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Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

do you like them video games? what about those there romhacks? well pop on in here and talk about them then! what are you waiting for?!
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Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Ashan » 3 years ago

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I just noticed we lost our Mighty No. 9 thread in the Talkhaustrophe, so here it is again.
Uh...

*jokes about Streetfighter and MegaMan and stuff*
Okay I think that's where we left off.

In latest news, I guess they hired some radfem SJW for social media type stuff and people aren't happy about it so there's some drama for you.
Last edited by Ashan on 13 Dec 2013, 23:13, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Bwarch » 3 years ago

Couple articles for people who wanted to know more about the community manager that people seem to be upset about (I question that since this is my first time hearing about it though, but eh, I live under a rock)

http://wiiudaily.com/2013/12/mighty-no-9-outrage/

http://nerditis.com/2013/12/12/just-lik ... ndal-ever/

Also Mighty No. 9 is going to be in Yaiba: Ninja Gaiden Z as costume DLC.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/12/12/52059 ... a-gaiden-z
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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Sturg » 3 years ago

Yeah, I'm not so educated on the situation so I have no right to comment on the whole drama thing. But I got a big kick out of the Youtube comments on Retspurae's recent video.

I've kinda zipped through the articles but I still am kind of just 'whatever" on the whole thing.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Bean » 3 years ago

As far as I know, she did some fibbing on the first day and showed off some of her art which caused an uproar. Don't care as it won't affect the final product. It's been three years since a Mega Man game was made from this team, and I'm ready for their spiritual successor while Capcom continues to do nothing with the original worth spending money on.

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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Ashan » 3 years ago

According to this video, she will have an affect on the final game. They're letting her design robots even though she says she's never played MegaMan before.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Bean » 3 years ago

They still have the ability to veto her designs if they don't go with the feel of the game is what I mean. I'm not too concerned either way. I'm just into it for that Mega Man-esque action.

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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Bwarch » 3 years ago

Pretty much my thoughts as well. If they work like any game company does her designs will be peer reviewed.

And you don't have to have played the Megaman games to get the gist of the art design through research.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

If people think that suggesting that less than 100% of the characters in a game be male is an indicator of "radical social justice warrior feminism" then they have some seriously distorted views and quite probably issues too. It's not like they're hasn't already been a canon female Mega Man character anyway, because there was in the form of Splash Woman. Besides that, ultimately they're all robots. Does it really matter what gender they appear to be? As robots, they're fundamentally sexless anyway, so if you really have an issue with your PC being female you can take solace in that. Personally I can't see the issue in the first place. I know some people say that they can't play games where the PC is a woman or gay or both or whatever, because they aren't those things and so it ruins the immersion. I'm willing to bet though that they have no problem with the PC looking a lot better than they do and generally being a lot better at things than they are generally, so what they're really asking for is a PC that can be their own Mary Sue insert. If you really can't play a game where you're not a Mary Sue insert then perhaps you should examine your own self-esteem.

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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby cheez8 » 3 years ago

It took me a shameful amount of time to realize "PC" didn't mean "Personal Computer" there.

From what I can tell people are kind of being ridiculous and jumping the gun in how they're reacting to this, but that's not to say everything will work out fine. It's just... nothing's even happened yet. And unless she somehow manages to influence the plot or writing, things are probably going to be just fine. Heck, even if the main character becomes female it really isn't a problem unless the writing suddenly takes the direction of "oh no, men are the plague of society and must be silenced" which I just can't see happening.

I'm definitely going to keep looking forward to this game, and that enthusiasm won't be dampened without seeing actual changes for the worse. This has yet to affect the game, so I don't see it as a problem yet.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Ashan » 3 years ago

I don't think it's the idea of having the main character a girl that people are upset about. It's more that some random chick is trying to turn the character into a girl for the sake of her being a girl.

It would be the same reaction if some masculist working on a Tomb Raider game decided the character should be a guy just for the sake of it being a guy.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

Ashan wrote:I don't think it's the idea of having the main character a girl that people are upset about. It's more that some random chick is trying to turn the character into a girl for the sake of her being a girl.

It would be the same reaction if some masculist working on a Tomb Raider game decided the character should be a guy just for the sake of it being a guy.
That's not a fair comparison. Lara Croft already exists as a character and has been in many games. She's been established as female. We're not talking about a game with an established main character here. Beck hasn't been in a single game yet. Making Beck male is just as much an active decision as making Beck female is.

I've seen this argument before, where the strawman question "Why not make the main character a woman/black/whatever?" is countered with the strawman answer "Why make the main character a woman/black/whatever", usually in the form of a comic. It's a flawed argument because it assumes that being a straight white male is the default state of all video game characters unless they are designed otherwise and, by implication, the default state of humanity. On demographics alone, it's not. The gender split worldwide is virtually even, and Caucasians aren't the largest broad ethnic group by a long shot.

The default state of a character is to have no characteristics whatsoever. Assigning them any characteristic, including making them male or female, is an active choice either way. So there's already been some concept art showing Beck as male. So what? It's not a finished design. There was concept art showing Conker as cute and adorable. No-one complained when the finished product was different in that case.

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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby ano0maly » 3 years ago

I personally think that if Mighty No. 9 project was going to have a female main character, that should've been presented near the beginning. It's a more risky move to change main character in the middle of the development because people may get the impression that you're changing things around just for the sake of having a female lead, with no other basis for it.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby MoneyMan » 3 years ago

My main problem is less what she's trying to shove in, and more that she just walked in and started trying to bend the game to her whims.

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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

MoneyMan wrote:My main problem is less what she's trying to shove in, and more that she just walked in and started trying to bend the game to her whims.
She didn't "just walk in", she was hired. I don't know about you but when someone hires me I'm under the impression that it's because they actually want me to do something.

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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Ashan » 3 years ago

Actually it's apparently because her boyfriend was on the team and he convinced them to give her a job.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

Ashan wrote:Actually it's apparently because her boyfriend was on the team and he convinced them to give her a job.
Nepotism is the best way to get a job. It's not what you know, it's who you know. Or, in the words of Super Hans, it's not who you know, it's who you blow.

In any case, how she got the job is immaterial, the point is she has the job and so it is her function to change things.

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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby PichuVSLink » 3 years ago

Doctor Shemp wrote:
Ashan wrote:Actually it's apparently because her boyfriend was on the team and he convinced them to give her a job.
Nepotism is the best way to get a job. It's not what you know, it's who you know. Or, in the words of Super Hans, it's not who you know, it's who you blow.

In any case, how she got the job is immaterial, the point is she has the job and so it is her function to change things.
I think the point that they're trying to make is that, although technically, yes she does have the authority to make those changes, she only got the job because someone she knew was involved. Morally, it's just upsetting that she's in a position that she didn't really earn or achieve in any way.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Bwarch » 3 years ago

"Mighty No. 9 thread also known as let's talk about the community director thread"

This is just getting really silly when we start talking about whether she earned the job or not.

It almost borders on attacking. And a whole bunch of this is blown completely out of proportion.

The final product will come out and we probably won't know what the hell she even DESIGNED, what decisions of hers made it into the game. That's how inconsequential this is in my eyes.

And honestly, some of her wants I'd be fine with! Making Call playable would be nifty.

Uuuuuugh. I regret bringing the controversy to the thread if it just turned into this.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Bean » 3 years ago

I'm also in the mood to see a playable Call for the main game. We're already getting her as part of the co-op challenge mode goal anyway.

To get back to discussion of the game, what is everyone's favorite boss design? I'm partial to the water one (No. 2) and the sniper (No. 8) myself.

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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby MoneyMan » 3 years ago

Doctor Shemp wrote:
Ashan wrote:Actually it's apparently because her boyfriend was on the team and he convinced them to give her a job.
Nepotism is the best way to get a job. It's not what you know, it's who you know. Or, in the words of Super Hans, it's not who you know, it's who you blow.

In any case, how she got the job is immaterial, the point is she has the job and so it is her function to change things.
But she's changing things for herself, trying to make a game different than was promised. When the first thing we see of her is her trying to change the main character, it can be assumed that she's trying to force some pretty big changes.

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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Bwarch » 3 years ago

"Force" "Change"

She's not in a leadership role. We don't even know if she's put forward this request to the team beyond just posting the comment after she became a backer. Every single thing she puts forward goes through a process of approval through the team. Her titles are art designer and community director, neither are leadership roles.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

PichuVSLink wrote:
Doctor Shemp wrote:
Ashan wrote:Actually it's apparently because her boyfriend was on the team and he convinced them to give her a job.
Nepotism is the best way to get a job. It's not what you know, it's who you know. Or, in the words of Super Hans, it's not who you know, it's who you blow.

In any case, how she got the job is immaterial, the point is she has the job and so it is her function to change things.
I think the point that they're trying to make is that, although technically, yes she does have the authority to make those changes, she only got the job because someone she knew was involved. Morally, it's just upsetting that she's in a position that she didn't really earn or achieve in any way.
You can't say she has less moral authority than the other employees unless you know that her case is unique. Do you really believe that none of the men in the company got their jobs because they were friends with someone already in the company? That no-one gave out a job to help out a mate or overlooked a slightly better candidate because they were friends with another one? This is how you get a good job. Who you know will always trump what you know in any field. There is no way she's the only one who got in that way, and so she does not have any less "moral authority".

Why is moral authority even relevant anyway? She's not making any moral decisions. She's not handling a refugee crisis, she's helping to make a video game.

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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Aposke » 3 years ago

Doctor Shemp wrote:
PichuVSLink wrote:
Doctor Shemp wrote:Nepotism is the best way to get a job. It's not what you know, it's who you know. Or, in the words of Super Hans, it's not who you know, it's who you blow.

In any case, how she got the job is immaterial, the point is she has the job and so it is her function to change things.
I think the point that they're trying to make is that, although technically, yes she does have the authority to make those changes, she only got the job because someone she knew was involved. Morally, it's just upsetting that she's in a position that she didn't really earn or achieve in any way.
You can't say she has less moral authority than the other employees unless you know that her case is unique. Do you really believe that none of the men in the company got their jobs because they were friends with someone already in the company? That no-one gave out a job to help out a mate or overlooked a slightly better candidate because they were friends with another one? This is how you get a good job. Who you know will always trump what you know in any field. There is no way she's the only one who got in that way, and so she does not have any less "moral authority".

Why is moral authority even relevant anyway? She's not making any moral decisions. She's not handling a refugee crisis, she's helping to make a video game.
Depending on how seriously you take a problem, moral questions can always be important. After all, when you discuss different positions on an issue like this, it always boils down to the justification of your arguments, and very often, those are moral in nature.

That said, I completely agree with Pichu and Ashan that the way she got her job gives her less moral authority and rightfully leads people to take her less seriously. What you're doing, shemp, is arguing with the "common-practice" fallacy, i.e. saying something is "okay" or even "good" just because many people are doing it. Strictly rationally speaking, nepotism should not be a way to get a job at all, simply because your skills in a given field should count more than your social capabilities (one you can control freely, the other one is always determined by factors outside of the individuals reach, at least in part). Nepotism favors individuals who are outgoing and "fit with more people" (ironically, these individuals often end up having less of a personality this way), which comes very close to a systematic exclusion of introverted persons who, by their nature, will have less connections on the job market.
If you gave me the choice between employing someone who's socially recluded and talks only as much as absolutely needed, but is the best coder I've ever seen, and an outgoing and charismatic but "average bachelor-degree" coder, I'd choose the first one without even thinking.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

Aposke wrote:Depending on how seriously you take a problem, moral questions can always be important. After all, when you discuss different positions on an issue like this, it always boils down to the justification of your arguments, and very often, those are moral in nature.

That said, I completely agree with Pichu and Ashan that the way she got her job gives her less moral authority and rightfully leads people to take her less seriously. What you're doing, shemp, is arguing with the "common-practice" fallacy, i.e. saying something is "okay" or even "good" just because many people are doing it. Strictly rationally speaking, nepotism should not be a way to get a job at all, simply because your skills in a given field should count more than your social capabilities (one you can control freely, the other one is always determined by factors outside of the individuals reach, at least in part). Nepotism favors individuals who are outgoing and "fit with more people" (ironically, these individuals often end up having less of a personality this way), which comes very close to a systematic exclusion of introverted persons who, by their nature, will have less connections on the job market.
If you gave me the choice between employing someone who's socially recluded and talks only as much as absolutely needed, but is the best coder I've ever seen, and an outgoing and charismatic but "average bachelor-degree" coder, I'd choose the first one without even thinking.
I'm not aiming to say it's "okay", I'm aiming to say that it's common practice and so it's unfair to single out one example. If you judge someone who got their position through connections to be morally inferior to someone who got it on merit, you cannot say that they are morally inferior to the other employees unless you know how they got their positions. You cannot simply assume that they all got their positions on merit. Not that the two are mutually exclusive anyway. It's rare that even excellent connections will outweigh complete incompetence.

And in regards to your point about introverted persons, the problem with hiring a social recluse who's a great coder is that they're not going to be able to work with people. Unless your coding team is a one-man team i.e. not a team at all then you're better off hiring worse coders that can actually work with each other over better coders that can't work together and have to go Rambo.

I also dispute that outgoing people have less of a personality (and to avoid accusations of bias, I'll reveal that I would consider myself to occupy the middle ground between outgoing and introverted) and, in any case, an introvert could have the best personality in the world, but what does it matter if they never show it to anyone?

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Re: Mighty No. 9 [TALKHAUSTROPHE REPOST]

Postby Aposke » 3 years ago

Doctor Shemp wrote:I'm not aiming to say it's "okay", I'm aiming to say that it's common practice and so it's unfair to single out one example. If you judge someone who got their position through connections to be morally inferior to someone who got it on merit, you cannot say that they are morally inferior to the other employees unless you know how they got their positions. You cannot simply assume that they all got their positions on merit. Not that the two are mutually exclusive anyway. It's rare that even excellent connections will outweigh complete incompetence.

And in regards to your point about introverted persons, the problem with hiring a social recluse who's a great coder is that they're not going to be able to work with people. Unless your coding team is a one-man team i.e. not a team at all then you're better off hiring worse coders that can actually work with each other over better coders that can't work together and have to go Rambo.

I also dispute that outgoing people have less of a personality (and to avoid accusations of bias, I'll reveal that I would consider myself to occupy the middle ground between outgoing and introverted) and, in any case, an introvert could have the best personality in the world, but what does it matter if they never show it to anyone?
Well, it's the one example we know about. I agree with you when you say she's probably getting too much backlash for what little effect she might be having on the finished game, but I still find some points of that criticism justified (like the one I was arguing for).

Also, I think you're misunderstanding what "introversion" means. First and foremost, it has to do with the principle of getting tired by social interaction and not feeling a need for it "by itself". That doesn't mean introverted persons have no teamworking capabilities, but rather that they just don't feel a need to social interaction just for it's own sake. When they applied for a job in a coding team, I'm pretty sure they considered the fact that they'd have to work together with other people and felt that the job was promising enough to give the social interaction that comes with it meaning.
I'm not talking about people with severe anxiety disorder or something, and even those can often work very well in social environments as long as they're given some time to get accustomed to things.

The tiny statement I put in brackets about extroverted people having less of a personality wasn't really a serious statement, but rather something I feel I notice while getting to know these people. Whether someone has "more personality" than someone else is pretty much entirely subjective anyways, so I didn't really want to make an actual argument out of that.

Also, don't worry about bias accusations – we're all biased.
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