakness

At the end of the day, the glaring weakness was flinching :[

[sedron]

it's still too much speed? like please acknowledge that this was a ridiculously fast chandelure that outsped even the pokemon that I had that were GEARED towards speed

also 80 base speed is a higher-than-average amount of speed. so no, it is pretty fast in general

According to Bulbapedia, the average base speed stat for fully evolved Pokemon is 78, which would put Chandelure very, very slightly above average. I don't know exactly how they handled megas and formes though, so it's possible that number is off by some metric. As Bbbrrr said, it's certainly not good by more competitive standards. Granted, we're working with a much larger pool of mons than you'd normally see on, say, the OU ladder, so it's going to outspeed more things.

When you add a Choice Scarf to the mix, yes, it is pretty fast. Thing is, that's the point. If it weren't fast with a Scarf, it wouldn't be able to do its primary job, which is revenge killing. It's supposed to come in generally after a teammate has fallen to a set-up sweeper or something of that nature, and near-guarantee that it can outspeed while doing enough damage to KO the opposing mon (assuming it's taken prior damage or is weak to a move.)

Now, I don't perfectly remember the contents of the replay, and Showdown doesn't appear to want me to watch it again, but I don't think you had anything particularly fast (to the point where most of your team would be outsped by a much slower Scarfed mon,) and even though Chandelure was taking chunks out of most everything, it still wasn't OHKOing everything or something ridiculous like that.

Again, I think you just had a poor matchup. The new team-making system should alleviate these situations.