raocow's talkhaus

Bwarch wrote:Combat sure, Zelda combat has always been pree simple, sadly enough.

But as for maps and exploration wouldn't Wind Waker and LTTP stand as just very much better? Always kinda despised Zelda 1's hidden caves and arbitrary puzzles, which they improved upon and fixed in later editions of the series so that things weren't so janky to figure out. Even just map design LTTP is so much better than Zelda 1. We're talking like if somebody said Super Mario Bros was better than Super Mario World I'm feelin' here in this.

Even combat I feel definitely got more interesting down the line. Harder? Maybe not, but at least it engaged you in more ways than Zelda 1 did. It was the starter, the original, legendary for what it did but just vastly improved upon by this point.

I could agree with you on some things, maybe, up until LttP. After that, nope. Combat is not interesting in any way in the new ones: they all boil down to hitting a weak point for massive damage, be it jump attack - flip out - repeat, or bounce back things with your shield, or whatever. There's nothing where it's a question of skill, just a question of knowledge.

And there is virtually nothing in the original that is arbitrary. The game came with a map showing you where the first four dungeons and most secret caves are, and how to solve every puzzle. Here it is: http://skoce.files.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... _front.jpg It expects you to use it.

To me the comparison isn't like asking whether SMB is better or worse than SMW, but asking whether it's better or worse than Super Paper Mario.

Well now I definitely need a 3DS. Majora's Mask is my favorite 3D zelda, and I'd say by far the best as well. The masks completely change the way combat and movement works make it so that the combat doesn't be come a drag, the time gimmick perfectly keeps up the pace and there's sidequests all over the place which are the best exploration in a 3D zelda you'll ever get. And they don't get tedious either because of the notebook timelines. On top of that, it has some of my favorite/the best dungeons in a 3D zelda (yes, I even like great bay temple). Not a single puzzle felt too obvious or obscure in a dumb way. And the plot and atmosphere are also amazing.

If you judge the time gimmick based on a let's play you've seen, you're not doing it justice. Sure, it's possible that you just can't get into it, but it's not as bad as it looks. I used to think it was terrible, until I played it myself. It's actually really lenient (if you remember to slow down time right away), and only twice did I have to redo major things because I wasn't fast enough, and it did feel like it was my own fault.

Besides Majora's Mask, the 3D zeldas are pretty lame in terms of exploration, because of how linear they are and the given directions they shove down your throat. Especially OoT feels like a dumbed down version of Link to the Past. It tries to do everything LTTP did, but the overworld is nothing but a plain of grass with a few skulltulla's you really don't need or want. Even the smaller portions of outside land like death mountain, zora's domain, lake hylia and gerudo desert are for not much more than passing through. Because of this the travelling between points of progression feels even more like downtime than it did in Wind Waker. And the combat is, though forgiven because it's the first 3D game, kinda broken. And because it was a "Whohohoah we have 3D now!" game, there's all the cinematics and cutscenes that are just a test of patience and much longer than they need to be (though I do approve of king zora moving his ass), and in the end do nothing but make the game drag on even more.

Twilight Princess very much improves on the OoT formula, though the overworld is still pretty empty (at least navigation and combat are satisfying for a while), but it does many things right to make the world feel like a world. Playing as a wolf in itself is alot of fun, the problem is that they put the biggest instance of padding in the wolf segments. The tear collecting adds to the plot and atmosphere at first, but it's extremely dragged out. And movement as a wolf could've been much better if they had made it like platforming, instead of midna jumps that require you to just press A over and over.

Wind Waker is a good game based on islands and dungeons, but I really don't like some of the item mechanics and the sailing is just...just no. And don't even get me started on Skyward Sword.

I loved Majora's Mask as a kid, so for me it's purely nostalgia. I actually like MM better than OoT. If you ask me for a concrete reason I will look at you and shrug.

(That said, Wind Waker is mechanically better, it's just plagued with sailing. Twilight Princess is awesome-looking but samey, and I've never played past TP. The 2D Zeldas are my thing)

The thing with most Zeldas beyond some of LTTP and pretty much every boss afterwards is that the boss either has a glowing weakpoint or is weak to the thing you got in the dungeon... or both. Do you realize how annoying it is to ALREADY know the boss's weakness halfway through a dungeon? It's like, oh ok I got a bow, guess the boss is weak to the bow.

Thankfully Link Between Worlds didn't do this.

Part of the reason why I like Majora's Mask is because it doesn't do that - you are given multiple ways to tackle the bosses. Want to take potshots at it? Want to rush it down with your mask transformations? Want to swordfight it like a man? The game lets you do all of these as you see fit. The bosses also don't have any real weak points, so you can't really cheese any of the fights until you get some post-temple stuff, which leads into another aspect I like: the bosses can be re-fought with your new equipment. You even get a little warp pad at the start of the dungeon to warp straight to it, which is encouraged for some of the side-quests.

Except Goht. You're kinda pigeonholed into fighting Goht one specific way.

raekuul wrote:Except Goht. You're kinda pigeonholed into fighting Goht one specific way.

[spoiler]No[/spoiler]

I liked the citizens of Termina. The despair in everybody feels real. And then there is Mikau and his, erm, 'introduction'. Saddest moment I have ever played in a game.

OHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMANOHMAN

HOW LONG HAVE WE WAITED FOR THIS?!?!?! *faints*




Uh I mean, I'm glad they decided to do this.

It was just a matter of a fucking long time.

Anyone else think the moon looks a lot creepier now?

that legit spooped me for a sec there lol

Personally I think he just looks goofier what with his teeth and big nose.

I was always 'meh' about the time gimmick in MM since I would always have to restart a section whenever time ran out. This was before I knew about slowing down time and whatnot. It was always a bit tedious and stressful for me trying to figure out and keep track of all the side-quests and such while you're on a time limit. My only attempt of trying to play the game just made me frustrated and stop because of all the things I didn't know how to do until later and then having to do them over again (or wait for side-quests) since I ran out of time making it super tedious for me.

The atmosphere in the game is pretty great though

Jesuiscontent wrote:

raekuul wrote:Except Goht. You're kinda pigeonholed into fighting Goht one specific way.

[spoiler]No[/spoiler]

I must try that.

Bwarch wrote:Combat sure, Zelda combat has always been pree simple, sadly enough.

But as for maps and exploration wouldn't Wind Waker and LTTP stand as just very much better? Always kinda despised Zelda 1's hidden caves and arbitrary puzzles, which they improved upon and fixed in later editions of the series so that things weren't so janky to figure out. Even just map design LTTP is so much better than Zelda 1. We're talking like if somebody said Super Mario Bros was better than Super Mario World I'm feelin' here in this.

Even combat I feel definitely got more interesting down the line. Harder? Maybe not, but at least it engaged you in more ways than Zelda 1 did. It was the starter, the original, legendary for what it did but just vastly improved upon by this point.

See, combat was never simple in Zelda 1. Every game after Zelda 2 tried to dumb it down but hide it behind more "stuff." But Zelda 1 was the zenith of Zelda combat. Its triumphs include:

1) Swarms of enemies. Screens can be filled with enemies trying to murder your face, and they won't come at you one at a time all polite like.

2) Link's sword only stabs. Every overhead Zelda after this one would opt to give Link a slash attack instead. The stab motion makes it much more important to line yourself up with enemies, and much harder to fend off foes coming from odd directions (like the Keese).

3) Enemies murder your health. It's very easy to die, which makes potions super important in later dungeons (as well as the armour upgrades). Please note that the game never feels unfair in this respect; you're free to upgrade yourself to keep up with the stronger enemies. You know, like in an RPG.

4) Most weapons have combat purpose. Not just a "this guy is immune to everything else" purpose, but a legitimate strategic purpose. Bombs can be used to ambush groups of enemies or attack Darknuts without risking your health. Arrows (and the Magic Rod) allow you to fight from across the room without full health. The Boomerang sets you up for melee combat, as well as for dealing with Keese. Even the ladder thingy lets you get an advantageous position in combat. Yes, you can do these things in other Zeldas, but why would you bother when the enemies do pitiful damage, attack in small numbers, and your sword covers a wide arc? This has become a particular problem in 3D Zeldas, where the awkwardness of 3D combat hasn't been accounted for in how the combat flows.

5) The bosses were out to kill you. 3D Zeldas are obsessed with puzzle combat, where you figure out the trick and your golden. This is probably the one area where LttP really gives LoZ a run for its money, thanks to a host of awesome bosses (LA also has some cool bosses, albeit overly easy).

Now I'm willing to slide on exploration. The "figure it out dummy" nature of finding stuff isn't for everyone, especially when the game doesn't even hint at half of it. I personally enjoy it, but I can't argue that its necessarily better then what came after it. The games biggest advantage is that when you do find things, you feel like you found them yourself, rather than following the yellow brick road (which is one of my biggest complaints against OoT, which constantly guides you from dungeon to dungeon).

But combat? Not even close. Zelda 1 has yet to be topped, and bloating combat with uneccessary moves or useless inventory items won't do a thing to change my mind on that. Not that it can't be topped (it absolutely could in about a million different ways), but Nintendo either tries to mimic the 2D games in the 3D worlds (which doesn't work) or dumbs things down to the point of combat being window dressing for the rest of the Zelda experience. WW is probably the best the series has done in terms of 3D combat, featuring the best "dueling" in the series (Z-Target combat) and a really good feel to your blows (the punctuated music helps alot).

tl;dr: I'll probably buy MM 3D in spite of my better judgement.

I'd just like to say that doing a 3D Zelda in the style of the first two (more specifically, in the style of Zelda 2) has already been done quite a few times. It's just called the Elder Scrolls series. Except for the two that were called Dark Souls.

Now, having enemies swarm you in the 3D games wouldn't work. Imagine fighting 2 or 3 Stalfos Knights in Ocarina, all that have full agro? That sound frustrating to me. That's why others will back off when you Z target on the one you want to focus on.

Go play Hyrule Warriors if you want. Facing a group of Lizalfos/Gibdos can be dangerous.

Sebby19 wrote:Now, having enemies swarm you in the 3D games wouldn't work. Imagine fighting 2 or 3 Stalfos Knights in Ocarina, all that have full agro? That sound frustrating to me. That's why others will back off when you Z target on the one you want to focus on.

Out of curiosity have you ever attempted one of the trials-type things in say windwaker or twilight princess? The ones with multiple floors and all that?

Sebby19 wrote:Now, having enemies swarm you in the 3D games wouldn't work. Imagine fighting 2 or 3 Stalfos Knights in Ocarina, all that have full agro? That sound frustrating to me. That's why others will back off when you Z target on the one you want to focus on.

If by "frustrating" you mean "not beatable by everyone in the world on their first try" then yes, I suppose it would be.

You know... I would actually welcome multiple enemies attacking at the same time all over the place in future 3D Zeldas. You know what that'd do for it? Make it challenging. Zelda's by nature have been too easy for many years at this point. You know what causes me the most health loss in 3D Zeldas? The platforming. The combat in it's current form is an absolute joke, with the biggest problem being the creation of z-targeting, even though it might have been a necessary update for 3D Zeldas, at the same time it's its biggest curse.

pholtos wrote:You know... I would actually welcome multiple enemies attacking at the same time all over the place in future 3D Zeldas. You know what that'd do for it? Make it challenging.

Nintendo of today make something on a popular franchise of theirs actually challenging? Oh l-o-l Pholtos, you optimistic goof you~

(3D World's postgame was pree challenging but other than that...)

I admit to having lost more health to enemies attacking in tandem more than anything else simply because I never expect them to attack in tandem due to these game mechanics, and to me that's where most of the challenge from the old Zelda games came from. I wouldn't mind a 3D Zelda title where the enemies were more relentless. Wind Waker did a bit better with this, but the trade-off was that all the enemies were so ploddingly slow that it was rendered a moot point. If they do decide to make a Master Quest for MM, having more enemies and having them be more aggressive would be pretty damn baller.

I also can't stand puzzle bosses. It's hard to see them as a boss enemy instead of just another lethal puzzle, just dressed up a little. This is another reason I liked Majora's Mask: the bosses were actually bosses that didn't use puzzle stuff to try and kill you, they just had at you right away. It's entirely possible to die to the first boss if your combat skills are lacking.

raekuul wrote:Except Goht. You're kinda pigeonholed into fighting Goht one specific way.

I was one of the stupid people who didn't realize that

you were supposed to fight Goht in Goron form

, and just stood on the snowy hills of the arena in one spot shooting Fire Arrows at him as he ran past because I didn't know what else to do. It wasn't until years later that I learned the "proper" way to fight Goht. The smack of my palm hitting my face was probably heard throughout the whole city.

But, the point is: you can choose how you want to fight the bosses. Not even the NES Zelda games allowed as much variety against the bosses as Majora's Mask does.

Is it that hard to transition from overhead 2D to 3D? If you think about it, 3D is just an upgrade to overhead view with some variations based on height. I would suspect everything in Zelda 1 can be done in a 3D game with good camera.

Eh, if that was the case then there would be a lot more "good" 3D Sonic Games. Although that series suffers in 3D more due to the fact that he's supposed to be all GOTTA GO FASTER than the fact it's a lot harder to make an adaptive AI when you need to take 3 dimensions into account.

Sonic is a side-scrolling platformer, though.

When it comes to 3D transition, I see a side view more difficult than an overhead.

raekuul wrote:Eh, if that was the case then there would be a lot more "good" 3D Sonic Games. Although that series suffers in 3D more due to the fact that he's supposed to be all GOTTA GO FASTER than the fact it's a lot harder to make an adaptive AI when you need to take 3 dimensions into account.

Isn't the problem with the 3D Sonic games more that they missed the point of the series? Sure, Sonic goes fast in the originals, but that's not the be all and end all of it. There's actual platforming, not just running fast from left to right, and you can choose your speed.

On the topic of Zelda, multiple games have demonstrated that you can make a 3D fantasy action-adventure with multiple enemies attacking that are a threat. And no, I don't mean Hyrule Warriors. Although I still haven't played it, if it's anything like Dynasty Warriors, you're so overpowered that the enemies aren't a threat then either. They're just a horde of filler. I'm referring here to games like Dark Souls, and to games like Skyrim. Everyone knows the former is challenging, but as anyone who's been surrounded by enemies in the latter - like ambushed inside a fort - can attest to, is dangerous as well. There is no technical obstacle to making a 3D Zelda that plays like the original game. The only obstacle is that Nintendo don't want to.