raocow's talkhaus

Here's a summary of all the level features previous Mario games had that MM isn't getting. Pretty disappointing...


I'm still gonna enjoy the hell out of playing and ranking other people's levels though. It's just definitely nowhere near as customizable as it should be.

What a ridiculously pedantic image.

Here's a list of things that weren't included with my brand new Porsche

*picture of a garbage dump*

Some of those are incredibly redundant. No secret exits so a lock isn't needed, Ball 'n Chain serves the same function as the Fire Bar, POW works similar to the Silver P-Switch, etc.

Telamon wrote:as someone who's been deeply suspicious of Mario Maker, and on some level believes Nintendo is going to use it as a pretext for pulling all rom-hack and smbx videos off of youtube, I'm just quietly laughing to myself over the so-far-disappointed result.

Except the lowest review I've seen it given so far was an 8.5. The people here aren't happy because they're all used to being able to designing levels and were looking for something that went above and beyond. The majority of people are overjoyed with just what's being offered.

#surveybias

Argumentable wrote:Here's a list of things that weren't included with my brand new Porsche

*picture of a garbage dump*

Skimming this thread, all I can think is RIP SMW romhacking. Your impending brutal murder from youtube by nintendo's lawyers will keep their new baby safe.

Horikawa Otane wrote:Really, I'd think the thing most people would be disappointed by is the lack of programming. Either in straight scripting or in something akin to the Events and Layers system in SMBX. Or something even simpler.

Like I realise they wanted to make it super accessible, and that's laudable (and gives Mario Maker an identity in the market), but it seems to me that it'd lack staying power? Like you can only play so many levels before you start to see major patterns and things start running together. Scripting adds an extra layer of interactivity to a level for the player (ie, press this switch and X happens, fulfil conditions Y and Z and Q happens) that can keep levels really fresh and allow different goals to be set on the path to the main goal. I don't think accessibility and the addition of a simple programmatic option are necessarily incompatible either.

I'm sure there's going to be a lot of really great stuff coming from Mario Maker, I'm just a little bit doubtful the game is still going to be played in any major way 2-3 years from now.

Agreed. I've seen people on youtube already desperately trying to force the player to fight a boss, which I feel is as much a part of Super Mario games as being able to warp between sections.

Nintendo added a certain layer of depth to the game by allowing all these crazy NPC interactions, and I'm sure they'll expand upon it by adding more enemies later on as DLC, be it paid or free. But even with that layer of depth, it lacks this kind of variety you mentioned. Everyone can only choose from this one set of mechanics, and neither can one mix them, or add little features such as a forced boss battle without abusing a boss' mechanics.

Probably the coolest thing about Mario Maker, in my opinion, is the shell-shield you can put on Mario's head. It looks like it's lots of fun to use and can be used in other ways than as an overpowered shield for anything coming from above. For example, for escort missions.

Horikawa Otane wrote:Really, I'd think the thing most people would be disappointed by is the lack of programming. Either in straight scripting or in something akin to the Events and Layers system in SMBX. Or something even simpler.

Like I realise they wanted to make it super accessible, and that's laudable (and gives Mario Maker an identity in the market), but it seems to me that it'd lack staying power? Like you can only play so many levels before you start to see major patterns and things start running together. Scripting adds an extra layer of interactivity to a level for the player (ie, press this switch and X happens, fulfil conditions Y and Z and Q happens) that can keep levels really fresh and allow different goals to be set on the path to the main goal. I don't think accessibility and the addition of a simple programmatic option are necessarily incompatible either.

I'm sure there's going to be a lot of really great stuff coming from Mario Maker, I'm just a little bit doubtful the game is still going to be played in any major way 2-3 years from now.

it depends if nintendo does what they're doing to smash bros and splatoon, and continue updating it. if they can add in new mechanics and give the players more things they can do, even if its not on the same level as smbx, it can still be effective.

That said, since a lot of this stuff is prety basic and consistant, id expect it to get a hardcore niche group over the years that'll look like the hardcore level makers for smbx who will just eventually make levels that will push the game engine limits and your knowledge of it.

"Why doesn't the very first level-making tool Nintendo has ever offered have all the features of a PC game engine?"

Not to sound like a broken record but SMW hacking has now been going on for more than 10 years. And even with the somewhat recent accessibility of external tools and ASM documentation, vanilla contests are still going stronger and stronger. Not to mention it'll be 10 times easier to directly play levels from other people, and there will be 100 times more of them.

Like, most people that use SMBX in the first place and to a lesser extent SMW actually use it for its accessibility, the "drag-and-drop" type of level building, they don't give a shit about events or whatever, so mario maker will be a godsend to them. THEY are the majority in this. I mean, sure, you might find the levels they make less interesting depending on what you like, but there is no way in hell the game will die before nintendo decides to shut it down, not with nintendo's huge fanbase.

Also, most level editors for other games are also like this and a lot are pretty successful (the other thread on this topic recently reminded me of Trackmania which is a good example I think)

Something something WarioWare DIY

Had an events system so I'm surprised this game doesn't have any. It's possible people didn't understand it though.

WWDIY needed one because each microgame plays under different rules.

I imagine it doesnt because they're aiming for simplicity what with the super friendly hud, and the you-start-with-just-blocks-and-maybe-tomorrow-we'll-actually-give-you-stuff dripfeed of level materials.

If you even know what events are and how they work, you might be a bit above this editor.

Jesuiscontent wrote: I mean, sure, you might find the levels they make less interesting depending on what you like, but there is no way in hell the game will die before nintendo decides to shut it down, not with nintendo's huge fanbase.

Yeah, I don't think many people are afraid this is going to die prematurely. I think people are afraid it's going to kill what's left of romhacking (or motivate Nintendo's lawyers to kill it), leaving us with a replacement we like less.

Ditocoaf wrote:

Jesuiscontent wrote: I mean, sure, you might find the levels they make less interesting depending on what you like, but there is no way in hell the game will die before nintendo decides to shut it down, not with nintendo's huge fanbase.

Yeah, I don't think many people are afraid this is going to die prematurely. I think people are afraid it's going to kill what's left of romhacking (or motivate Nintendo's lawyers to kill it), leaving us with a replacement we like less.

I always figured the point of a mario x thing was to eventually convert it to full original graphics for the eventual day nintendo suddenly started caring about romhacking (they are not going to care about romhacking)

Leet wrote:"Why doesn't the very first level-making tool Nintendo has ever offered have all the features of a PC game engine?"

And it wasn't the first editor they had ever made.

And they think they have the right to say it's the only option anyone should ever use for mario.

And we're not even asking for something that level of customizability, just a simple events interface which could potentially make levels at least a little more diverse than "make cool looking enemies here."

a few monthes ago I'd be annoyed/worried but honestly, after the fairly generous dlc of mario kart, then smash, then splatoon, it's pretty much garanteed that they'll add just more 'stuff' in general.

what they REALLY need to do though is add a mario 64 style. Still 2d gameplay, but with janky low poly version of everything. heck yeah!!

It IS interesting to see how much was left out (including basic stuff like slopes and many enemies), but to be honest Nintendo hasn't used the more complex stuff like events nearly as much as a lot of hacks and fan games in SMBX have. You can probably replicate almost every official level from Mario 1, 3, World (sorta) and NSMB (sorta), which really shows how complex the levels are, haha~

But like raocow said, given their track record with DLC, I wouldn't doubt the possibility of DLC that adds these things in the future. Pretty much all of Nintendo's DLC has been reasonable so far, so hopefully it isn't too bad.

You guys can bitch about it all you want, I'm gonna buy it and have fun cause Mario is cool

In all seriousness I get that you guys want some more complex stuff, but I'm fine with something simpler. I've been an impressive range of levels and I am of the opinion that restrictions breed creativity. And looking at the list how much of that stuff would you REALLY use? I'm sure there will be some variance but there's shit on here that isn't used anyway (see: years of SMW hacking and most SMW enemies on the list)

I also don't think it's really feasible to include everything (though I'm sure if they wanted to they could) and if you're going to make a list like that you have to include all the enemies from the game boy games too. I would buy an original Super Mario Land pack and make Super Mario Land levels (which had no slopes and was fun - I'm proving a point here)

I'm pretty much 100% with you on this, Argumentable.

At the very start of the announcements and stuff I was a little bit cynical about the whole thing but since then I realised that was a stupid position to take, and there's a bunch of stuff that actually ISN'T in x or smw. Don't focus on what isn't there, but on what is !

Looking forward to friday/this weekend !!!

What the Heck when?

I say heck because hell isn't gonna fly with Nintendo looking over things...

raocow wrote:Looking forward to friday/this weekend !!!

wow raocow I knew you liked destroying the world but CELEBRATING TERRORISM!?!?!?!?!?

also yeah. I'm siding with argu here, for once. This is made for people of all ages to have fun with, not to be a professional design tool like hacking smw and the advances with smbx are now.

It's not really just about "Hey, x enemy or level aspect isn't in the game, that should be there!" but it's mostly just about the fact that there's not really a whole lot you can do with what's there. Sure, there's a lot of cool enemy combinations... but what's the real joy in that when you're still restricted to a set time, and you pretty much HAVE to go in a linear direction to advance? (of course, it may not be so linear you can only move left to right... but it doesn't allow for secret exits or anything)

You may have fun seeing all the small details you can pull off with making a bunch of flying stuff or such, but the core shape of the level can't be changed. You must have one exit. You must have a set amount of time to get there. And while it's not 100% forced into being, Mario Maker also very heavily suggests the idea that you don't have to do something in order to advance in the level, like solve a puzzle or use an item. The situations where people do get around that somehow (according to a few "best levels so far" videos) feels like something out of SMBX's first invasion game.

And then the shot at how "Vanilla" is becoming popular. Thing is, both SMW hacking and SMBX have a wide variety of features, and the enjoyment of Vanilla comes as a result of seeing how more basic features can shine in comparison to the more complex features. Mario Maker... doesn't really have that idea of level complexity yet. You could say "hey, let's make levels which don't have this one thing in them!" but the sense of Vanilla doesn't apply because there's no lesser standard you're truly comparing it to. It's possible that contests could be made in the flavor of "make a level which looks the most like this mario game," but that's kind of like doing the same thing for smbx. There's all these little details which look weird in the end result because they weren't in the source material. (see: Mario maker's shadows and requirement to hit SMW exit tape)

Remember, though, that Nintendo's gradually starting to crack down on ROM hacking, which may eventually extend into SMBX once they find out about it. Mario Maker may very well be the only resource we'd have left regarding making mario stuff. (I will admit PGE would still exist, but I can't speak much for that) And if it is, Nintendo really has to start stepping up on its game if they expect Maker to have the kind of lifespan that ROM hacking has held. If they even expect that, which I'm sure they don't.