raocow's talkhaus

Doctor Shemp wrote:There's also the mentality that all competition must have all luck stripped out of it which is again nonsense. There are many RTS games played at the highest level on random maps. These are predictable to the extent that the random map generation follows certain patterns and can be broadly predicted but are impossible to predict specifically. Therefore there is an element of luck. According to the Smash mindset, none of this is real competition. In a non-video game example, all Scrabble tournaments aren't real competitions either since there's luck involved in what letters you draw. The idea that competitions can't involve an element of luck and the idea that items and stage hazards require no skill at all are both complete nonsense.

This is where you're wrong. While obviously it's more complicated than this, in general the rule of making a game competitively viable is to remove as many usages of the RNG as possible. Where it is used, it should be inconsequential in the long run. The issue with Smash is that when the right item spawns right in front of you and provides you with an advantage, it can be game changing. In a competitive game, where the goal is straight up to win, this is not something the participants are going to pleased by. Especially when they're on the losing end. And neither will many of the viewers be pleased when the competitor they were supporting gets screwed out of a clearly deserved win because the RNG said so.

Any time you use the RNG in a game that's intended to be played competitively you're leaving an opportunity for a close match to be thrown to one sides favor for something that's out of their control or, depending on the severity, for a not even close match to be turned around and for the clearly superior player to lose. This pisses off the player, this pisses off many of the viewers, and in the long run this harms the game's competitive appeal.

MrDeePay wrote:

Doctor Shemp wrote:And there's the tourney mindset subtly creeping in: that playing with the default settings (i.e. with items) and playing competitively are mutually exclusive. This is nonsense. It completely ignores both the skill in knowing how to use each item to its full potential and, more importantly, the skill in being able to react quickly and correctly to rapidly changing circumstances, e.g. a bomb appearing in front of you or a stage hazard.

9 times out of 10, a competitive player will kick your ass even with items on or on a stage that is banned in high-level play. You think a "high-tier" character was dominant now? Give them items!

You're arguing a different point. I'm not saying I'd beat tourney players just by turning on items. I'm saying that the idea that they take no skill to use is wrong.

MrDeePay wrote:

Doctor Shemp wrote:There's also the mentality that all competition must have all luck stripped out of it which is again nonsense. There are many RTS games played at the highest level on random maps. These are predictable to the extent that the random map generation follows certain patterns and can be broadly predicted but are impossible to predict specifically. Therefore there is an element of luck.

If they're predictable in their patterns, then it's not really luck.

It is to an extent. I'll give you a concrete example. In Age of Empires II, you know that there will be the following near to your start position:

• A herd of deer
• Two or three flocks of sheep at different distances
• A close boar and a far boar
• A small source of gold and a medium source of gold
• A source of stone
• An area of forage bushes
• Two or three woods

What you don't know is which direction each will be in and to my knowledge knowing one or some can't be used to predict the direction of the others. If you look in the wrong direction, that's lost time and lost resources if the opposition can steal your far boar and far sheep before you can find them. Past the opening game, strategically important terrain such as cliffs and rivers are randomised.

MrDeePay wrote:

Doctor Shemp wrote:The idea that competitions can't involve an element of luck and the idea that items and stage hazards require no skill at all are both complete nonsense.

Not when the luck is to an extent that it can completely turn the tables between two similarly-matched players.

It won't turn the tables unless you lack the skill to react quickly enough to it. Whether an item capsule contains a fan or a bomb is irrelevant if your opponent can't hit you with it. In any case, statistically luck will even out over time.

Doctor Shemp wrote:It won't turn the tables unless you lack the skill to react quickly enough to it. Whether an item capsule contains a fan or a bomb is irrelevant if your opponent can't hit you with it. In any case, statistically luck will even out over time.

Or if the person using the item is also skilled, they can utilize it to all but garuntee victory. At some High level play with two equally skilled opponents, someone can easily get the most out of some small minor advantage to get victory. Like if you get a home run bat, and know how to knock a person off the stage without a smash attack, you can pretty much guarantee yourself a KO by accurately throwing it at the opponent while they're trying to recover, because if they try to dodge it, they'll waste their air recovery and just plummet regardless.

On a more important note, did anyone else notice that in both for fun and for glory, there where no stock matches? I, and probably a lot of others enjoy stock matches over timed smash matches, and leaving out the option to play stock with randoms online is rather disappointing

Stock matches have the potential to go on forever. (Get one KO, run away, turtle, stall, etc.), which is why Timed Stock matches are usually ideal.

I'm sure it'll be an option in the final release, though.

I agree with all Ignoritus said.

Doctor Shemp wrote:

MrDeePay wrote:

Doctor Shemp wrote:The idea that competitions can't involve an element of luck and the idea that items and stage hazards require no skill at all are both complete nonsense.

Not when the luck is to an extent that it can completely turn the tables between two similarly-matched players.

It won't turn the tables unless you lack the skill to react quickly enough to it. Whether an item capsule contains a fan or a bomb is irrelevant if your opponent can't hit you with it. In any case, statistically luck will even out over time.

The problem is sometimes you can't react, because the items spawn randomly, you can't predict where it will spawn.
What if you were doing an aerial attack and then a capsule spawn right in front of you and explode? Or what if suddenly a star spawn right above your opponent?
When people play competitively, they play to win. If they don't use items, it's because they agreed that it makes the game too much luck-based and can greatly favor players just because they were lucky.

I definitely think there could be room for an intermediate tier, with Smash Balls and devastating items disabled (most explosives and AoE weapons), but keeping the small hand-held ones like the laser gun, lip's stick, etc. using Random stages like Fun but removing things like Boss attacks (Yellow Devil/Ridley), or sticking to a range that includes most stages minus the most event-heavy (whatever the new generation's Poké Floats is). Essentially a middle-ground for players tired of playing with chaotic superweapons and semi-random explosions, but not eager to sacrifice elements of gameplay down to a bare minimum.

I would like to play For Glory, but I strongly suspect I'll end up playing For Fun almost always.

I will forever play on the for fun mode. I have no desire to ever do the other mode.

I played online once in SSBB. Got fanned to 300% by 3 persons. All the time.

The End.

Its a true story.

SSBB had reeeeeally weak online experience if we're being honest. Connection lag out the wazoo, it was so unplayable.

Pretty sure they're going to turn that around this time and it'll be great to battle online if one wishes to.

I'll be ok if the online experience isn't great as long as the game had DS download or local play because you'd probably get the smoothest connection that way.

Moped wrote:I'll be ok if the online experience isn't great as long as the game had DS download or local play because you'd probably get the smoothest connection that way.

If they wont do it like that I wont buy the 3DS version. (Cause Im very sure Im the only one I know who would buy it for 3DS.)

Depending on who you mean by "only person". Like we've said, it's going to be very tempting for Smash players to pick up the 3DS version since it's out like 5 or 6 months before the Wii U version.

Bwarch wrote:Depending on who you mean by "only person". Like we've said, it's going to be very tempting for Smash players to pick up the 3DS version since it's out like 5 or 6 months before the Wii U version.

But I live for the multiplayer thrill.

I love to fight against my friends. (who normally kick the crap out of me

FluffiMasta wrote:

Bwarch wrote:Depending on who you mean by "only person". Like we've said, it's going to be very tempting for Smash players to pick up the 3DS version since it's out like 5 or 6 months before the Wii U version.

But I live for the multiplayer thrill.

I love to fight against my friends. (who normally kick the crap out of me

Who's to say that the 3DS version won't have online multiplayer? Mario Kart 7 pulled it off.

Ivy wrote:

FluffiMasta wrote:

Bwarch wrote:Depending on who you mean by "only person". Like we've said, it's going to be very tempting for Smash players to pick up the 3DS version since it's out like 5 or 6 months before the Wii U version.

But I live for the multiplayer thrill.

I love to fight against my friends. (who normally kick the crap out of me

Who's to say that the 3DS version won't have online multiplayer? Mario Kart 7 pulled it off.

It won't have local multiplayer though unless you all have 3DSs. Smash Bros has always been a popular party game. Bring a bunch of friends around and play Smash, loser of each round gets replaced by a new guy or something like that if there's more than 4 of you there. Even if you did all have the 3DSs you couldn't have everyone who isn't playing still watching and cheering on people.

Doctor Shemp wrote: It won't have local multiplayer though unless you all have 3DSs. Smash Bros has always been a popular party game. Bring a bunch of friends around and play Smash, loser of each round gets replaced by a new guy or something like that if there's more than 4 of you there. Even if you did all have the 3DSs you couldn't have everyone who isn't playing still watching and cheering on people.

Ah, I misread. Yeah, hopefully they support local as well.

I saw that on Miiverse, great on Reggie for participating like that.

I escpecially liked this part:

"I am a new peripheral made by Mr. Myamo-"
"Forget it, I'm going home."

So... anyone going to Best Buy during E3?

there aren't any best buys in my immediate area, but i'm hoping i can make a trip to visit my friend about ten hours north of where i live time out well with E3 so we can both play smash during that time.

i'm really curious as to what the demo will have to offer! i'm expecting maybe a few stages, tops, as well as a small chunk of the roster with a minimum of mario, sonic, and mega man to play as. really though, as long as i get to try my hand at little mac, i'll be satisfied.

OK... if there won't be a golden sun char at least have ganondorf back in, preferably with a moveset that makes sense based on the games, not based off c falcon.

cool!! i was just complaining a few weeks ago about the lack of that

Unless you can play other games on the Wii U with that GameCube controller, I think I'll stick to the pro controller

I'll probably get it. I still have four GameCube controllers and it's the Smash layout my friends and I are most used to. Plus I don't have any Pro controllers.

InsaneIntentions1 wrote:Unless you can play other games on the Wii U with that GameCube controller, I think I'll stick to the pro controller

Well at least you can play Wii games with a Gamecube Controller now. I bought the stupid Wii model that doesn't have GC stuff but now I'll be able to play Tales of Symphonia again.....once I get a Wii U.